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Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread

To those of you that don't think changing the regulations around guns will stop these shootings I have a question: what solution would you propose?

It seems to me that mental health gets tossed out a lot as a reason, but so far this country doesn't seem to do much about that either. It almost seems like it's a 'look here! not at guns!' ploy by politicians. And then when we get on the topic of mental health, these same politicians claim that it's too expensive, not the government's job, etc.

Is it just that no one wants to do anything about it? That's a valid opinion to have, but then they should just come out and say it, rather than hiding behind flimsy reasons that they immediately refuse to back.
 
To those of you that don't think changing the regulations around guns will stop these shootings I have a question: what solution would you propose?

It seems to me that mental health gets tossed out a lot as a reason, but so far this country doesn't seem to do much about that either. It almost seems like it's a 'look here! not at guns!' ploy by politicians. And then when we get on the topic of mental health, these same politicians claim that it's too expensive, not the government's job, etc.

Is it just that no one wants to do anything about it? That's a valid opinion to have, but then they should just come out and say it, rather than hiding behind flimsy reasons that they immediately refuse to back.

Gun control doesn't work and penalizes people who follow the law. The criminals will always have guns illegally or otherwise (point in case).

Why would you want to roll back civil rights, anyways? Just because I don't want you to own a gun doesn't mean you shouldn't. Maybe I don't think you should be a homosexual, or have an interracial marriage. You know that's how a lot of the US used to think? But guess what? We got civil rights. It doesn't matter how I or anyone else feel about these things (and I'm 100% OK with homosexuals and interracial marriage); the point is, you get civil rights because it's the right thing.

We're not rolling back civil rights just because the social conservatives hate abortions and gay people, and we're not rolling back gun rights just because liberals hate guns. Sorry guys, that's not how civil rights work. That's not the dream civil rights leaders had in mind.
 
Gun control doesn't work and penalizes people who follow the law. The criminals will always have guns illegally or otherwise (point in case).

Why would you want to roll back civil rights, anyways? Just because I don't want you to own a gun doesn't mean you shouldn't. Maybe I don't think you should be a homosexual, or have an interracial marriage. You know that's how a lot of the US used to think? But guess what? We got civil rights. It doesn't matter how I or anyone else feel about these things (and I'm 100% OK with homosexuals and interracial marriage); the point is, you get civil rights because it's the right thing.

We're not rolling back civil rights just because the social conservatives hate abortions and gay people, and we're not rolling back gun rights just because liberals hate guns. Sorry guys, that's not how civil rights work. That's not the dream civil rights leaders had in mind.

Thanks for the response, but I would appreciate your opinion on the solution. You don't think gun bans work, ok. So then what should we do? Nothing?
 
Thanks for the response, but I would appreciate your opinion on the solution. You don't think gun bans work, ok. So then what should we do? Nothing?

Not to speak for CH, but I don't believe gun bans work either and I'm happy to talk to anyone who listen about what I think will.

No doubt I've said it on this thread before, but these threads just go on a loop anyway and it was a while ago and it might be a bit much to ask people to catch up on 60 pages of this shit.

Ok so, no we shouldn't do nothing. I don't believe gun bans work, because looking into all this its my opinion that either you're safe enough to have any gun or no gun. We need to focus on people, not guns. By that I don't mean we focus on mental health as the usual diversionary tactic the gun lobby throws out. No I suspect my solution will be hated by the gun lobby, because it might well require modifying the 2nd amendment.

We introduce a comprehensive licensing system. That's my solution. Getting the license would be very involved including a background investigation and maybe a mental health evaluation, as well as a basic gun safety course perhaps repeated to a lesser extent every 10 years.

Once you have a license, you can buy whatever you want, and if you complete a required concealed carry defense course, you would be able to add a condition to your license that then allows you to concealed carry.

But, once you have the license, you can buy pretty much any small arm, and there's no registration.

That's my ideal gun control solution, focus on who has them, not what they have.
 
Thanks for the response, but I would appreciate your opinion on the solution. You don't think gun bans work, ok. So then what should we do? Nothing?

The US gov't could get in bed with the gun lobbyists but there's no way they'll both be happy without domestic sales continuing as they have been. I'm not really sure what you want me to say, but doing nothing is probably the best course of action.

