Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread

[Xorkoth]

Okay, so some people are writing opinion pieces about how they think we should repeal the second amendment. Just because the sentiment is out there in some people doesn't mean that'll happen, or that everyone who thinks we need better gun control believes we should repeal the second amendment (you might not be saying this). I don't think we should do that. I just think gun control needs to change. The thing I have the biggest problem with by far, really the main issue for me, is the gun show loophole. It seems stupid and ridiculous to have laws for background checking, but have this readily available and legal way to totally ignore those laws. There are billboards on the highway for gun shows where I live, they're not exactly secret. It seems really weird. I also have a problem with how much political power the NRA has, that whole thing is sketchy. Each politician receiving an NRA "grade" that depends on how much they support the NRA, and a higher grade gives more campaign contributions and shit? So sketchy.

 

[alasdairm]

right. these are opinion pieces in the media.

the only politician who's talked openly about taking guns (without due process no less) is president trump.

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

Much as I hate to defend trump, as I recall in context he was talking about specific at risk people. Not the general population.

Still another appealing disregard for the rule of law and due process, but not quite what you're implying.

 

[alasdairm]

i wasn't implying anything. take my comment at face value.

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

You're right it's wishful thinking. The primary reason they won't take the guns by force is they know it's not in their interests.

Even the gun lobby for the most part recognizes that's not something worth seriously worrying about. Because it's extremely unlikely they'll try that for the foreseeable future of America's political climate. Which is why their main concern is them preventing the sale of new guns.

Historically American gun control for this reason has always grandfathered the existing guns in circulation. At the time it was a political compromise. But in many ways its backfired for the antigun lobby. Because it's resulted in a massive spike in sales of the weapons most likely to be banned with every new political event that sparks discussion of gun control. Sparked by fears in the pro gun crowd that they may again be banned and so the more grandfathered the better.

Which is one of many reasons the suggestions these spree killings are staged is downright idiotic.

You know, ive said many times how an assault weapon ban is stupid, but let's go over all the consequences of the first assault weapon ban by Clinton in the 90s.

According to the statistics it was a failure at doing anything to improve public safety in pretty much any respect. But that's not even the worst part. As a result of it, and fears of a future one without a sunset clause. It has resulted in a significant increase in so called assault weapons in circulation.

So, the Clinton assault weapon ban apart from failing, also left us with a world where not only are assault weapons not banned either for possession or future purchase. But because of it we have even more assault weapons in circulation.

Not that I think it matters because I think the whole assault weapon fear is bullshit, but I can't help find it laughable just how even if you suppose that assault weapons whatever you define them to be should be banned, the first assault weapon ban has made doing that much harder and less effective and increased the number of owned assault weapons.

So it wasn't already stupid to ban guns over appearance, even if there was something to the reasoning of banning assault weapons the Clinton Era attempt to do so would have in fact made things much worse. Ironically it's a good thing that it was bullshit or society would be worse off for it.

Bravo. Another masterpiece of political brilliance.

 

[swilow]

swillow, Xorkoth, alasdairm: thank you. i read that post when i woke up and didn't realize it was an opinion piece. got my panties in a bunch over nothing. between photo shopping and opinion pieces there is way more misleading info on the net then before.

You're right, and its downright terrifying in many ways. The ability to shape information so willfully and totally, and therefore knowledge/beliefs and behaviour above all else, has emerged very rapidly and I feel its something we could lost control over very easily. So many peoples just accept what they have fed to them and shape a world according to those forcefed perceptions. Its something almost bigger than humans. I must say, I have always distrusted facebook/twitter and all that shit, and pay it no mind and have no part of either. Perhaps I am laming myself in a way, but I don't feel like I'm missing out on whatever happens on fucking facebook all that much

I think we will see a lot more information shaping and data mining, and stuff like this Cambridge Analytica row. Beware people, protect you minds!

