• Current Events & Politics
    Welcome Guest
    Please read before posting:
    Forum Guidelines Bluelight Rules
  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2019ish

Status
Not open for further replies.
100% I would. I run toward danger. I trained for 4 years with former Special Operations guys (mainly SEALs and SWCC) before joining the Navy with a SEAL contract. In the 4 years, we did physical training, CQB tactics, hand to hand combat, etc. etc. It was like I already completed SEAL training in that amount of time I trained with them. Wanted to be a SEAL since I was 8 (started having seizures and got discharged). That's the type of stuff I wanted to do. I still wanna be in Special Operations, but the military wont accept me, even though my seizures are 100% controlled.

As for "some hero stepping in with his concealed weapon to stop an atrocity", ive personally never had the oppertunity. Cant talk for anyone else though.


Well that's a bit different mate. You're a highly trained professional, not just some random dude with a gun fetish.

The only 'hero' story I can think of is this one:


4 terrorists attacked a hotel in Kenya, killing 21 people and took hostages. Unluckily for them, there just happened to be an off duty member of the SAS nearby. He quickly took control of the situation, single handedly took out all 4 terrorists and led the hostages to safety.
 
Well that's a bit different mate. You're a highly trained professional, not just some random dude with a gun fetish.

The only 'hero' story I can think of is this one:


4 terrorists attacked a hotel in Kenya, killing 21 people and took hostages. Unluckily for them, there just happened to be an off duty member of the SAS nearby. He quickly took control of the situation, single handedly took out all 4 terrorists and led the hostages to safety.
Thats pretty bad ass! I hope I never have to do that one day, but im definitely always ready if I have to. There are too many crazy people nowadays. Especially here in the US. Im not sure whats going on... We treat mental health here like its a joke. Something needs to change.
 
When the constitution was written, one could fire a musket maybe 3 times per minute. To say that the historiography of this mess applies to automatic weapons and assault rifles. It's just not possible to say that the "Founding Fathers" would have had any idea of how things would turn out, which in my opinion makes the constitution invalid. I believe the constitution to be completely invalid anyway.

Our "Founding Fathers" had no problem proclaiming that all men are created equal in the eyes of God, yet, it is still okay for us to own human beings. The constitution was an absolute farce from the moment it was written as those who wrote it clearly either had no integrity whatsoever or are simply two-faced. I find it hilarious... HILARIOUS that Americans continue to discuss this document as if it is relevant in any way whatsoever.

Learning History sucks. You inevitably get to a point where you realize all men are dishonest, liars, violent to the death and disregarding of the wants, needs and desires of others.

I think you're conflating the declaration of independence with the constitution. I'd also like to remind you that in the historical context of the US constitution, it was only intended to constrain the federal government. Even the bill of rights didn't apply to state power. That came later on.

As for the "they only had muskets back then" argument. I don't think it works. Soon as you say that, you say the first amendment doesn't cover the internet, for exactly the same reason.

You can't get around it. The law is the law. Now, I actually agree with you that we can't reasonably expect to know how the founders might have made the 2nd amendment different had they known what the consequences would be. But it's not an excuse to just ignore laws you don't like arbitrarally.

The constitution and the founders provided a method to modify the constitution. Through an amendment. That's the lawful way to change the 2nd amendment. Creative reinterpretation of it is illegitimate and undermines all legal protections that exist.

I tend to think the 2nd amendment could stand to be changed too, I don't know that I really believe in an absolute right to own a gun for everybody. But I for one will never support illegally ignoring the law and just having the government do whatever it wants. Even if the reason is altruistic.

The reason we can't change it legally is because a lot of people don't agree. And regardless of if they're right or wrong not to agree, they have a say too in a democracy.

And I'd rather live in an imperfect democratic country with rights that aren't so easily thrown out or reinterpreted as you would seem to prefer.

Doing the right thing doesn't justify doing it the wrong way.
 
If the US actually elected a president who had the balls to stand up to the gun lobby and wasn't reliant upon their funding, then the second amendment could easily be amended (though they'd probably end up getting shot in the head for their efforts). But as you say, that will never happen until there is a fundamental change in the 'guns are great' mentality which appears to be ingrained in your DNA.
 
Last edited:
If the US actually elected a president who had the balls to stand up to the gun lobby and wasn't reliant upon their funding, then the second amendment could easily be amended (though they'd probably end up getting shot in the head for their efforts). But as you say, that will never happen until there is a fundamental change in the 'guns are great' mentality which appears to be ingrained in your DNA.

Not a chance. And it has little to do with the gun lobby.

