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Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread

Most of these boys are cowards that can’t even handle the slightest bit of bullying. Their recognized MO is cowardice, they are definitely looking for a soft target, no question about it. Knowing that armed people are somewhere changes the game for virtually everything. A buddy of mine used to drive down to Georgia to rob Mom and pop pharmacies, his objective was to get drugs and stay alive and free. Large chains could have possible cop and armed guard confrontations. A school mass murders objective is to kill his peers with as little opposition as possible. All I’m saying is the psychology changes, these kids are still going to commit mass killings, but they may change their methods if they know they can’t shoot many people without being taken out by a good guy with a gun.
 
People commit spree killings for reasons that are fundamentally about mental health, you can't apply logic you use for people who commit crimes for criminal reasons to it like that.

If you can't see how their minds work then it's not like I can convince you why you're wrong, all I can do is repeat that I think anyone with even modest abilities to read people can see quite apparently why spree killers aren't gonna be stopped by threat of death. Even if they kill fewer people, it'll be major news. They do it because they feel persecuted and wronged and are going to make what they see as the source of that pain suffer in kind. Taking the pain they feel is unseen and make it as visible as possible and direct it at what they see as it's source. So they target either their strongest social environment or one very similar. They won't change target just because they might die because the target is chosen for a personal reason, it has to be that target. And they already feel their life is over so it won't dissuade them to out armed security in place. They'll either target the security first or focus on killing those they feel are most directly responsible in a more direct order, but it'll keep happening.

They aren't ordinary criminals, if they were what you're suggesting is effective but it won't be for this kind of person.

But if you don't realize what you're dealing with then we aren't gonna agree and there's little else i can say to argue with. To me it's obvious.

People who steal generally want to survive, survival is generally part of the motive. So they will be dissuaded by threat of death. Spree killers consider themselves as good as dead already so it won't work on them. When they aren't killed in the attack they almost always take their own life immediately after. That's the most compelling objective reason this won't work even if you don't agree with the emotional feelings stuff.
 
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Droppersneck said:
^Even so that’s a lot of trained guns on those planes.
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only if you think ~8% is "a lot".

Droppersneck said:
Imagine if every school had an officer like the one in Maryland! You would have kids thinking twice about shooting up schools.
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your logic is barmy. the school you used as an example had 'a good guy with a gun' and that didn't stop the shooting. two people were shot and the shooter took his own life!

there was 'a good guy with a gun' at parkland. 17 dead.

alasdair
 
Having armed people on planes is a shit deterrence too. And again it's because the hijackers today already expect to die anyway. And the kind of hijacker who does it to get something more earthly as opposed to some reward in the afterlife, well we figured out the ultimate deterrence to that decades ago and it costs us nothing. You just make sure it's known that they won't get it. That you'll sooner let them kill the hostages than give you a nickel. And it worked great. Nobody pulls those kinds of hijackings anymore.
 
Jess agree to disagree. These kids are cowards that are psychologically weak bc of the lack of any solid male role models. The last thing they want is confrontation. It’s all about the soft target, that said they will continue to kill regardless of what is banned or changed. This is societal, how else do you explain school shootings rising astronomically since the implementation of the gun free school Zones by creepy joe.

alasdairm said:
only if you think ~8% is "a lot".

your logic is barmy. the school you used as an example had 'a good guy with a gun' and that didn't stop the shooting. two people were shot and the shooter took his own life!

there was 'a good guy with a gun' at parkland. 17 dead.

alasdair
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Well we have pretty heavy protections before anyone even boards a plane. Are you referencing the broward cowards that stood outside? Parkland was horrible, but I don’t hear much about how the kid was visited by local police over 40 times at his house, reported to the fbi on multiple occasions, everyone in the school seemed to already think he was going to do this. With the govenrmt failing at so many levels you have to see why us liberty hounds aren’t so quick to jump on the blaming of an inanimate object bandwagon and give the govenrmt more regulatory power :\
 
Yeah strongly agree to disagree. I mean no offense personally but I think the male role model thing is almost laughably over simplified. I mean bad home environment is related and no male role model is a part of that, so it's all loosely connected. But in the end, they do it because they feel their life is over, that the world has treated them unfairly and that it should pay for that. That nobody hears them so they will make their attackers pay and pay loudly as possible. Then, their life was over anyway, but now it's definitely over, so they kill themselves. That's why they do it. They want to have the power they feel has been robbed of them. Their only concern is killing enough people before being it's over.

If anything, I'd expect many of them would see armed security as a good thing. Like you said, such people tend towards cowardice. I do agree with you there somewhat. They feel for years they've done nothing about how people keep fucking them over, and this is when they snap and decide to fight back. But it's still a tendency towards avoidance. So many of them would likely prefer to be shot by someone else than have to choose to do it themselves.

Point is this absolutely will not have the desired outcome and I think that's painfully obvious.
 
Droppersneck said:
Jess agree to disagree. These kids are cowards that are psychologically weak bc of the lack of any solid male role models.
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Oh come on, that is such a bullshit copout. I think you know that.

Maybe these kids are killing people because a) they want to, and b) they have the means to. Your society enshrines that means in law and culture and it is utter madness.
 
