US Politics Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2020

[cduggles]

Unfortunately, this thread will be topical for the foreseeable future.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Regarding the shooting in TX:

News video (they never actually show the shooter die, but all activity leading up to it)
[/QUOTE]

And a still shot from the Pro-Gun crowd

 

[alasdairm]

in any other developed country, a gunfight involving 6 armed people in a church would be a total head-shaking, what-the-fuck moment. in the u.s.a. it's proof, for many, of the country's greatness...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

alasdair

 

[SKL]

in any other developed country, a gunfight involving 6 armed people in a church would be a total head-shaking, what-the-fuck moment. in the u.s.a. it's proof, for many, of the country's greatness...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

alasdair

Are you implying that the church or the CCW holders did something wrong? BTW they were members of the church's security team not random gun nuts. The fact that churches need a security team is sad but congruent with what happened. An interesting fact here is that there was evidently a warning issued at the highest federal level about potential attacks on "places of worship." it was probably due to an escalation of antisemitic attacks by Blacks in NYC not this though. The guy was some random scizo. The guy he shot got up to greet him for precisely this reason. Doing the genuine Christian thing. RIP.

 

[Infernal]

in any other developed country, a gunfight involving 6 armed people in a church would be a total head-shaking, what-the-fuck moment. in the u.s.a. it's proof, for many, of the country's greatness...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

alasdair

In this country too I'm sure. I would imagine that if you asked those churchgoers that they are quite satisfied that people were freely and legally armed to stop the random violence. I would imagine that in many other places the same thoughts would be echoed. And to be fair, I can imagine that like you there are many people who shake their head and wonder why such a horrible thing occurs and why guns are even a necessity. Let's not lose sight of the idea that yes, there are weirdos who think the best thing in the world is to shoot people but I would guess that most people aren't for celebrating the offense but the defense of the worshipers.

With that said, this will continue to occur at an increasingly steady pace as the years go on if we don't come to grips with the root causes here and I'm not talking about gun ownership. I think the much deeper issue is one of alienation.

 

[alasdairm]

BTW they were members of the church's security team not random gun nuts. The fact that churches need a security team is sad

it is sad. and it's fucking insane.

the mantra of the gun lobby is that the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. well, this bad guy got stopped, sure. but not before he killed two members of the church. i'm told by gun rights advocates that, in places like texas where citizens can be armed to the teeth and carry concealed weapons, bad guys with guns won't bother trying ti on because they're afraid of armed citizens. heavily armed citizens prevent this kind of thing happening.

except it didn't.

alasdair

 

[SKL]

Again, are you saying that a heavily armed citizenry somehow made this worse? It without a doubt made things better. Still sad. Even the shooter is sad, if our mental health system wasn't shit, this probably wouldn't have happened.

 

[cduggles]

How many people are on the security team? Wouldn’t three or possibly four have worked as well? It’s not a megachurch.
I’m impressed that no one was injured by friendly fire though, I admit.

 

[SKL]

Five IIRC. Maybe six. I think it's possible that everyone who pulled a gun was meant to do exactly that. And they all had an LE background I believe. But it's also possible at least one or two of them were random every day carriers. As far as friendly fire goes, many CCW holders train more than most cops. And those who were on the team probably had specific training in active shooter-amist-civilians situations.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

 

[TheLoveBandit]

I suppose this ought to go here as nobody has mentioned a peaceful gun rally occurring in Virginia recently. Certainly not much note in left leaning MSM, but I'm disappointed nobody on here knew or acknowledged the occurrence.

A few headlines for those interested in reading:

NPR - Richmond Gun Rally: Thousands Of Gun Owners Converge On Virginia Capitol On MLK Day

An estimated 22,000 people attended the demonstration, according to the Virginia Joint Information Center, which says roughly 6,000 people were on Capitol Square and 16,000 were outside the gated barricades.

Police made only one arrest at the rally — a woman was arrested on a "felony count of wearing a mask in public," according to the state information center. An officer arrested 21-year-old Mikaela E. Beschler after twice warning her not to wear a bandanna covering her face.

CNN - Virginia gun-rights rally concludes peacefully despite earlier fears of extremist violence

The crowd, however, was peaceful, with no immediate reports of violence. One person was arrested with one felony count of wearing a mask in public. A 21-year-old woman was arrested and charged after having been warned two times not to wear a bandana over her face and then arrested when an officer saw her wearing it a third time, police said.

