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Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread

No mate, you're not. Secretly we're just fuckin jealous of you. The majority of US states have legalised cannabis for medical and/or recreational purposes now. Do you realise how far behind you we are in this respect? Who would have thought it from the country responsible for the worldwide 'war on drugs'? I realise that on a federal level it's still illegal, but the fact that so many of your states are sticking their fingers up at central government is a breath of fresh air! We couldn't imagine anything like that here as we're such a small country and all ruled by the same rod of iron.
Ehhhh, yes and no. 31 states have legalized medical marijuana but only 9 states have legalized it recreationally. The only positive thing I can say about Florida (it is legal for medical uses here) is that if you're caught with only a small amount for your own use in most major cities, it is a civil fine now and not a criminal charge. I'm also waiting for Jefferson Beauregard Sessions to bring down "the rod of iron" nationally. Until I lived in Alabama, I did not know it was possible for me to hate one single politician so much.
 
Jesus Christ! Jefferson Beauregard Sessions?? With a name like that he's bound to be in the pocket of the NRA. (That was my weak attempt at staying on topic - but I'd bet money on it being true...)


Edit: I've just googled the fucker - what a classic example of an all American middle class white boy. Exemplary career, including the military. Bound to be a fuckin nonce... ;)
 
@JessFR: damn, long time no hear. qft jess.

Yeah I've been avoiding this thread cause, well, it tends to frustrate me that it seems like these debates go on one giant loop. Where 50 pages in it'll actually still be the same arguments being made as page 1. Having gone in one big circle. Which, well, I guess it isn't any more pointless than any other online debate. But in these kinds of debates it gets very hard to not notice.

Which isn't a judgement on anyone who decides to participate, but generally I'll make my arguments until I feel like I'm repeating myself, then leave. And I think I made most of my arguments much earlier in this thread.

But hey, I still check in from time to time.

The other thing is, it's kinda depressing. Even if the debate here is just academic and none of us can actually put our beliefs into practice, the fact that we can't come to some mutual consensus and that we just go around and around in itself is in itself a small scale version of the depressing realities of gun control politics in America. Which is that we sit at a stalemate between two sides that refuse to budge, unable to do anything while others suffer.
 
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That is so fucked up. So if some cunt calls you a 'cunt' in Florida, you are quite within your rights to shoot the cunt because you are standing your ground? This is why I have no desire to visit that godforsaken hell hole called America. You're all fucked up and deserve what you fuckin get. Cunts...

Florida gets a bad rap but most people there are sane and just trying to get through their day to day lives. The cities can be rough but that's true of everywhere else I've gone. You'd be surprised how rural some parts of that state still are. I don't presume to tell them how to Govern themselves either. I think this situation was awful and the entire argument that started it was retarded but I still think the Stand your Ground law is a good one. Before they had it there were several cases of justified shootings that ended up with an innocent person that was just defending their home going to prison for murder. The law doesn't excuse being an asshole with a gun it just ensures that an innocent person isn't forced to automatically defend themselves in court. The state has to actually build a case against them.

I was down there for Zimmerman and most of the locals I worked with thought he was an asshole and Travon was too. They wanted it resolved quickly because they didn't want all the attention they were getting. Not saying I agree with the ruling but it's amazing how the locals treated that compared to everyone outside of the state. Some people were taking sides down there but most people just didn't want to talk about it and would change the subject if it was brought up. Didn't matter what color they were. There was so much violence going on in the city that it was seen as another day in the Murder Capital of the USA (it was before Chicago took the lead spot).

The state I live in now is similar. You have no duty to retreat if you're attacked in your car or at your residence. Unfortunately, there are awful people in the world that like to creep into your home at 3am and do you harm. I wouldn't shoot anyone over a parking dispute but I'd have no issue shooting someone that was being violent in my yard in the dead of night. Just in the last few years I've had three different couples knocking on my Grandmother's door in the early morning with intentions of doing her harm. Thankfully all three of those couples were eventually caught but not before several people were beaten in their own houses. They prey on the old folks because they know most of them can't defend themselves. Scared my Grandmother enough that she requested I teach her how to use a revolver. The only reason she sleeps well now is because I defend the house at night.

Until we get teleportation devices and instant response times from the police I don't see things changing. Also, I've noticed that people's opinions on this subject change really fast after they've been attacked by someone like this. I know I personally never saw the need in having a CCL until I almost got car jacked and I didn't keep guns loaded in the house until I was held at gunpoint and robbed in my own home. I don't want to stress the self defense aspect too much though. I hope I'll never need them for that. I mainly own guns because they're fun and it's the most effective way to take care of pests around the farm. I also enjoy hunting deer and hogs and just building them. It's an expensive hobby too. Ammo is fucking expensive and even feeding the AR-15 can hit my pocket if I don't watch it when I'm out target shooting.