It's easier to blame lobbyists because, well, just about everyone hates lobbyists. It's harder to hate ordinary people who just disagree with you, but they make up the bulk of the problem here.

It doesn't matter who's president, you'll never get an amendment changing the 2nd passed in America today.

The NRA isn't funded by magic. A LOT of its money (the majority of it in fact) comes form ordinary Americans. There are a LOT of people, especially in the southern states, who don't want the 2nd amendment changed.

Changing the second amendment would require a level of support that simply doesn't exist in America today. It's not happening. That's exactly why people try to cheat and evade amending the constitution. Because they know trying to do it the legitimate way is a losing proposition.

I think the 2nd amendment could be changed one day as part of a wider cultural change. But something that sure doesn't help is trying to pretend that the people who don't agree simply don't exist by imagining them as faceless lobbyists.

The president doesn't even have any legal role in the amendment process. And you will NEVER get a supermajority of both houses of congress and 38 of the state legislatures to pass a change to the 2nd amendment in foreseeable future.

Not, gonna, happen.
 
Last edited:
There are deep-seated reasons for Americans' gun fetish. It stems from first exploring a brand new, wild, untamed land and having to survive, then from fighting a war for independence against the British army with militias, then the westward expansion in the 1800s (the wild west, where it was basically lawless and you had to have a gun). It's deeply ingrained as a symbol of protection and freedom. It's different in Europe where the land has been "civilized" for a very long time, certainly the whole time guns have existed. So although the gun fetish is unfortunate, it's also understandable. Even though the reasons for it really bear little relevance to the world we live in today.
 
Not a chance. And it has little to do with the gun lobby.

It's easier to blame lobbyists because, well, just about everyone hates lobbyists. It's harder to hate ordinary people who just disagree with you, but they make up the bulk of the problem here.

It doesn't matter who's president, you'll never get an amendment changing the 2nd passed in America today.

The NRA isn't funded by magic. A LOT of its money comes form ordinary Americans. There are a LOT of people, especially in the southern states, who don't want the 2nd amendment changed.

Changing the second amendment would require a level of support that simply doesn't exist in America today. It's not happening. That's exactly why people try to cheat and evade amending the constitution. Because they know trying to do it the legitimate way is a losing proposition.

I think the 2nd amendment could be changed one day as part of a wider cultural change. But something that sure doesn't help is trying to pretend that the people who don't agree simply don't exist by imagining them as faceless lobbyists.


I think you've just agreed with me there, in a roundabout way :)

The mentality of the American people has to change fundamentally and stop supporting groups like the NRA. I truly believe it will eventually happen, but probably not in my lifetime. As an outsider, I get the impression that the tide of public opinion is slowly changing. But how many more of your children have to die at the hands of undiagnosed psychopaths who can walk into any gun store and buy a ridiculous weapon of mass destruction before you come to your senses?
 
I think you've just agreed with me there, in a roundabout way :)

The mentality of the American people has to change fundamentally and stop supporting groups like the NRA. I truly believe it will eventually happen, but probably not in my lifetime. As an outsider, I get the impression that the tide of public opinion is slowly changing. But how many more of your children have to die at the hands of undiagnosed psychopaths who can walk into any gun store and buy a ridiculous weapon of mass destruction before you come to your senses?

I don't think the tide is changing at all. In fact if it is indeed changing, I suspect it's probably in favor of the pro gun side.

Back in the 80s and 90s, concealed carry of weapons was quite strictly controlled. The assault weapon ban was passed. But between then and now it has become far FAR easier to get a permit in most of the country. DC v Heller affirmed the individualist interpretation of the 2nd amendment. The federal assault weapons ban expired and hasn't come back.

And NRA funding from membership and donations has significantly increased.

So no, I don't see the tide turning against gun owners at all.

I don't think any real progress will happen until people stop fostering further division and begin trying to understand each other.

Change requires agreement. And there won't be agreement so long as most people on each side of the political divide dehumanize each other and turn each other into strawmen.
 
Last edited:
Really? I thought there was much more of a voice for gun control now due to the prevalence of mass shootings. The fact that NRA funding has increased significantly in spite of these atrocities speaks volumes about the mentality of Americans I'm afraid. I don't mean to sound insulting, but its a mentality that the majority of the rest of the developed world will never understand.
 
Here's one problem. Every single time there's a mass shooting, or people talking on TV about gun control, the pro gun types start buying more guns, and giving more money to the NRA to prevent new laws being passed.

They're not stupid, they know that every mass shooting empowers antigun advocates and they know to strengthen their position with it.

With every mass shooting, the sales of the types of guns used, as well as guns in general, dramatically increase just in case someone tries to ban them.