Some streets surrounding the capitol grounds, several of which were closed ahead of the event, were packed with protesters. About 22,000 people attended the rally, according to the Virginia Division of Capitol Police. That includes about 6,000 people in the official rally area and 16,000 outside.

Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam, a Democrat, welcomed the fact that the day passed without serious incident.
"Thousands of people came to Richmond to make their voices heard. Today showed that when people disagree, they can do so peacefully," Northam said in a statement. "The issues before us evoke strong emotions, and progress is often difficult. I will continue to listen to the voices of Virginians, and I will continue to do everything in my power to keep our Commonwealth safe."

 

[TheLoveBandit]

NYT Opinion - The Iconic Man With a Gun Is a White Man

Walking through the crowds, I saw Gadsden flags emblazoned with “Don’t Tread on Me” and “Come and Take It” banners alongside “Blue Lives Matter” patches sewn into vests and T-shirts with oft-used quotations like Thomas Jefferson’s famous claim that “the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”

The rhetoric may have been violent, but the overall event was calm — a “peaceful protest,” Brian Moran, the Virginia secretary of public safety, told The Washington Post. A model of democratic assembly.

But that “peace” can’t be separated from intimidation; progressive groups urged members not to go to the Capitol to avoid violent confrontation with extremists. There were no counterprotests or rival demonstrations. The Second Amendment had effectively limited the First.

As I watched the rally, it was impossible not to think through counterfactuals. What if these were left-wing protesters instead? Twenty-two thousand members of the Democratic Socialists of America, armed and threatening insurrection if the Commonwealth of Virginia didn’t establish a system for single-payer health care. How would the state authorities react? Would they give them a wide berth or would they assume hostile intent?

What if this were 22,000 black nationalists, similarly armed, similarly enraged at the prospect of gun control? Would the police have had the same light touch, watching and listening but allowing events to unfold? Or would they have gone into overdrive with riot gear and armored vehicles, aggressive tactics and a presumption of criminality?

We know the answer. In Virginia and many of the 30 other states that allow open carry, Americans have a right to mass, armed protest. But that right, and the right to bear arms in general, is informed by the settler history of the American nation and structured by hierarchies of race and gender, despite our collective pretense to universalism. Or put another way, every American has a right to gun ownership, but the paradigmatic gun owner is still a white man.

The reasons stretch back to our colonial origins. The drive to expropriate Native Americans’ land — and later, to control a surging population of enslaved Africans — produced requirements for gun ownership enforced by governments in nearly every English colony along the Atlantic Coast. In 1658, the historian Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz notes in “Loaded: A Disarming History of the Second Amendment,” Virginia “ordered every settler home to have a functioning firearm, and later even provided government loans for those who could not afford to buy a weapon. Similarly, New England colonial governments made laws such as the 1632 requirement that each person have a functioning firearm plus two pounds of gunpowder and 10 pounds of bullets.” Colonists formed militias to seize indigenous territory and created patrols to combat resistance from slaves.

It appears for some, EVERYTHING is about racism. It's a shame to live one's life with only one filter by which to view the world.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Though, event was not without possible trouble (quotes from the articles linked earlier) except for the antifa one at the end

The gun rights event, held on a holiday that honors a civil rights leader who himself became a victim of gun violence, had generated anxiety that it could draw white supremacists and violent extremists.

When Northam declared an emergency, he noted the possibility that some attendees might try to use the rally as an excuse to launch "insurrection" and violent attacks. A large counterprotest was called off, with several leaders saying the chance of violence was too high.

The FBI and other law enforcement agencies made high-profile arrests of suspected members of neo-Nazi group The Base in three states last week, including one group that allegedly had built a functioning assault rifle. Law enforcement officials told NPR that some of those members had discussed attending the gun rally in Richmond.

According to Northam, law enforcement had learned of credible threats of violence surrounding Monday's rally, made from mainstream and alternative dark web channels used by violent groups and white nationalists outside of Virginia.
That led the Democratic governor to issue a temporary state of emergency last week through Tuesday, banning open and concealed firearms and other weapons from the state capitol grounds.

When announcing the ban on Wednesday, Northam said he hoped to prevent incidents like the violence that erupted three years ago at the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, which left one counter protester dead and several others injured.

On Thursday, the FBI arrested three alleged members of a white supremacist group, including two men accused of possessing a machine gun, over 1,000 rounds of ammunition and body armor parts.

