cnn did report on it. google search for "nxivm site:cnn.com" returns 24 results.
alasdair
Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread
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alasdair
cduggles
Bluelight Crew
JessFR, I don't mind complicated issues, but your point is well-taken.
Mental health issues are also obviously a factor. However, we have a government currently arguing whether young people should even have to buy catastrophic coverage, so the luxury of mental health care is not going to be accessible to everyone.
I don't think the impact of school shootings is captured solely by looking at total of students killed. There are a couple of things that are of concern. Obviously, the damage done to people who survive mass shootings is tremendous. The students and their families/loved ones are affected in a direct manner.
Also, mass school shootings shouldn't be normalized. Kids being killed, witnessing killings, and hiding from killers is not okay. It's not acceptable. Because of the media coverage, it's also creating an imprint on the national psyche. It's bigger than just an "insignificant" number of people because it's changed from the fascination with and sympathy for victims of the Columbine High School shooting to criticizing survivors of the Parkland shooting for speaking out. That's a huge cultural shift.
Maybe if there are enough corporate workplace shootings like at YouTube HQ, then gun regulation will be more urgent?
I love shooting and I don't want to have my gun ownership reviewed, but I have changed my mind about gun regulation after the Aurora shooting and the Mandalay Bay shooting.
If you have a mentally unstable person (how they got that way is a whole other thing), a gun that can fire at a rate more akin to fully automatic with ammunition, and a bunch of people that the armed wants to kill all together, the easiest component to remove at that point is either the gun or the shooter (in an immediate sense).
Hence the "armed teacher/guard" v the gun regulation argument. No one is really explaining that unpleasant part, but there it is.
Mental health issues are also obviously a factor. However, we have a government currently arguing whether young people should even have to buy catastrophic coverage, so the luxury of mental health care is not going to be accessible to everyone.
I don't think the impact of school shootings is captured solely by looking at total of students killed. There are a couple of things that are of concern. Obviously, the damage done to people who survive mass shootings is tremendous. The students and their families/loved ones are affected in a direct manner.
Also, mass school shootings shouldn't be normalized. Kids being killed, witnessing killings, and hiding from killers is not okay. It's not acceptable. Because of the media coverage, it's also creating an imprint on the national psyche. It's bigger than just an "insignificant" number of people because it's changed from the fascination with and sympathy for victims of the Columbine High School shooting to criticizing survivors of the Parkland shooting for speaking out. That's a huge cultural shift.
Maybe if there are enough corporate workplace shootings like at YouTube HQ, then gun regulation will be more urgent?
I love shooting and I don't want to have my gun ownership reviewed, but I have changed my mind about gun regulation after the Aurora shooting and the Mandalay Bay shooting.
If you have a mentally unstable person (how they got that way is a whole other thing), a gun that can fire at a rate more akin to fully automatic with ammunition, and a bunch of people that the armed wants to kill all together, the easiest component to remove at that point is either the gun or the shooter (in an immediate sense).
Hence the "armed teacher/guard" v the gun regulation argument. No one is really explaining that unpleasant part, but there it is.
Captain.Heroin
Bluelight Crew
Captain.Heroin
Bluelight Crew
I believe we need to address the mental health crisis in the US and a lot of the other problems will go away.
cduggles
Bluelight Crew
We agree. The health insurance industry and lobby does not. Mental health care tends to be long-term and pricey.
I believe mental health is paramount to a healthy society. These school shootings are just indicative of the extent of the problem.