 

[tathra]

(it's really hard to make fun of and take twitter seriously because twit is already in the name)

by that logic, massacres are comedy acts because "slaughter" is full of "laughter".

 

[JessFR]

Bad example. Among other reasons because slaughter isn't pronounced s-laughter.

Better point is that many of us don't use the word twit as part of our vernacular. I don't.

I really do hate social media though including Twitter.

 

[tathra]

surveillance footage of the Mandalay Bay shooter's last few days.

what's remarkable about it is how mundane and ordinary it is. the only reason anything in it looks suspicious is because of the benefit of hindsight. nothing he did was unusual or alarming.

 

[JGrimez]

^ because he was probably a patsy. Did they show footage of him bringing up the dozens of guns into the room? Or just his luggage?

This is a reply from the meme thread in order to not clutter it up (re David Hogg):

In fact they and their families are the only people qualified to decide whether they're exploiting their friends or not)

That's false, and a way of appealing to authority except in this case the authority is a little kid (or possibly his ex-FBI father or others that are directing him)

they're doing what they believe is right, they're responding to terrible trauma.

They're doing what they're told. They didn't create this movement by themselves. It's not easy to organize what they've been able to so far.
it has obviously been orchestrated and they are being used because they are children that garner sympathy.

Whereas people like you who bash them and send hate towards them for it are just scared, hateful adults who have their heads so far up their asses they can't even see how cruel they're being. To children. Fucking gross, man.

^ This is exactly what I'm talking about. They are speaking on adult issues, so why would they be exempt from criticism because they're young or because they witness something. A traumatized individual would actually make less sense since they've gone through a shocking experience so they might even need therapy to help them through it. Doing daily TV interviews is not something your average traumatized individual would want to do. Maybe he's doing it because he feels he has to, or maybe he's just not that traumatized.

Have you seen the videos he was filming inside the closet? They were very suspicious. He was not scared or alarmed at all in fact he was coaxing his classmates into verbalizing anti-gun propaganda.
https://youtu.be/gZVioBDjFeM?t=58s @1:30 "talk about diversity"
Honestly considering how much suspicion there is around this whole attack (teacher witnessing what looked like a SWAT-style police shooter inside + officers told to stay outside the school and not engage/neutralize the shooter), plus Hoggwash's dad being ex-FBI and the subsequent campaign for gun control - I would not be at all surprised if this Hogg kid knew the attack was going to happen/ If that is the case which the evidence points towards - then not only does this kid not deserve sympathy, but he is actually an evil little turd who's a pawn of deep state operatives. Also explains how he became a household name so quickly to spread his garbage.

How the fuck has some tribal political culture rearranged your brain so much that instead of feeling empathy for this kid

I feel empathy for the victims of this attack. Less so for the ones using it to push a misguided agenda (statistics show gun control is not a significant cause when it comes to murder rates). Once he starts getting on TV and arguing for gun control laws he ceases to be just a poor traumatized little kid. He opens himself up to criticism. And he is a rude person

 

[JessFR]

Right.. He's being rude.. Yes.. This all makes so much sense.. I see that now. 8(

I ever so slightly agree with you in the sense that I hate it when it seems like parents are pushing their kids to be political about issues they don't particularly understand, which is sometimes (and sometimes not) the case with stuff like this. And I'm not particularly a fan of the "something bad happened to me so now I automatically become an expert on the subject and advocate for change" mentality. I think lots of harm comes to society from people like that.

That said, I don't think I could more violently disagree with you about about everything else. The way you talk about these kids is still wrong. They're still kids who've been through a trauma. And don't even get me started on that patsy bullshit. I think it is truly the height of stupidity almost beyond words.

I also find the name calling really low. It speaks to a juvenile mind. Which I suppose you have to be to think spree killings are a conspiracy. And the more spree killings that happen with still no gun control in sight, the more obviously and laughable idiotic such suggestions become.