Sean Restatter, 22, told CNN on the capitol grounds Monday that the protest was intended to be peaceful.
"There might be far-right and far-left groups that might be out here today, but the vast majority of the message is 'guns save lives' and we believe in the 2nd Amendment," he said.

PJMedia - Antifa Infiltrator? Gun Rallygoers Turn on Protester Who Urges Violence

Rallygoers at the Virginia capital pro-Second Amendment Lobby Day have been on high alert for several days leading up to the event and warning one another that infiltrators from Antifa or other anti-gun groups could be in their crowd posing as pro-gun, but stirring up trouble and violence. An incident occurred at the Richmond rally that has some people wondering if they've just discovered one of these opposition plants. The video below shows a thin man wearing army-style clothing and claiming to be a libertarian while encouraging someone who is speaking to "start a revolution right now" and "hop that fence and kill that guy."



The crowd quickly turns on the man making the violent suggestions and starts loudly telling the cameras that "he's stirring stuff up" and "that's not how we are." The event-goers insist that the rally is a peaceful event and that they are law-abiding citizens, which is in opposition to media coverage of the event that has been predicting armed militia action and a repeat of the Charlottesville disaster. "I think what that guy just said was absurd," said another rallygoer in response to the agitator. "We don't believe in going and killing people. This is a peaceful rally."

The agitator denied that he was trying to stir anything up but another protester replied, "We know what you are. You're an infiltrator. Get the **** out."

It looks like this crowd is going to be policing itself very quickly if this video is any indication.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Not all 'militia protesters' are 'white man redneck deplorables'...

 

[TheLoveBandit]

And now, for the memes...

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I honestly don't understand why people are so scared of guns. I've been around them my whole life and I'm one of the only people among my friends that doesn't have any, and my only reason is that I couldn't spare the cash until recently.

My cousin said while cleaning out our g'ma's old garage he found a huge box full of early model Armalites that my grandpa had bought in a 'prepper' state of mind, along with some Playboys from the 70s (so interesting lol) and hundreds of rounds of various ammunition. I guess I inherited a lot of my personality from him. Mom always says I remind her of her father.

 

[JessFR]

How many people are on the security team? Wouldn’t three or possibly four have worked as well? It’s not a megachurch.
I’m impressed that no one was injured by friendly fire though, I admit.

Looks like everyone not in the fight got on the floor, that'd be why there's no friendly fire.

I mean it's still super dangerous, and bullets can still go through walls and hit people behind them, they can hit hard objects and spray small high speed shrapnel in every direction, but that's probably why more people weren't hurt thankfully.

I honestly don't understand why people are so scared of guns. I've been around them my whole life and I'm one of the only people among my friends that doesn't have any, and my only reason is that I couldn't spare the cash until recently.

A lot of people, and most people in most of the developed world, didn't grow up around guns. They only see them in movies. So it's not surprising they're so afraid of them.

I grew up around guns too and I feel no fear of them either. But I totally understand why people who didn't do.

I mean guns absolutely can end your life in an instant. I'm not saying fearing guns themselves is rational. But I think it's understandable.

I'll say this though... I absolutely do fear people who have no experience with guns being around guns. It's amazing just how stupidly people who've never been taught how to safely use guns handle them.

 

[cduggles]

I'm disappointed nobody on here knew or acknowledged the occurrence.

Well I knew about both the arrests and the rally. I think they kind of cancel each other out.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

I don’t own any guns. I’m supposed to inherit a few of my grandfathers guns at some point (nothing significant other than personal family value). I did inherit the ammo early, though (lol). Ended up giving the ammo away because: in my garage (out of reach) if there was ever a fire...plus, by the time mom passes down the guns I’m not sure the ammo would still work (it’s older than me), may as well let someone put the few boxes to use.

along with some Playboys from the 70s (so interesting lol)

Make you a deal on those playboys.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

I absolutely do fear people who have no experience with guns being around guns. It's amazing just how stupidly people who've never been taught how to safely use guns handle them.

When/if I have guns in my house, EVERYONE will take basic guns safety courses. I’ve shot less than a dozen rounds in my life, just plinking cans in the woods with my uncles as a teen, so I’m down for the course as well.

With kids, I may have them take the course even if we don’t get guns in the house. I live in PA which is a hunting state (businesses shutdown due to employees calling out ‘sick’) when hunting season arrives. As such my kids will invariably end up in homes with guns.

I’d prefer my family has a healthy respect for guns than a ignorant fear.