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Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread

There are laws that everyone has to follow in any country so by default no one has complete freedom to do whatever they want anytime with no regard for anyone else.

If ppl are that reliant on having a gun that they affiliate having a gun the same as all other rights- then let me make this clear for you.

Losing the right to own a gun without any form of license, registration, reason, anount of ammo, background check, any form of being seen to give a shit about the safety if everyone else - is losing the right to be completely incompetent in handling these shootings.


If there were gun control which *shock horror* would still give you access to your precious guns, but there would at least be a way of knowing what weapons are out there, totally restricted and enforcable access to them by young kids and if thats not seen as a good thing then you should not have any rights to them at all.


By *you* I mean the gun obsessed population who couldnt give a fuck about anyone else but themselves- not you as a person as youre pretty cool actually.
 
"The New York Police Department (NYPD) reversed its decision to remove armed officers from three schools after it received backlash from parents and the community.
In the wake of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, the NYPD pulled the remainder of its armed school officers as part of Mayor Bill De Blasio’s new community policing units.
While unarmed school safety agents would remain at schools, the move was received with backlash from the community."
 
I've said a few times that I think Arming teachers as a policy is retarded. But I'm not opposed to having some system in place to allow teachers to volunteer to be armed on the provision that they receive some form of training. So I don't see a particular problem with allowing armed police in schools. Though the police haven't exactly been trustworthy of late so I can't say I blame anyone for having concerns.

Really I'm still quite partial to the more... Unorthodox solution of getting rid of the schools entirely.

Anyone given any thought to the possibility that given how bad the education system is at educating America's children. And that apparently it's so terrible that some students feel the compulsion to murder everyone there. Then perhaps it's the schools we should be getting rid of instead of the guns?

I have a feeling I'm gonna be in a minority on this one though. Normally I'd be against going straight to getting rid of the schools before trying to fix them. But we've already spent a fortune trying to fix them as a system for education. And nobody seems to consider that maybe the whole way we educate people to start with is a relic and that it's time to come up with something new.
 
invegauser said:
due to my current circumstances i've reached my limit and do not want to start ranting or being too involved with this discussion and derail it (if i haven't already).

i'm appreciative even though none of us are in the seat of world power or government that those who start and keep this site running are keen to thinking on such ideas as well as those who are long time contributers are not only opinionated but also pretty smart in a variety of things. we are all talking about something in a way and doing our best to find a solution or understanding even though we cannot directly influence the situation like those in power can. this type of conversing is exactly what gets great ideas started, develops progressive changes and is in part what the u.s.a. is about.

i'll check in with you all later. peace.
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Mate, your contributions have been well received and are appreciated :) Come back when you're ready, I can't see this particular argument ending anytime soon.
 
I think that it's a very provocative proposal to dissolve schools rather than do something about guns.

The question "what replaces the schools?" is a central question.

Another question is are you serious JessFR? Or is this a Swiftian proposal?
 
I'm somewhat serious. Seems to me the current education system isn't anything we've actually rethought in over a hundred years. And given how ineffective it is for what it costs. Perhaps it should be reconsidered.

As for what replaces it. Not sure. Ideally I'd like someone to fork a committee of experts to go through other possible education systems then trial them. Then assuming we find something better, we then do away with the current system. But the current system was thought up for a very different world than the one we live in.

Off the top of my head, perhaps it could be replaced by some fork of digital education system that goes more at the students pace and can be better tailored.

To be honest I'm reluctant to flesh out what I think we should replace it with because I think a lot of people will start arguing just to be contrary because people just assume the current systems the best one. They ignore how bad it is while imagining the worst case scenario for any alternate idea.

It's not gonna happen for that reason. But this thread isn't much about what will actually happen.
 
JessFR said:
Anyone given any thought to the possibility that given how bad the education system is at educating America's children. And that apparently it's so terrible that some students feel the compulsion to murder everyone there. Then perhaps it's the schools we should be getting rid of instead of the guns?
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I would be interested in discussing dissolving schooling for reasons other than potential massacres which seems a little bit like burning your house down because it keeps getting burgled. Or something.

Instead of arming teachers, perhaps the policy of having metal detectors and security should become more general. Until we have a better idea than 'in-patient' schooling, we probably should just try and protect it.
 
something tells me schools aren't the problem

US boy shoots his sister in the head after she refuses to give up video game controller: police

Authorities in Mississippi say a nine-year-old boy has shot his 13-year-old sister in the head and wounded her after an argument over a video game controller.

Monroe County Sheriff Cecil Cantrell told local news outlets that the girl would not give up the video game controller when her brother wanted it on Saturday (local time).

He said the boy shot the girl in the back of the head and that the bullet entered her brain.

"Last night she wasn't doing real good. This is a very serious situation," he told the Clarion Ledger.

"He's just nine. I assume he's seen this on video games or TV.

"I don't know if he knew exactly what this would do. I can't answer that. I do know it's a tragedy."

The girl was rushed to Le Bonheur's Children's Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee.

Details of her condition were not immediately known.

Authorities said they do not yet know how the firearm used in the shooting had been accessed.

The sheriff added that the circumstances of the shooting were still being investigated.

"This is all new ground for us, we've never dealt with a kid shooting a kid at age 9," he said.

Monroe County is in north-east Mississippi.
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link
 
JessFR said:
...the current system was thought up for a very different world than the one we live in.