Addressing the mental health crisis in the US would be more advisable.
 
paywall article...

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-thousand-oaks-shooting-20181109-story.html

A decade before he stormed a popular Thousand Oaks bar armed with a handgun this week, Ian David Long’s propensity for rage was well known to some of his teachers.

Evie Cluke, a former assistant track & field coach at Newbury Park High School, said the teenage Long was a volatile presence in the locker room and on the school’s grounds, prone to spasms of anger that often led to physical confrontations.

Long sometimes traded punches with rival athletes at track meets, said Cluke, who also once witnessed him assault another female coach at the school. At the end of Long’s sophomore year, she said, he gathered classmates around his new pickup truck and showed off what appeared to be a handgun.

“One of the students came running back and said he was showing them that he had a gun,” Cluke recalled. Standing about 40 yards away, Cluke said, she could see Long holding a small, black object against his chest that resembled a pistol.

By the time she alerted a supervisor, Long had driven off, she said. Confronted later, Long denied having a weapon and none of the students who had been near his truck would talk about it, she said.

When Long explained why he was joining the Marines after graduation, Cluke only became more unnerved. She recalled him telling her: “I want to go and fight for my country and kill for my country.”

“A statement like that sticks in your brain when you know a kid has issues that need to be addressed,” Cluke said.

As police continue to struggle to piece together a motive behind the massacre that left 12 other people dead inside the Borderline Bar & Grill in Thousand Oaks, a troubling portrait of Long continued to emerge.

Those who knew Long before he served in the U.S. Marine Corps said he had proven to be short-tempered and aggressive prior to his military service. Long fought in Afghanistan and some have suggested post-traumatic stress disorder played a role in the shooting, but the allegations from Cluke and others suggest the gunman was prone to violence before joining the armed forces.

Even in his final moments, Long was making disturbing comments. On Friday, two law enforcement sources told The Times that Long was posting on Instagram in the moments before and during the shooting in Thousand Oaks.

In the posts, Long wrote that he hoped people would refer to him as “insane” and openly mocked the “thoughts and prayers” that are frequently offered in public statements and on social media after mass shootings, according to one of the officials.

"We can see it from the time stamps and other evidence as well what he was doing: He would fire shots, then go on the Instagram account," said Ventura County sheriff’s Sgt. Eric Buschow, who was briefed on the social media evidence by investigators.

Long's messages were publicly visible for hours before detectives located his account, alerted Instagram and asked the company to preserve the messages.

Long entered the bar, which was hosting a weekly promotion popular with college students, around 11:20 p.m. Wednesday and began shooting at people near the front door, authorities said.

Within minutes, Sgt. Ron Helus and a California Highway Patrol officer entered the bar and engaged in a firefight with Long, who was armed with a semi-automatic pistol.

Helus was shot several times and died at a hospital hours later. Long was found dead of a gunshot wound in the back of the bar, though it remains unclear if he took his own life or died after being shot by police.

The other 11 victims are Sean Adler, 48; Cody Coffman, 22; Blake Dingman, 21; Jake Dunham, 21; Alaina Housley, 18; Dan Manrique, 33; Justin Meek, 23; Kristina Morisette, 20; Mark Meza Jr., 20; Telemachus Orfanos, 27; and Noel Sparks, 21.

Investigators have searched Long’s home and scoured his online writings, according to Ventura County Sheriff’s Capt. Garo Kuredjian, who warned that finding answers could take time. The crime scene alone could take several days to process, he said.

“If there is a motive, we can perhaps prevent something like this happening in the future,” Kuredjian said. “We owe it to the families that need an answer. We owe it to our sergeant’s family.”

While the investigation is ongoing, law enforcement officials told The Times it did not appear Long had any connection to known foreign or domestic terrorism or hate groups.

People who had lived with or knew Long said the gunman had problems with aggression and may have struggled with mental health issues after his discharge from the Marines in 2013.

Long lived with his mother, and neighbors said the two often engaged in screaming matches. In April, sheriff’s deputies went to the home in response to a disturbing the peace call. A crisis team sent as part of the response decided against detaining Long, though they discussed whether he might have PTSD, authorities said. It was not clear if Long was ever formally diagnosed with a mental health problem.