Most of them were male too, and being male is related, but it's not itself a cause. It's just one of several factors related to home environment stressors. Spree killers have mental problems, bad home environments cause and exacerbate mental problems. But you're kidding yourself if you think fixing fatherless upbringing itself will solve spree killings. It's much more complex than that.
 
The collapse of the nuclear family is directly correlated to all of this. The destruction crosses all cultural and socioeconomic divides. I don’t live the traditional lifestyle so I reckon I’m part of the problem, but I don’t have any children(that I know of). I’m clearly over simplifying things, but that is clearly the root cause. Look at the time line for heavens sake!
 
Droppersneck said:
Well we have pretty heavy protections before anyone even boards a plane. Are you referencing the broward cowards that stood outside?
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i'm highlighting the fact that you used an incident in which a good guy with a gun failed to stop a shooting as an example of how good guys with guns are a deterrent to school shootings...

alasdair
 
Lots of things are correlated. If you just take things that changed around the same time school shootings stated you'll find countless shit. Maybe the internet causing it cause that became popular around that time too.

Man I'm not saying they're unrelated. But it's laughable to suggest fatherless homes cause spree killings. It's just one of lots of variables that contribute to the bad mental health that causes it.

Personally i think the coverage of school shootings is one of the biggest reasons why young boys with the psychological tendency towards spree shootings are now so much more likely to use this as their outlet.
 
Droppersneck said:
Of the 27 deadliest mass shooters 26 were without fathers.
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All of them had guns.

Hmm.

Droppersneck said:
The collapse of the nuclear family is directly correlated to all of this. The destruction crosses all cultural and socioeconomic divides. I don’t live the traditional lifestyle so I reckon I’m part of the problem, but I don’t have any children(that I know of). I’m clearly over simplifying things, but that is clearly the root cause. Look at the time line for heavens sake!
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I'm not sure this is "clear" at all. Furthermore, what can you do about this situation? Should we make divorce illegal again?

Humans evolved in the most brutal of environments. Earth is literally a closed system, there is really very little material input from outside anymore. One way to thrive in such a system is to evolve aggression and a propensity to sudden violence so that you can eat other animals without feeling too bad about it. We are exceptionally violent, we came to dominate the globe because we are willing to do whatever it takes to survive. We cannot just 'switch' those tendencies off, they served us very well for most of our early history. I suspect our future is going to be determined by how well we can suppress or channel that tendency.

Young men worldwide seem to want to gain 'infamy/notoriety/fame'. Look at the vast majority of performing artists and DJ's and whatever. Many are male. There is a desire to stand out, to create something, to be credited with doing something. To be the author of ones fate in what appears to be a deterministic universe. In a vast globe of 7 billion, how can one make a mark? I'm of the view that creativity is the vital key to chanelling some of these tendencies away from destruction and into something useful.

I've often wondered if this sort of stuff happened in early human societies. Did young men suddenly storm into tribal camps with spears and start randomly killing people?
 
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Since I think it's a mental health question and I DON'T think such behavior is normal (humans are social creatures, evolved to cooperate not mindlessly destroy). I think the biggest problem that's a true cause is that for some people, the school system is a hellish experience. Fix that and you'll eliminate that reason this happens. Which I'd suspect would make up 90% of the mass shootings or more. Which is why I think we could kill 2 birds with one stone and get the best outcome possible by reforming the school system. It's a joke already as far as educating people. So if we could stop school shootings and get a better educated population for the price of one that would be great.

In some ways I almost hope I'm wrong, because if I'm right that means the best solution is one that NOBODY on either major side of politics is talking about.
 
Jesse said:
Since I think it's a mental health question and I DON'T think such behavior is normal (humans are social creatures, evolved to cooperate not mindlessly destroy).
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But the thing is, we are living beings and can impact reality. This means we can bring something into it that didn't previously exist, or remove something that did. There comes a point where you realise you can create or destroy. Destruction is easier in many ways.

We are relatively powerless, but for young men that idea is intolerable.

I'm actually very interested in the idea of changing the education system. I couldn't take it really, I was expelled from five shools and simply could not concentrate or learn in that environment. I resented it and hated it, and it left me with this idea that learning is pointless or something to avoid. Thankfully, I had an awakening and taught myself everything I could, but I still think the impact of the education system warped my 'destiny'.

Its relatively well quantified that girls do better in such an environment than boys. Perhaps when you say that humans evolved to cooperate, you mean that females evolved that trait much more strongly than males. Males probably evolved to compete with other males i.e. male warrior hypothesis. I recall reading that it is theorised that female humans first 'evolved' language, and men had to scurry to pick this up too. Ceratinaly, when you do not have language, violence will serve. My cat is unable to tell me to fuck off when I pat her for too long, or in the 'wrong way' or something, so she will suddenly nip or scratch me, and this tells me everything I need to know about her feelings.

invegauser said:
better?
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Gotcha. :)
 
Yeah but your cat really didn't evolve to cooperate. Cats are true lone predators unlike humans.

But God are they such cute little killing machines.
 
Imagine the sort of world we'd have if a feline had developed this weird recursive self aware intelligence that we suffer from!
 
It's likely that the reason we are as intelligent as we are is directly because of cooperative social system. All the most intelligent animals on this planet are social animals like us.

Hunting and killing can be done with instincts, but it takes true intelligence to comprehend concepts like "I'm gonna kill myself cause that bitch called me fat".
 
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