Off the top of my head, perhaps it could be replaced by some fork of digital education system that goes more at the students pace and can be better tailored.
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JessFR, I think that's a very interesting solution and that it has a great deal of promise.

The one thing that I would like to also see created and integrated is a face-to-face socialization component. The groups can be small, but I think it's important to have children socialize with children other than their friends. That skill is needed in so many aspects of life, for work and not-work.

It's similar to the "college experience". Many people in high school now will not have it, and I think that's such a shame. (Although overprotected kids who are sheltered and are suddenly free 24/7 in college is not pretty!)

Good segue: it's not just about parents being smart/educated enough to teach their children, it's also about the potentially dysfunctional dynamics between parents and children.

Finally, if college survives in its current form, it will be difficult to compare applicants, except for standardized tests. Unfortunately, the test scores don't predict college performance. GPA does.
 
swilow said:
I would be interested in discussing dissolving schooling for reasons other than potential massacres which seems a little bit like burning your house down because it keeps getting burgled. Or something.

Instead of arming teachers, perhaps the policy of having metal detectors and security should become more general. Until we have a better idea than 'in-patient' schooling, we probably should just try and protect it.
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Well I agree that getting rid of the schools just to stop the shootings is stupid. But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying perhaps we should get rid of them because they are so bad and ineffective at educating people and stopping the shootings is just a bonus. Just to be clear, what I'm suggesting is absolutely not inpatient schooling. The idea is to reduce the cost and institutionalizations while getting better education quality for it. Putting them in school 24/7 as inpatient schooling would likely just make everything a lot worse. What I'm suggesting is as outpatient as you get.

cduggles said:
JessFR, I think that's a very interesting solution and that it has a great deal of promise.

The one thing that I would like to also see created and integrated is a face-to-face socialization component. The groups can be small, but I think it's important to have children socialize with children other than their friends. That skill is needed in so many aspects of life, for work and not-work.

It's similar to the "college experience". Many people in high school now will not have it, and I think that's such a shame. (Although overprotected kids who are sheltered and are suddenly free 24/7 in college is not pretty!)

Good segue: it's not just about parents being smart/educated enough to teach their children, it's also about the potentially dysfunctional dynamics between parents and children.

Finally, if college survives in its current form, it will be difficult to compare applicants, except for standardized tests. Unfortunately, the test scores don't predict college performance. GPA does.
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People often jump to the socialization aspect of schools to justify their existence. I know that's not what you're doing, just saying it's pretty common.

I think the mistake there is they're imagining a nation of home schooling. But perhaps home schooling only tends to be socially isolating because it's the substantial minority. If everyone were "home schooled". Which isn't quite what I'm suggesting. But if everyone were, I would expect kids to still be quite social, but now instead of a few kids at home while any potential friends would be at school, they'd all be at home.

The other issue here is who looks after them, and that's the big reason for the schools. It's not really for educating kids. It's about watching them while parents are at work and trying to throw in an education with the free time.

So, here's what I'd suggest. Perhaps we don't get rid of all conventional schools. Perhaps we just get rid of the high school years. Then they could still be educated together traditionally for the most basic stuff like reading and writing and basic maths. Then instead of going to high school or some of middle school, that's where we put in the digital education system. Then they could still socialize with the friends they made in elementary without a school environment. After about 13 or so I think most kids could look after themselves for those hours. Which is why I say this isn't home schooling. In home schooling the parents basically replicate a conventional school at home. What I'm saying is we should get out of this traditionalist schooling mindsets all together and start from scratch.

I don't have too much of a problem with the earliest years since they seem to be the most functional. Everyone pretty much can read and write and do basic maths. The students there aren't tending to shoot up the place. Not at that age anyway.

So perhaps we just get rid of the later grades.

I'm sure some would ask "how do we make sure they do the work?". To be honest, I find that suggestion a little laughable. Because even if they did nothing for that time I'm not convinced they wouldn't leave knowing about as much as they do already and for a fraction of the cost. Not to mention the mental damage done to some in the current system. But in theory that's still a solvable problem. Ideally I'd like the system to encourage kids to want to learn. Our current methods make learning a chore and many see it that way for the rest of their life.
 
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JessFR said:
Ideally I'd like the system to encourage kids to want to learn. Our current methods make learning a chore and many see it that way for the rest of their life.
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Totally agree with this. Tons of people I know felt that way about school and for some it translated to almost a sort of aversion to the idea of learning, at least earlier in their lives. It seems like a lot of people aren't really learning much at all. I didn't hate it except for the cruelty of children and I thought it was boring a lot of the time. I always just had a sense that I wanted to learn all that stuff, and seek higher education and I also always assumed I'd go to college, but my parents instilled that in me. College was an endpoint I was always looking forward to, so I made sure to do well in school. A lot of people don't have that so I would imagine there is little motivation to care about whether you do well in school, or think it's something you need.
 
So the latest high school shooting was thwarted by an on-campus security officer that engaged the subject, shot and killed him.

Until we work out what's going with these insane school shootings they should have armed security on-site - people that will not be scared to engage a shooter like the coward at Parkland
 
"we're not trying to take your guns"

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^Your point? The articles in question seem to be talking about repealing the second amendment rather than taking your guns. Your fearfulness seems to colour your ability to read.
 
Plausible deniability?
Without the right to bear arms you don't need to own a gun so we'll take it.
 
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