If they came around tomorrow telling me to turn them in because the laws changed I'd hand over that one pistol they know about and not say anything about the other 10 or 15 I have laying around. Most people are going to do this too. That's why I don't think gun control works. No sane person would willingly hand his gun over when the criminals don't have registered guns and don't follow the laws anyway.
 
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MIAMI After a Florida sheriff decided not to arrest a white man who the authorities say killed an unarmed black man in a confrontation over a handicapped parking spot, outrage came from expected places: the victim's family, civil rights organizations and Democratic politicians eager to repeal Florida's controversial self-defense law, known as Stand Your Ground. But what was far more unusual was the perceived criticism from the powerful state lobbyist for the National Rifle Association, as well as Republican legislators who helped write the law. They disputed the sheriff's interpretation and implied that perhaps the gunman should have been arrested. Faced with increasing questions about his actions, Sheriff Bob Gualtieri of Pinellas County addressed his critics on Tuesday in a lengthy news conference, defending his decision not to arrest Michael Drejka in the shooting of Markeis McGlockton. "I didn't get it wrong," the sheriff said. His decision to let Mr. Drejka go free has reopened the debate in Florida over Stand Your Ground, a 2005 law that first rose to national attention after the 2012 fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old African-American teenager whose killer the police initially declined to arrest, citing the law.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/31/us/stand-your-ground-law-nra.html

 
Youd have to begin the fight for your freedom to start with for that to matter. ;)

Fucking EU, WHY can't I turn off the warning on my phone that the volume "could" damage my hearing EVERY TIME I wanna set the volume above 60%. The EU, that's why. They're a bunch of safety obsessed nazis.

It's SO fucking annoying, especially when there is ALSO a warning that the camera light might cause "low temperature burns" and the screen brightness "eyestrain" that ALSO warn you EVERY time you use them.

That's enough to make me wanna raise a gun to get the freedom to opt out of this safety obsessed "adults need babying" insanity.

I know this might seem a little off topic and half joking, and it is, but I'm also a bit serious here. I've repeatedly gotten the impression, living in Australia and what I've seen from Europe, that much as the people who live there think they're free, they honestly don't realize just how much they've sacrificed in the name of safety.
 
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maybe they realize it perfectly well and they're just fine with it...

'freedom' is a hard thing to measure because, obviously, it depends greatly on how you choose to measure it. but people try to measure it objectively and, while many americans consider the u.s. the land of the free and a world leader when it comes to freedom, it's not quite that simple: Freedom in the World 2018

Democratic norms erode within the United States

The past year brought further, faster erosion of America’s own democratic standards than at any other time in memory, damaging its international credibility as a champion of good governance and human rights.

The United States has experienced a series of setbacks in the conduct of elections and criminal justice over the past decade—under leadership from both major political parties—but in 2017 its core institutions were attacked by an administration that rejects established norms of ethical conduct across many fields of activity. President Trump himself has mingled the concerns of his business empire with his role as president, appointed family members to his senior staff, filled other high positions with lobbyists and representatives of special interests, and refused to abide by disclosure and transparency practices observed by his predecessors.

FitW9_820px_United_States_Trajectory-cropped.png


The president has also lambasted and threatened the media—including sharp jabs at individual journalists—for challenging his routinely false statements, spoken disdainfully of judges who blocked his decisions, and attacked the professional staff of law enforcement and intelligence agencies. He signals contempt for Muslims and Latin American immigrants and singles out some African Americans for vitriolic criticism. He pardoned a sheriff convicted of ignoring federal court orders to halt racially discriminatory policies and issued an executive order restricting travel to the United States from a group of Muslim-majority countries after making a campaign promise to ban all foreign Muslims from the United States. And at a time when millions around the world have been forced to flee war, terrorism, and ethnic cleansing, President Trump moved to implement major reductions in the number of legal immigrants and refugees that the United States would accept.

The president’s behavior stems in part from a frustration with the country’s democratic checks and balances, including the independent courts, a coequal legislative branch, the free press, and an active civil society. These institutions remained fairly resilient in 2017, but the administration’s statements and actions could ultimately leave them weakened, with serious consequences for the health of U.S. democracy and America’s role in the world.

i know a lot of vocal participants on this site seems to measure the extent of their own freedom by a single metric: their right to own a gun.

i'm nor sure how you begin to measure the more qualitative aspects of freedom in a day to day sense but i've lived in the u.s. and the u.k. and i can't say that i felt any less free living in the u.k. it's my impression that many of our australian participants feel the same way - just as free...

alasdair
 
Jess, perhaps safety IS a form of freedom.