 

[JGrimez]

Well then you're just refusing to look at evidence. Why did a teacher see a man wearing swat gear inside the school shooting? According to the timeline, Cruz was able to get into his costume and arm himself in 2 minutes. And where's all the gear that she described?
Why did 4 police officers wait outside the school while there was someone inside killing children? The lone campus cop I can understand, but when 3 more broward county officers arrived, why didn't they neutralize the target? We even have police radio telling people not to enter. Why didn't the FBI take Cruz's guns? A relative of Cruz told them directly "you need to take his gun I think he may shoot up a school" (paraphrasing) and he even posted online that he wanted to be a school shooter. He was visited something like 30 times by authorities and they still allowed him to keep his weapon.

So in light of all those facts, why isn't the public discussion around the massive failures of law enforcement who could have prevented this attack? Why was it straight for the guns - literally while the shooting was still happening. You can choose to believe what you want, but if you cannot explain all the strange things surrounding it then you're not putting any alternative theories to rest. Understandably most people refuse to even entertain the thought of a small part of the government killing children to push an agenda, but false flag attacks are nothing new and they are effective (for this reason "there's no way they would do this so it's automatically impossible")

violently disagree

hey no need for more violence

 

[JGrimez]

Some developments re Vegas:

HIDDEN MOTIVE: Hushed FBI Intel Report Reveals Vegas Shooting Triggered by Paddock’s Anti-Trump Politics

In public, the FBI will tell you they still have not pinpointed a motive for the deadly Las Vegas massacre at Mandalay Bay.

That was well over six months ago, on Oct. 1.


If this is true, the FBI is not very good at its job. Few believe that to be the case as far as the investigative prowess of rank-and-file agents who do the grunt work for such an investigation.
Privately, however, FBI insiders and intelligence officials talk a different game. A major motivating force behind the murder of 58 people in Las Vegas was Stephen Paddock’s disdain for Donald Trump’s election.

Trump’s politics.

Trump’s America.

And whomever else was involved in possibly helping Paddock — and there are many theories on accomplices and co-conspirators — likewise shared Paddock’s disdain, FBI sources said.

The concert crowd was targeted because it was packed with Trump supporters and likely GOP voters who helped propel Trump into the White House, FBI insiders maintain.

Country music. America. Apple pie. A predominantly white audience.
Differing from the official FBI and Las Vegas Metro Police Department narrative, revelations pinpointed by a True Pundit investigation include:

• The FBI uncovered specific evidence showing that Paddock was anti-Trump and had an affiliation with ANTIFA, though it never was divulged to the public and agents did not follow such leads, per orders of their superiors.
• The FBI & Vegas police worked hard to conceal Paddock’s politics and a classified report linking his ideologies to the massacre.
• FBI and intelligence officials believe Paddock and associates chose to strike the Las Vegas country music concert with over 22,000 people because they likely supported President Trump. FBI agents said they were instructed to keep that key motive quiet too.
• When FBI agents and agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives informed FBI bosses that Paddock didn’t start buying dozens of guns until after Trump’s election, they were told to keep that fact quiet and shrouded
  

The LVMPD leaked several photos of Paddock’s hotel suite in the days following the attack. These photos depict what appears to be Paddock, deceased and on the floor of suite 32-135.

The official narrative is that Paddock acted alone, bought numerous semi-automatic weapons for some unknown reason, and employed these weapons by himself in the attack on the Route 91 Festival. Several of the firearms pictured were configured with “bump stocks” in order to maximize each weapon’s lethal prowess.
However, the narrative does not account for the number of weapons procured or the escape plan of Paddock. Also, this narrative does not align with the photos that have been leaked to the media.
Regarding the massive number of weapons and ammunition magazines, Paddock may have been preparing for some sort of conflict, sources said. From the evidence collected it appears Paddock planned to fight his way out of the Mandalay Bay if necessary.
Not die by his own hand.


https://truepundit.com/hidden-motiv...ng-triggered-by-paddocks-anti-trump-politics/