I believe mental health is paramount to a healthy society. These school shootings are just indicative of the extent of the problem.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Yeah absolutely. The core of this problem is mental health. There are many factors... we tend to marginalize mentally ill people and misunderstand them, instead of helping them. We also have an extremely angry culture right now... our rights are being slowly stripped away, and our money is worth less and less compared to rising costs. People are feeling desperate. And then we have both sides of the fence inflaming these tensions for political purposes which gives people a particular focus for their rage, something instead of whose fault it really is. It's a very toxic environment we live in, and for those who might be willing to do the whole murder/suicide thing, mass shootings are looking better and better, in large part because of how many there are and how publicized they are, how many people talk about these people after they're gone, etc.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
Even adding up all the collateral harm like survivor trauma, which I don't deny is a very big deal for the victims, still isn't that many on a societal level. All I'm saying is it has to be kept in perspective and it's important not to lose sight of the bigger picture.
I doubt more corporate shootings would make any real difference. There are plenty of powerful organizations who have donated crazy sums to antigun regulation. It still doesn't happen.
Personally I don't think the armed teacher idea is realistic. For lots of reasons. It doesn't actually stop school shootings, and you really can't expect enough teachers to be willing to do it to make a real impact. So, low impact, high difficulty. It's just not a great option. And that's not even counting the accident risk. People who aren't interested in and don't want to be carrying guns will be much less likely to operate them responsibly.
Armed guards is a little better, still not great though. Solves some of the problems. But it would cost a lot and again won't actually stop school shootings. No matter what some might say, school shooters are usually suicidal. They expect to die when they do it so they're not gonna be stopped by armed guards.
Better regulation could help a lot, but a I said before, it's not gonna happen. It's purely one of those "if I were God here's what I'd do" hypotheticals.
I'm sure there's probably things that could be done that might save some lives. But like you said, it's more than just the number of lives. Even if we did spend a fortune and lowered the average death count, people wouldn't perceive things to be much different, there would still be a school shooting problem. It would just lower the threshold of how many need to die for it to become major news.
And speaking of, and also speaking of things that won't happen. If the news hadn't constantly made a circus out of it, I bet that would have prevented a couple shootings. Way too late now, and they were never gonna and I don't believe in media censorship. But it's still kinda irresponsible.
When I think about this, I keep coming back to the same conclusion. That the best option would be to reform the entire educational system. I don't think it works very well at all anyway, and if we could have a better educated society AND get rid of the school shooting phenomenon without any messy gun control regulations, that would be pretty ideal.
Not saying we should get rid of the schools just to stop the shootings, I'm saying we should get rid of the schools and replace them, and a sit just so happens by doing that we'd get rid of the school shooting problem too. The schools are likely a big part of the cause to begin with anyway. Many teenage mental health issues stem from their experienced in the school system. So better education, and no school shootings, and better mental health, and without the gun control problem, and if we could do it all and wind up saving money in the end it would be an unbeatable deal.
If nothing else, it's a prospect that should be examined, but it isn't because we just take it as a given that the education system has to work this way "just because".
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Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Totally agreed. The media has sensationalized the whole thing. Ever since Columbine it's been a series of copycat school shootings. People that are prone to do such a thing see those who came before them as heroes, and look up to them. They got the reaction these people want, so they see a way forward to get what they think they want, too.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
I think part of it is this desperate psychological need some people feel to be noticed and remembered. My exbf always used to say the worst thing he could think of is to be forgotten.
I can't say I relate to it at all. I have no desire to be remembered. But it's a strong compulsion for some people and school shootings give them that.
I can't say I relate to it at all. I have no desire to be remembered. But it's a strong compulsion for some people and school shootings give them that.
other countries have mental health issues and nowhere near the level of gun violence of the u.s.
i agree it's a complex problem.
alasdair
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
I know I say this over and over and over and fkin over again, but I'll say it once more. Why should anyone focus on gun violence stats? It makes sense that you'd look at how gun control impacts the overall stats for a given social problem, but looking only at gun specific stats makes no sense. It doesn't give you the full picture.
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JGrimez
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What type of comment is this??
If there was someone making some comments about advanced mathematics and I said to them that they "are talking like (insert asian racial insult)", would that be OK? Of course not.