Yeah no. Sorry but they're my ears, my eyes, my skin, and MY PHONE THAT I PAID FOR. And if I wanna NOT be nagged by the EU babysitter every fkin day that should be up to me.

I wouldn't even care if they just warned me once, then let me agree that I understand that turning the volume up till my ears bleed might not be great for them, and then I never had to see it again. But to mandate that I be warned again every 20 hours in case I forgot? Fuck that shit.

And this is hardly an isolated incident. Just one that's often on my mind for obvious reasons. But this shit has been taken so far in so many ways.

If that's freedom, where can I sign up to be free from this freedom? I don't want to live like that. I don't wanna live in a world full of busy bodies playing helicopter parent from hell. Sure, sometimes some freedoms should be sacrificed for safety, but a lot of people who've somehow found themselves in power just do not comprehend at all where the line is.
 
MIAMI After a Florida sheriff decided not to arrest a white man who the authorities say killed an unarmed black man in a confrontation over a handicapped parking spot, outrage came from expected places: the victim's family, civil rights organizations and Democratic politicians eager to repeal Florida's controversial self-defense law, known as Stand Your Ground. But what was far more unusual was the perceived criticism from the powerful state lobbyist for the National Rifle Association, as well as Republican legislators who helped write the law. They disputed the sheriff's interpretation and implied that perhaps the gunman should have been arrested. Faced with increasing questions about his actions, Sheriff Bob Gualtieri of Pinellas County addressed his critics on Tuesday in a lengthy news conference, defending his decision not to arrest Michael Drejka in the shooting of Markeis McGlockton. "I didn't get it wrong," the sheriff said. His decision to let Mr. Drejka go free has reopened the debate in Florida over Stand Your Ground, a 2005 law that first rose to national attention after the 2012 fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old African-American teenager whose killer the police initially declined to arrest, citing the law.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/31/us/stand-your-ground-law-nra.html


The Pinellas County District Attorney charged this POS with manslaughter today. He might have gotten second degree murder had the other guy not shoved him to the ground.

Prosecutors charged Michael Drejka, the man accused of killing Markeis McGlockton in a shooting that has reignited a debate over Florida’s stand your ground law, with manslaughter Monday. According to the Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office, Drejka was taken into custody Monday morning. He was being booked about 12:20 p.m. into the Pinellas County Jail, where he will be held in lieu of $100,000 bail.

"It’s about time," said McGlockton’s father, Michael McGlockton, adding that he was ecstatic. "This is exactly what I wanted. This is exactly what me and my family wanted was to get this guy behind bars." Pinellas-Pasco State Attorney Bernie McCabe said Monday that his office "reviewed everything, and we filed the charge we think we can prove." "I’m comfortable that we moved expeditiously to review the case," he said.

Drejka, who turned 48 since the shooting, had avoided arrest since he shot 28-year-old McGlockton on July 19 because of the controversial self-defense law that eliminated one’s duty to retreat before resorting to force.
Pinellas Sheriff Bob Gualtieri announced July 20 that his agency was precluded from arresting Drejka because evidence showed it was "within the bookends of stand your ground and within the bookends of force being justified," which provides immunity from arrest, the sheriff said. He forwarded the case Aug. 1 to the Pinellas-Pasco State Attorney’s Office to make a final charging determination.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/publi...n-Clearwater-stand-your-ground-case_170853729

 
Prosecutors charged Michael Drejka, the man accused of killing Markeis McGlockton in a shooting that has reignited a debate over Florida?s stand your ground law, with manslaughter Monday

I may be completely wrong about this, but my understanding of past SYG cases is that it offers immunity from prosecution.

Which to be fair to the Sheriff, puts the cops in a tricky situation--technically they can't investigate if they can't bring charges. Or rather, why have your department spend the overtime money to check out the shooter's story, when it won't go anywhere?

That's the insanity of it, to me, and a great example of how pro-gun mentalities have distorted laws in the US. I can shoot a guy dead for giving me the stink-eye (in FL and several other states) and as long as I say I was scared, the cops don't even need to talk to witnesses. Sure they can, they can even try to press charges, but the judge will throw it out because, hey, the law says the shooter is immune from prosecution.

Any legal eagles or even legal lesser-bird-types, legal sparrows, maybe, I'd love to hear the technicalities.
 
