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Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread

In the news today, everyone left class/their parent’s basements to advocate banning assault rifles.

Spoiler: never going to happen.

NRA gave Trump 300 thousand good reasons. At least if SNL’s sketch had any reality behind it.
 
How do you bribe someone who's already super rich?

Captain.Heroin said:
Jess please chill.

We are all friends here.

Sit back and have a whiskey.
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But I don't have any whiskey :(. Living without drugs is so boring. I mean the withdrawals kinda sucked. Kinda really sucked. But God the safety of sober life is dull.
 
teacher shoots student in "gun safety" class
A teacher accidentally discharged a firearm while teaching a public safety class, injuring one student at a Northern California school on Tuesday, police said.
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JessFR said:
Bullshit. There are known examples for other countries.
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JessFR said:
To my knowledge the US has never put an innocent man to death as far as anyone knows. I'd prefer it stay that way.
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i stand by what i said. what other countries do has nothing to do with the US court system.
 
JessFR said:
How do you bribe someone who's already super rich?



But I don't have any whiskey :(. Living without drugs is so boring. I mean the withdrawals kinda sucked. Kinda really sucked. But God the safety of sober life is dull.
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His son in law is in debt to the tune of $800,000,000

Trump won’t bail him out.

Obv wants best for his crush-daughter.
 
But it has plenty to do with what I said. You suggested that I wouldn't accept one even though they exist. I pointed out that there are foreign example I accept and that if there are so many in the US you should be able to give an example.

Instead you gave no example and ignored most of my post and seemingly totally misunderstood the rest.
 
in the u.s. the bar for conviction is not set at 100% or 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'. it's set at 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

there are a fair few cases where people have been executed then, after the fact, new evidence has appeared, or witnesses/jury members change their opinion, cops were found to have planted evidence or fabricated testimony, etc.

here are a couple or three:

it's likely that these executed convicts were, indeed, not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
in the u.s. the bar for conviction is not set at 100% or 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'. it's set at 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

there are a fair few cases where people have been executed then, after the fact, new evidence has appeared, or witnesses/jury members change their opinion, cops were found to have planted evidence or fabricated testimony, etc.

here are a couple or three:

it's likely that these executed convicts were, indeed, not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

alasdair
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Thanks for the examples man.
 
alasdairm said:
in the u.s. the bar for conviction is not set at 100% or 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'. it's set at 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

there are a fair few cases where people have been executed then, after the fact, new evidence has appeared, or witnesses/jury members change their opinion, cops were found to have planted evidence or fabricated testimony, etc.

here are a couple or three:

it's likely that these executed convicts were, indeed, not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

alasdair
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All reasonable points. To be honest I think some people here don't quite follow my reasoning for setting the bar so high. I'm not sure saying it's never happened. On the whole I tend to think it probably has.

But actually knowing and having an absolute case is a powerful symbol. Some countries have abolished the death penalty forever once it was proven that someone was executed when they were innocent. There's a big difference between a maybe and a certainty in that sense.

Id like to believe the US has never wrongly executed someone, even though I know that's likely untrue. Granted, if they wouldn't have been found guilty behind reasonable doubt, that is a wrongful execution. But still not quite as powerful and significant as knowing for sure the person was innocent.

To me, this isn't about saying that the death penalty in the US has never got it wrong. I agree that it almost certainly has. For me, it's about the power of knowing that someone was definitely innocent and were executed.

At least in any other instance you can still have some plausible hope that maybe it hasn't happened yet, however unlikely. That's why I'm interested. It's got nothing to do with the politics of the death penalty. I'm already convinced we should get rid of it so arguing that is preaching to the already converted.

If you wanna argue to me that we shouldn't have the death penalty you're about a decade too late.
 
JessFR said:
All reasonable points. To be honest I think some people here don't quite follow my reasoning for setting the bar so high. I'm not sure saying it's never happened. On the whole I tend to think it probably has.

But actually knowing and having an absolute case is a powerful symbol. Some countries have abolished the death penalty forever once it was proven that someone was executed when they were innocent. There's a big difference between a maybe and a certainty in that sense.

Id like to believe the US has never wrongly executed someone, even though I know that's likely untrue. Granted, if they wouldn't have been found guilty behind reasonable doubt, that is a wrongful execution. But still not quite as powerful and significant as knowing for sure the person was innocent.

To me, this isn't about saying that the death penalty in the US has never got it wrong. I agree that it almost certainly has. For me, it's about the power of knowing that someone was definitely innocent and were executed.

At least in any other instance you can still have some plausible hope that maybe it hasn't happened yet, however unlikely. That's why I'm interested. It's got nothing to do with the politics of the death penalty. I'm already convinced we should get rid of it so arguing that is preaching to the already converted.

If you wanna argue to me that we shouldn't have the death penalty you're about a decade too late.
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I doubt there will ever be any case where any us agency admits that they executed someone wrongly, simply because they will never admit they were wrong. In a country where a police officer can murder a man and be acquitted, this isn't likely.
 
I can't help notice two things. One is that almost all (with one exception I'd be curious to read more about) of these examples are just probability. High probability yes, but not quite a smoking gun.

The other is how many of these examples are from Texas. I mean, of course they would have the most accusations given how much they use the death penalty, but still. It would be them wouldn't it.

Seems pretty damning overall though. Might not know exactly who it was, but chances are very high at least one of them was innocent. Depressing.
 
No, I'm not either. I'm actually a little shocked he's taking it this far. I guess I shouldn't be cause well, it's trump. But this whole armed teachers thing... it's a bit controversial even in the gun lobby. It's generally only the most extreme of the extreme that think it's a good idea.

Id say something like "well why don't make every last person in the country carry a gun if that'll fix everything". But then I remembered that I've heard that seriously argued too..
 
Spacejunk you won't get any argument from me about public health care. I agree with that too. My only issue with public health care is how people use it to excuse controlling other people's safety. No you have to wear a helmet cause otherwise we will have to pay for your health care etc etc.

But suggesting that people should just blindly trust all their fellow citizens never to rob them or mug them or rape or hurt them is just stupid and silly and naive. You know full well that there are people out there who hurt other citizens. Which means people sometimes need to defend themselves.

Now you can argue if the negative side effects of allowing gun ownership outweigh the positives of letting people have a gun for self defense. I don't agree but that's a perfectly sensible thing to discuss and debate. But just saying there's something inherently wrong with wanting to be able to defend yourself because you should just trust your fellow citizens to never pose any threat to you is just stupid.
 
They need to leave the guns alone. Gun control has no direct link to homicide rates. The reason for the 2nd amendment was protection against a tyrannical government, and a tyrannical government now wants to take the guns. If the authorities were able to prevent all these mass shootings, then they would have a solid argument to take the guns "see, we keep you safe, you don't need them". But when 4 cops are waiting outside a school (Parkland) while someone is inside shooting an AR-15 (which is basically the same as a WWII M1 Carbine), then why would US citizens feel safe or comfortable relinquishing their arms to the same authorities?
 
Instead of taking them away, how about just having a register for firearms, a license proving that they are owned by trained responsible people and also kept out of reach of kids etc?


Having to pass a competence test for a firearm and have a license for it doesnt take them away, they are designed to kill so shouldnt they be taken seriously?
 
Ideally we shouldn't be over-prescribing psychotropic drugs, but since that isn't going to change then yes, gun owners should have to pass some type of psyche evaluation. The worry is also that this process will be abused or politicized. However many on the Left seem to be arguing for extreme control and outright seizure, for example banning the AR-15 makes zero sense.

Guns are designed to shoot.
Knives can and do kill a lot of people yet anyone can buy one.
 
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