"sorry you're offended, but if you want to post views held by certain kinds of people, you shouldn't be shocked if you're lumped in with them"
How do I get people to stop insulting me with labels, and instead address the actual content of my arguments?
Some of you are basically arguing for an echo chamber, and that's the type of thinking that got Trump elected.
That's not a motive, that's nonsense. How does being an "alt-right conspiracy theorist" explain the motive for a rich gambler to open fire on a crowd of country music fans?
Even if what I said was false I didn't lie because it was a vague statement that could have been subjectively interpreted.
It's all relative. My point (which I assumed would have been easier to understand) is that compared to the carnage of school shootings and the subsequent call to "BAN GUNS!!!11", the hero saving the day stories do not get anywhere close to the same amount of coverage. Say what you will about dead kids getting ratings (why promote this in the first place??), but the 2A issue is at the forefront of public discourse at the moment, and the media is not being honest with presenting both sides of the issue.
And I've been saying for a while: stop giving the shooters so much fame. It just adds more incentive for some of these losers to carry out massacres. Why don't we give the people that stop the shootings the credit they deserve instead.
Once again please re-read what I wrote, I was very specific with what I said.
CNN did not run a NXIVM story for an entire month when the story first broke. It was only until they were forced to report on it (when Mack was arrested)
I know because I kept an eye on it. Because the mainstream media are deceptive and they attempt to cover up for their friends/donors.
Go ask your friends if they've heard of NXIVM and if they know any details at all about this massive scandal (apart from simply Allison Mack being involved).
What did I lie about? Turns out that you are the liar.
Read what I write very carefully before you go on a misinformed tirade.
Good point. Yes it is a complex problem. Nobody can explain why exactly it's happening.
And if someone ever posits an alternative theory they get labeled a conspiracist. Thought people would be more open to suggestions.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
If by alternative theory you mean that disgusting insanity that it's all staged. Then yes, that's conspiracy theorist crap.
Saying nobody can otherwise explain it seems like a huge stretch. What's to explain, some young teenage males wind up feeling driven to be seen and remembered and noticed and hate their peers so they go on a rampage.
Something my mother always says is how she's surprised high schools don't get burned to the ground more often. A lot of students truly hate school, I don't see anything strange about it.
I do see something strange and sickening (but not unexplainable) about those nuts who think it's all stages. Fuck those people seriously. That's shit goes too far. Believe in whatever conspiracies you like but when you start sending letters to grieving parents telling them to stop lying about their not really dead but still dead children is the line for me where my patience entirely runs out.
Saying nobody can otherwise explain it seems like a huge stretch. What's to explain, some young teenage males wind up feeling driven to be seen and remembered and noticed and hate their peers so they go on a rampage.
Something my mother always says is how she's surprised high schools don't get burned to the ground more often. A lot of students truly hate school, I don't see anything strange about it.
I do see something strange and sickening (but not unexplainable) about those nuts who think it's all stages. Fuck those people seriously. That's shit goes too far. Believe in whatever conspiracies you like but when you start sending letters to grieving parents telling them to stop lying about their not really dead but still dead children is the line for me where my patience entirely runs out.
Cream Gravy?
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I think people really overlook the tendency of high school age kids to chastise and ostracize their peers. When these shooting like Columbine and Santa Fe are performed by the students themselves, I think we know the true source - teenage bullying and angst. I never wanted to shoot up my peers but there were times my peers thought I might back in high school. In fact, they're assumption that I might be that crazy was my main defense against bullying. If they thought I might kill them, at least they left me alone.
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JGrimez
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Once again, you refuse to understand the claims, you misrepresent them, you group them together with nonsense, and then you insult and demonize a person you disagree with.
Please stop doing this (to me, anyway. Don't care what you tell your insane friends).
You wouldn't want to hear what I really think of your opinions. But I keep that to myself because I am a well-manned gentleman.
There's a difference between claiming an attack is staged versus claiming it is a false flag. One is extremely unlikely/disinfomation, and one is backed by evidence.