It seems crazy that there isn't a burden of proof on the shooters. Does it not need to be demonstrated that it was reasonable for the shooter to be in fear for their life?
 
It seems crazy that there isn't a burden of proof on the shooters. Does it not need to be demonstrated that it was reasonable for the shooter to be in fear for their life?

Innocent until proven guilty. If you shoot someone, you have a right to be assumed innocent, that's how the legal system works. The prosecutors need to prove that you broke the law.

Say someone attacks me, and I defend myself and in the course of doing so, they die. Why should I have to prove I'm not guilty of murder? That's a presumption of guilt.

And I know what someone's gonna say, "well what about the person you shot, where's their presumption of innocence". But that's the thing, the system didn't execute them, I killed them in self defense. And failing to prove I am guilty of murder is not a statement of their guilt. They haven't been legally found guilty either.

That's the way the system SHOULD work. Nobody should be assumed to be guilty.

And frankly, I've seen so much utter bullshit and political distortions around this subject, that I don't believe anyone when they say that a self defense shooting is murder. Cause everyone said that about George Zimmerman. But despite looking into it over and over again, every time I have found that it is abundantly clear that he was justified to shoot. But, the public see Zimmerman as white, and Martin as black. Zimmerman is automatically assumed guilty because of all the other probably unjustified shooting of blacks by cops. The fact that Zimmerman wasn't a cop is apparently not considered at all.

Then you have the fact that people play armchair expert and assume they have any idea what a real life self defense situation is like, and believe that a violent altercation works according to movie and TV physics. Where a nobody ever dies from being punched in the head, even though it happens in real life all the time.

With Zimmerman, it was so cut and dry. Martin has injuries to his hands, Zimmerman had injuries to his face. Zimmerman had wet grass on his back, indicating he had been punched to the ground. If Martin had gained control of Zimmerman gun, he might have killed him. Zimmerman life was in real danger even if there'd been no gun at all.

But to the public, this is all ignored. To them, a kid can't punch an adult to death. Zimmerman is expected to psychicly know that he will survive with no lasting injuries. He's determined to be guilty because he was carrying a gun at all. Even though he'd broken no law. He's guilty because he didn't run away, even though it's also clear he was attempting to leave up until he was attacked after being asked to do so by the 911 operator. And even though after being attacked, the evidence suggests he would have been unable to run at that point.

Fact is, people see the scenario the way they want it to be. A cut and dry case of racism and the murder of an innocent misguided teenager. But that's BULLSHIT.

Then you have the fact that the media edited the 911 calls to make it sound like Zimmerman disobeyed the 911 dispatcher, which he didn't. And isn't illegal and doesn't make him at fault even if he had. They also photos hopped the pictures to make Martin look blacker and Zimmerman whiter. The media tries to distort this shit, and because the public wanna see it that way anyway, they don't question it.

But it's bullshit. That we're even talking about stand your ground laws is probably bullshit. Because those laws only apply when you actually have the ability to retreat. In the Zimmerman case, it's clear he didn't. He'd likely not have been prosecuted and found guilty anywhere, stand your ground state or not. It's just another distortion. And personally I'm fed up of being lied too and manipulated by the media and the ignorant public.

I believe people have a right to defend themselves, and it's clear to me that most people who argue against this sort of thing are totally ignorant of the law, of the realities of self defense in the real world, of the legal philosophies that I believe entirely justify a lot of these circumstances.

I absolutely agree that a lot of black kids have been wrongfully killed in examples of police brutality. But I am also convinced that the public and the media try and distort EVERY situation that remotely resembles it into this narrative, and innocent people are vilified for it. And that's wrong. It's a witch hunt.

And speaking of this presumption of guilt, I once argued with a bunch of people who claimed the justice system had been corrupt when it sentenced a transgender woman to jail for defending herself. It was my position that it was clear that the justice system had followed the law, but that the law itself was what was wrong.

But they couldn't accept that position, and you know why? Because the reason she was found guilty was because she had the ability to run away, but in a split second moment of fight or flight, this untrained individual decided to fight. Stand your ground laws exist to protect people like her. They are a legal statement that ordinary individuals can't be expected to know when to run, when they can run and are legally expected to, or when to fight. But in the state in which this happened, there were no stand your ground laws, so she was correctly albeit unjustly found guilty for fighting when she could have run, resulting in a death.

But the people I was arguing couldn't accept that. They were politically left wing. They want to defend this woman, and in my opinion are right to do so. But they absolutely can't accept that she was found guilty because there's no stand your ground law. So they lie to themselves and imagine corruption where none existed.

It's total bullshit.
 
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