 

[JessFR]

Well then you're just refusing to look at evidence. Why did a teacher see a man wearing swat gear inside the school shooting? According to the timeline, Cruz was able to get into his costume and arm himself in 2 minutes. And where's all the gear that she described?
Why did 4 police officers wait outside the school while there was someone inside killing children? The lone campus cop I can understand, but when 3 more broward county officers arrived, why didn't they neutralize the target? We even have police radio telling people not to enter. Why didn't the FBI take Cruz's guns? A relative of Cruz told them directly "you need to take his gun I think he may shoot up a school" (paraphrasing) and he even posted online that he wanted to be a school shooter. He was visited something like 30 times by authorities and they still allowed him to keep his weapon.

So in light of all those facts, why isn't the public discussion around the massive failures of law enforcement who could have prevented this attack? Why was it straight for the guns - literally while the shooting was still happening. You can choose to believe what you want, but if you cannot explain all the strange things surrounding it then you're not putting any alternative theories to rest. Understandably most people refuse to even entertain the thought of a small part of the government killing children to push an agenda, but false flag attacks are nothing new and they are effective (for this reason "there's no way they would do this so it's automatically impossible")


hey no need for more violence

No, you were right the the first time. I'm refusing to look at the evidence. Specifically your evidence. I'm not gonna discuss it with you. I would much rather do... Just about anything else. I have a perfectly usable magic 8 ball that nearly 20% of the blue liquid has somehow disappeared from over the past 20 years (seriously that's a much more interesting question than this conspiracy nonsense, how does that happen?). If I want to talk about conspiracies I can get much more sensible answers from that.

Seriously. It's a sealed plastic ball with no visible leaks?
That's the conspiracy I want addressed here. Who's stealing the dark blue liquid from my magic 8 ball. And more importantly how?

 

[JessFR]

Eh, purple, blue, bluish purple.

Presumably it must just evaporate somehow. Plastic is extremely water resistant so it must be that the seams have a gap too small to leak but wide enough to evaporate.

I Googled it and it turns out that the ball isn't full of the magic 8ball liquid, the liquid is in a smaller capsule attached to the top. So I suppose it actually could leak into the hollow 8ball shell. Still, given how slow the liquid decreases I figure it must be a very very small opening at the seams somewhere.

In hindsight it's obvious the 8ball can't be full of the liquid. Or it would be much heavier.

But at this rate by the time I'm 60 it'll be unusable. And I got it when I was like 9 or so, so I don't think I still have the receipt.

I know this is off topic, but I submit that this is still a much more intelligent conversation that contributes much more to the world and is generally just more educational and worth having than the one about the school shooting conspiracy theory.

 

[swilow]

Indeed it is because we basically don't bother with these conspiracies on bluelight. Jgrimez, drop it please. Nobody is interested in helping you disrespect the dead.

 

[JessFR]

refilling that section of the 8-ball with more water, that would be a neat trick. (before anyone get's smarta**, i mean refill it and have it be just as good as if not very, very close to s.i.b.)

don't think you could make a lot of money off that but something i would like to see. (i've seen the insides of too many but none made whole again )

ask 8-ball if a solution to these shootings will be found someday. (back on topic)

Ask again later... Figures. Not even the magic 8ball has an answer. Though mine might be unreliable if it doesn't have enough magic 8ball liquid.

Also shame on you for considering making counterfeit magic 8ball liquid. You're never going to get accurate answers without genuine magic 8ball liquid.

 

[JGrimez]

Ikr, my amyl nitrate keeps disappearing and I never spill or drink it. WTH??