A representative of the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs said Long was never enrolled in any of the agency’s healthcare or treatment programs.

Area law enforcement officials said they had limited contact with Long outside of the April incident at his mother’s home. Long had also been the victim of a battery at another Ventura County bar several years ago, authorities said.

Miles Weiss, the chief Ventura County deputy district attorney overseeing criminal prosecutions, said his agency had no contact with Long as a witness, victim or suspect.

Cluke, the former high school track coach, said she considered Long to be a “ticking time bomb.” She and another assistant coach, Dominque Colell, recalled how Long attacked Colell during a dispute in 2008. Colell said she was trying to determine if Long owned a cellphone that had been found by another student, and he was shaking with rage.

“He started to grab at me,” she said. “He reached around and with one arm, groped my stomach. He grabbed my butt with the other arm.”

Colell said she reported the incident to school officials, who urged her to drop the issue to avoid jeopardizing Long’s dream of joining the military.

“He was very determined and very angry,” she said. “He was probably the only student that I was actually scared of when I coached there.”

Requests for comment from the Conejo Valley Unified School District were not returned late Thursday. The school’s offices were closed Friday due to the destructive Woolsey fire.

Cluke said she witnessed the attack on Colell, and chose to speak out now because she felt sickened by what her former colleague had endured in attempting to hold Long accountable.

“To be sexually violated and told by your bosses, ‘Get used to it’ ... it’s so wrong,” she said.

The coaches were particularly concerned about how he acted around women and young girls.

“If there was a female that he'd like, he'd say crass things to them. If they rejected him, he had a big issue,” Cluke said. On campus, Cluke said she saw Long “grope girls’ breasts or grab them in the behind.”

Cluke said she told her father, a staff member at the high school, and did her best to monitor Long herself. She felt that other staff members in positions of authority ignored Long’s behavior.

“They chalk it up to being a teenage boy,” she said. “He needed help back then, and nobody even thought to seek any help for him.”

Times staff writer Dakota Smith contributed to this report.

7:10 p.m.: This article was updated with comments from Sgt. Eric Buschow and additional comments from a former teacher.

5 p.m.: This article was updated with comments from another one of Long’s former teachers.

1:40 p.m.: This article was updated with additional details on the social media posts reportedly published by Long and comments from the Ventura County Sheriff’s Department.

This article first published at 12:50 p.m.

In before Winston edits it 50,000 more times today alone.
 
^ you have to slightly loathe the people who want a piece of publicity because they knew someone who kills people. Woodwork effect squared?

I'm trying to think about effective gun control legislation, but it's complicated.

I'm sure Trump has an answer. I'm also sure it's a bad one. :D
 
^ you have to slightly loathe the people who want a piece of publicity because they knew someone who kills people. Woodwork effect squared?

I'm trying to think about effective gun control legislation, but it's complicated.

I'm sure Trump has an answer. I'm also sure it's a bad one. :D

I think the story highlights on the pitfalls of "the system" in dealing with a sort of individual, however, and it appears I was incorrect under all my assumptions if this story is to be taken at face value. Or whatever.
 
To those of you that don't think changing the regulations around guns will stop these shootings I have a question: what solution would you propose?

Self defense training and an armed populace. When there are friendlies with guns roaming around soft targets are eliminated and you don't end up with people bringing guns into no-gun zones and shooting people like they're fish in a barrel. We need to bring back mandatory rifle training for the youth in schools. We need to teach adults how to defend themselves. Remove the unwarranted fear of the tool/gun and teach everyone gun safety at some point while growing up (which used to be common in this society). The running/hiding techniques simply do not work against someone armed with a gun with the desire to kill everyone. Waiting for the police to show up 10 minutes after everyone is already dead also doesn't work.

An armed society is a polite society. These things should be combined with mental health of course but not in the way the laws are currently being written. The mental health system needs to be reformed and it needs to be better staffed. These crazy people are falling through the cracks because the waiting lists are so long and seeking help causes them to automatically be shunned by the rest of society. Remove the stigma from mental health services, make them more affordable (or free) for the poor, help people work through their problems instead of putting them on drugs. Don't punish them for seeking help for the rest of their lives. Don't put them on a months long waiting list. If someone shows up they should be seen the same day whenever possible to get them in the system and started on treatment.