One is claiming the whole thing was set up and nobody died, the other is agreeing there was an attack but disagreeing on who exactly conducted it.
False flags do happen, governments do attack their own people. This is a fact. This is not a conspiracy theory.
If you want to seriously discuss why I think Parkland was a false flag and if you're open to objectively assessing evidence then I'm willing to respectfully do so.
But you are not and that's fine but what is not OK is you attempting to insult me and throw me in with the lot who think that no children died at Sandy Hook.
Translation = "I cannot explain this"
Mass murder/suicide for some fleeting fame and being loathed by the entire world = not an explanation.
You don't see anything strange with deciding to grab a gun and go on a suicide mission murdering innocent people? That's psychopathic thinking, and I'm truly afraid if we've gotten to the point of normalizing homicidal violence. I hated school at times lots of kids hate school. Kids gets bullied all over the world. Important question: what makes the US different?
Hey we agree on something.
Stop talking to me like I'm one of those people.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Yeah, children are extremely cruel sometimes. I got picked on a lot and I would find myself fantasizing about hurting bullies to get back at them. Of course I would never do something like shoot up a school, I never even fought anyone about it. And I had good friends and a good family so I had a sense of self-worth regardless. But some people are more psychopathic than others. Once it happened the first time at Columbine, and everyone made such a huge deal about it for so long (understandably), school shootings became an option in some peoples' minds. Hey, I know how to both get back at these fuckers and go down in history - mass murder/suicide. It's just about the most horrific and terrible thing there is, a kid going into school and randomly killing a bunch of other kids, it leaves a huge impact on people. If someone is looking to burn it all down, so to speak, they might find the idea very appealing. And as more and more of them started happening, it became more and more normalized. Nowadays I think all kids are always thinking about school shootings. It's no wonder they keep happening... there are always some people for whom that sort of thing has appeal. And now it's a firmly entrenched option.
![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
zephyr
Ex-Bluelighter
Kids are on social media all the time now. Its now common amongst parents of teens I know to have incidents of social media bullying including anon sharing of private pics for tevenge, false rape accusations, rumours spread by jealous peers and thats involved mainly 15 yo kids.
None of the schools wsnted to involve themselves and most were traced and handled by parents. But some have never had their wrongs even acknowledged by anyone.
Back when we were young we passed notes and had face to face stand offs.
That was better as you had the chance to defend yourself in person and things came to a head then got over quick.
Now kids dont have that same right of reply so would build up a grudge.
None of the schools wsnted to involve themselves and most were traced and handled by parents. But some have never had their wrongs even acknowledged by anyone.
Back when we were young we passed notes and had face to face stand offs.
That was better as you had the chance to defend yourself in person and things came to a head then got over quick.
Now kids dont have that same right of reply so would build up a grudge.
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cj
Bluelight Crew
Truth.
mal3volent
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Pretty sure the story about the Columbine shooters being ruthlessly bullied is a myth. Harris was a psychopath and Klebold was just straight up depressed. One had a fantasy about fucking shit up, the other was going along for the ride with the goal of ending his own life. But neither of them were the outcasts they were portrayed to be. I think there's pictures of Klebold in a crowded limo going to prom not too long before the events of 4/20. They weren't part of the Trenchcoat Mafia, either. And if they had wanted to target jocks, going to the library first thing probably wasn't the best idea.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
Yeah but unless I missed it nobody here was specifically talking about columbine. We were all speaking pretty generally.
EDIT: Did some googling, results were.. Mixed. Sounded like they weren't exactly popular, and probably experienced some bullying, but were hardly outcasts either. But regardless it's pretty obvious that bullying isn't the sole cause. Bullying is hardly uncommon but shooting up your school is. There's clearly much more to it than that.
I question how much difference increased mental health support would make. Seems to me like mental health is the go to when you wanna divert attention away from guns.
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