Even if they do manage to pass an assault weapon ban again, constitutional issues aside, they will never be able to include confiscation as part of it. That might work in other countries, but it'll never survive opposition in America.

So even if such a law were to pass, there would be enough such weapons in the market grandfathered in from before the ban to keep availability high for the next century.

One of many reasons why assault weapon bans are stupid. Their intended effectiveness is highly questionable, and the pursuit of them is only strengthening the pro gun side for no actual benefit.

Any anti gun voices you hear, with demonstrations or whatever, I think is very much just a media distortion. By which I mean it's making it look like there's more momentum behind change than there really is.

I do think you're right about this though, the rest of the world doesn't get it. And they're never gonna. I haven't met many people who aren't Americans who I thought really understood the situation. It's not like it was in Australia or other countries where gun control was introduced in one memorable event. Guns have a place in American culture that is seemingly unique to anywhere else.
 
Last edited:
Change requires agreement. And there won't be agreement so long as most people on each side of the political divide dehumanize each other and turn each other into strawmen.
This sounds nice but...

the rest of the world doesn't get it. And they're never gonna. I haven't met many people who aren't Americans who I thought really understood the situation.
you say this in your very next reply.
 
Yeh, the worst event of this type in UK history was the Dunblane massacre in 1996 where some nutter armed with an assortment of handguns shot dead 16 children and a teacher:



Public ownership of handguns was effectively banned overnight, and all owners had to hand in their weapons to the police. It's never happened again. The very idea that the answer to this type of problem is more guns is fuckin insane...
 
Yeh, the worst event of this type in UK history was the Dunblane massacre in 1996 where some nutter armed with an assortment of handguns shot dead 16 children and a teacher:



Public ownership of handguns was effectively banned overnight, and all owners had to hand in their weapons to the police. It's never happened again. The very idea that the answer to this type of problem is more guns is fuckin insane...

Well I agree that the "more guns/more armed people would solve these mass shootings" argument that some people come out with are laughably absurd. And don't even get me started on the insanity of arming teachers.

I'm not gonna argue gun control policies specifically in depth (as in beyond general agreement where I do agree) right now cause, frankly, I've gone into it at length before several times and I just don't feel like it at the moment.

So instead I'm just discussing the surrounding situation and politics. And on that note. The way the UK, Australia, or more recently new Zealand have responded is simply not gonna work in the US. The cultural and legal situation isn't comperable. If it were we wouldn't be having this conversation. The US would have simply done as much of the rest of the world has after columbine.

This sounds nice but...


you say this in your very next reply.

Yeah I'm not seeing your point here. Nothing I said was dehumanizing. And I'd hardly call it strawmaning people to say that my experience is that I haven't met many people who weren't Americans (or have lived in America a long time) who really understood the political and cultural situation.

I wouldn't even call what I said a negative remark, let alone strawmaning or dehumanizing. Saying people don't get it doesn't mean they're not allowed to have opinions. Just that their opinions are likely to be formed form a very incomplete picture.

But hey, you're welcome to your opinion, but no, having reviewed it I still stand by what I said completely.
 
Last edited:
This is how I see it... If someone wants to commit an atrocity like what just happened in Virginia Beach the person wanting to do so will buy a gun whether its legal or not. They're not going to care if they have to buy it illegally. Most (but not all) gun murders are committed with a gun that was illegally purchased. Chicago, IL is a perfect example. They have some of the strictest gun laws in the United States, but they have some of the highest gun crime/murders here in the US (the guns were purchased illegally). It simply doesn't work. Gun Laws are no different than Drug Laws. If someone wants to buy it (whether its legal or not) they will be able to buy it. As long as there is a "demand" for it... Someone will be selling it. Doesnt matter if they have to buy it illegally or not.

This is just my opinion/view.
 
Last edited:
Yeah I'm not seeing your point here.
My point is that you don't want change and are actively promoting stagnancy. You are also being blinded by your own nationalism.

Gun Laws are no different than Drug Laws.
I totally agree. And more so, there are some fucking fantastic drug laws in some states where you can legally buy REGULATED marijuana. It's a fantastic idea!!!
 
My point is that you don't want change and are actively promoting stagnancy. You are also being blinded by your own nationalism.

Could you please explain to me how you got that from what I said?

Cause I'm still at a loss for how saying that I've met very few non Americans who really understand this aspect of American politics, that just about everyone seems to agree is unusual by international standards, justifies any of what you've suggested.
 
Problem: Shootings
Solution: Firearms

Doesn't matter how that mindset is explained to me, it never makes sense.