I respect the no-BS talk, but I"m sorry those are facts. Eyewitness testimony from a teacher, and even the media was lambasting those police for not entering. You don't have to answer it but that is a valid question in this debate: why aren't we discussing the failures of law enforcement, and instead focusing on gun control? They are equally important topics. I find the law enforcement failure issue much more important. If police were able to stop all these attacks then they'd have an argument for disarming everyone. But for 4 cops to wait outside while there's an active shooter. I just cannot even believe that this happened (also a bit offensive to say that I disrespect the dead. If I was killed in an attack I would want investigators to dig for the truth and inform everyone. Disrespecting the dead would be going after their families and yell at them that their children weren't really killed which we all can agree is reprehensible)

"When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

​

So there were four armed officers outside the school. And none of them did anything, according to CNN. They instead waited for Coral Springs police to lead the charge inside."

 

[JessFR]

Asking for the truth isn't disrespecting the dead. Ignoring it might be though, and name calling a victim definitely is.

Man if you wanna ask why the cops didn't go in sooner, you can. Would probably be best if it were in a different thread because that's not a gun control question. But you can. But if you bring up conspiracies don't be surprised if a lot of us start mocking it as the disgusting bs it is.

Personally I don't wanna just sit here and act like I know all the facts in saying they should have gone in sooner. They might have had legitimate reasons not to. I see it all the time when people after the fact criticize and second guess a situation they know little about and just make all these bullshit assumptions.

You see it happen a lot with hostage situations where people died. People start crying "why didn't they go in!". When in fact they were right not to cause statistically you're better off in most hostage situations to wait it out and talk the shooter down. No it doesn't always work out but it has better odds than the cops playing Rambo with it. Point is people don't even know how little they know. I know I might not know enough to know why it might not have been wise to rush in. And I know from experience that most people won't let their ignorance stop their theorizing, and that most people suck at properly imagining how a situation would likely have gone down at the time and not with the benefit of hindsight. Using only what could have been known at the time.

Now a school shooting isn't inherently the same situation as a more conventional hostage situation, but there are still similar rules. It can still be that people's assumptions about what's best to do isn't what's best to do.

An intelligent debate about it can be had. But from other shit you've already said I don't expect you'll be interested in a sensible and rational discussion about the merits of different police response options.

So why didn't they go in? I dunno. But even if we suppose they should have. The first and only thing I'm gonna think is incompetence. Not conspiracy. Because conspiracy is so much less believable. It goes against any sensible logic, it goes against the evidence. It is the exclusive domain of pattern seeking crazies who decide their belief first and fit reality around it.

The most obvious reason is that school shootings have been so ineffective at increasing gun control in America it makes no sense that a group so competent as to pull it off wouldn't realize that. Like I said before it only gets stupider the longer the suggestion is repeated because the gun control part of the conspiracy never materializes.

There's a million other reasons it's stupid that it shares with virtually all conspiracy theories, because they're all retarded. And since I have the misfortune of knowing quite a lot of conspiracy theorists in real life. I know more about them than I wish I did. And I am no longer willing to waste any more time on them. I highly recommend to anyone who feels the same way to do the same. Stop indulging them. Just mock them and move on. Save your benefit of the doubt for when there's at least a small chance the person might have something compelling to say. The second you know they don't, move on.

 

[JGrimez]

Man if you wanna ask why the cops didn't go in sooner, you can. Would probably be best if it were in a different thread because that's not a gun control question.

I think it's directly related. These are the authorities that some people want to trust with only having guns. Als no need for the rant against conspiracies. Conspiracy is a crime by the way. Fox reported that EMS were prevented from entering the school in the critical moments while kids lay dying inside. Broward County cops wouldn't let them enter. Why? And is Fox News conspiracy theory?

Police procedure used to be secure the area and wait for help (usually swat) to arrive. After Columbine this was changed to first officer on the scene neutralizes the active shooter. Why do you think there was an armed officer stationed at the school? If you're not willing to protect the kids then why did you sign up for the job? OK so he's a coward, but then 3 more cops turn up and also violate procedure by not neutralizing the shooter. If it wasn't planned then that's some serious incomptence. And again why isn't that the basis of the discussion after Parkland? Why didn't the FBI take Cruz's gun when they were warned?