It's like trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline.
 
This is how I see it... If someone wants to commit an atrocity like what just happened in Washington D.C the person wanting to do so will buy a gun whether its legal or not. They're not going to care if they have to buy it illegally. Most (but not all) gun murders are committed with a gun that was illegally purchased. Chicago, IL is a perfect example. They have some of the strictest gun laws in the United States, but they have some of the highest gun crime/murders here in the US (the guns were purchased illegally). It simply doesn't work. Gun Laws are no different than Drug Laws. If someone wants to buy it (whether its legal or not) they will be able to buy it. As long as there is a "demand" for it... Someone will be selling it. Doesnt matter if they have to buy it illegally or not.

This is just my opinion/view.

Of course guns will always be available to criminals - we also have a rising problem with gun crime in the UK. But it stands to reason that if guns are freely available to all, then more criminals will have access to them. Also, I believe that the majority of gun deaths in the USA are suicides, not homicides - It's all too easy to pull that trigger in a moment of weakness.

And as for "gun laws are no different than drug laws", I think you'd be hard pressed to cause much damage bursting into a school armed with a spiff... ;)
Problem: Shootings
Solution: Firearms

Doesn't matter how that mindset is explained to me, it never makes sense.

It's like trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline.


Yup. Terrorist attacks? Suicide vests for everyone...
 
Back in the 80s and 90s, concealed carry of weapons was quite strictly controlled. The assault weapon ban was passed. But between then and now it has become far FAR easier to get a permit in most of the country. DC v Heller affirmed the individualist interpretation of the 2nd amendment. The federal assault weapons ban expired and hasn't come back.

Interestingly, after the 90s is when mass shootings started happening with increasing frequency and deadliness. I mean, given there are more guns than humans in America right now, it's true that anyone who wants them bad enough and is able to network with illegal gun distributors can get them. But surely you must admit that military-style large capacity, rapid-firing guns are able to cause far more damage much more quickly than a guy with a handgun. Someone shooting a semi-auto quipped with a bump stock installed into a crowd indiscriminately can take out dozens of people before anyone has the chance to even realize what's happening. The same is simply not true of a handgun. Yeah, someone can still commit a mass shooting but it's not on the same level, and much easier to stop, and much less likely to cause more than a few casualties. And let's face it, kids shooting up their school probably aren't buying their semi-auto rifles from gangs or organized crime rings, at least not most of the time. They're probably raiding their parents' legally obtained gun, or perhaps they're 18 and just go to a gun show and utilize the obscenely bizarre loophole where you can just buy those things with no questions asked. I do not believe the government should confiscate everyone's guns, not at all. Our culture doesn't allow for that and as others have said, there are so many guns already that the criminals would have free reign. Plus there are fully legitimate reasons to own guns, and I'm not into the idea of a police state either. But I think it's stupid to allow people to buy military-style weapons. Is the deer gonna shoot back? No one needs to own those. I understand finding it fun to shoot them, so I'd be cool with licensed gun ranges owning them and you can go and shoot those ones (of course the argument "this should be legal because it's fun for me" is pretty asanine too).

The fact that gun control is loosening since school and other mass shootings started happening is fucking weird and creepy and makes me wonder what's going on. The fact that the NRA was pushing for arming teachers as a solution is creepy and fucked up and clearly an attempt to sell more guns. The fact that politicians receive a report card style letter grade from the NRA - which dictates how much bribery money they get from them - oh sorry, campaign finance or whatever you want to call it to make it sound okay - and is based on how much they vote in the NRA's interests, is extremely corrupt and fucked up to the point that it's almost beyond my belief that it's totally known about and accepted. You have to ask yourself what's going on here. More guns are not the answer to this problem. Sensible gun control policies coupled with a real soul-searching investigation into our mental health system are the answers. By sensible I mean background checks, waiting period, and close the god damn gun show loophole already, and make it very difficult indeed to obtain military-style semi-automatics. Right now it's absurdly easy to get those. 18/19 year old disturbed kids shouldn't be able to look up the nearest gun show and pick those up whenever they want to. That's insanity.
 
It seems like we're having a huge mental health crisis here in the United States (and quite possibly around the world) and nobody is worried about it. People arent getting the help they need and this (shootings) could be a result of it. I dont know if they're putting something in the water (im being serious) or what... but its only gotten worse and worse over the years. I remember the 90s when I was growing up things like this just didnt happen (except for Columbine in 1999). I fear its only going to get worse. I remember when someone had a problem with their boss they'd simply tell them to "fuck off" or call them a bad name and then just quit. Instead of shooting up the work place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top