There also needs to be more research done on how SSRIs are driving people to commit these crimes. More often than not SSRIs or similar drugs are being used by these people and there is plenty of research to show they cause these problems in society. They shouldn't be so widely/freely prescribed at the rate they currently are and when this topic is brought up people shouldn't automatically laugh about it because Alex Jones brought it up a couple of times. I personally think SSRIs are the root cause to most of these shootings.
 
^^^ That's essentially what they've been doing with the military and we have all these trained-to-be-psychos coming back from foreign wars ready to slay.
 
Self defense training and an armed populace. When there are friendlies with guns roaming around soft targets are eliminated and you don't end up with people bringing guns into no-gun zones and shooting people like they're fish in a barrel. We need to bring back mandatory rifle training for the youth in schools. We need to teach adults how to defend themselves. Remove the unwarranted fear of the tool/gun and teach everyone gun safety at some point while growing up (which used to be common in this society). The running/hiding techniques simply do not work against someone armed with a gun with the desire to kill everyone. Waiting for the police to show up 10 minutes after everyone is already dead also doesn't work.

Basically that's the Swiss model. But they have compulsory military service and serious background checks for gun licenses and a few other safeguards such as preventing drug addicts and convicted criminals from buying guns.

Switzerland has a stunningly high rate of gun ownership ? here's why it doesn't have mass shootings

HeadphonesandLSD said:
These things should be combined with mental health of course but not in the way the laws are currently being written. The mental health system needs to be reformed and it needs to be better staffed. These crazy people are falling through the cracks because the waiting lists are so long and seeking help causes them to automatically be shunned by the rest of society. Remove the stigma from mental health services, make them more affordable (or free) for the poor, help people work through their problems instead of putting them on drugs. Don't punish them for seeking help for the rest of their lives. Don't put them on a months long waiting list. If someone shows up they should be seen the same day whenever possible to get them in the system and started on treatment.

I agree with this for a number of reasons.

I don't agree that SSRIs are the primary driver for most mass shootings.
 
I can show you a lot of studies that may change your mind about the SSRIs. I encourage you to explore the subject.

Drug addicts and convicted felons are pretty much excluded from gun ownership already if we're talking about legal means. Nothing much can be done about them getting them off the street. Like drugs it's impossible to get them out of circulation or prevent new ones from coming in. I'm not opposed to the Swiss model excluding background checks for rifles/shotguns in private sales. Most stores already run background checks these days anyway. I find most people that do not own guns are not well informed about the current situation around purchasing them. The amount of hoops and paperwork you have to jump through gets very tiring and the so-called "loopholes" can't really be closed without banning private sales between individuals.

To cite an example of how crazy the laws are: Short barrel rifles under 16 inches are banned unless registered with the ATF. However, I can build/buy an AR-15 "pistol" as short as I want as long as it was designed as a "pistol" and doesn't have a traditional buttstock. The "pistol" stock is pretty much a regular stock with a nylon strap that allows you to better steady the gun while holding it with one hand. If I shoulder the "stock" that comes on the rifle it's still legal. If I just happen to own an extra rifle stock and place it on or next to the gun it's illegal. However, since I own a traditional AR-15 carbine I'm allowed to keep rifle stocks next to my "pistol" without it being illegal.

This same situation applies to shotguns. Modifying a shotgun into a "sawed off" by cutting the barrel down below 16 inches is highly illegal unless you register the gun with the ATF and pay for the $200 tax stamp. However, you can purchase a "sawed off" with a pistol grip at any length you desire and it doesn't have to be classified/registered as a pistol. The ATF considers them "Any other weapon/device" and the sale and use is totally legal as long as you don't attach a traditional shoulder stock to it. I'm actually buying one of these soon for home defense.

Similarly, owning a "machine gun" (full auto rifle) isn't allowed unless it's registered with the ATF before 1986. I can custom make a simple part and drop it into any AR-15 I own and make my semi-automatic into a fully automatic rifle. This is outright illegal but: How would you know? It takes 5 seconds to drop it in and remove it. I can always claim the gun went full-auto because of malfunction and since I have my own private land no ATF agent is going to get near me before I'm able to remove that part. If one were to search my home and find it in the gun, or in the same room as the gun, it's a felony. But I've already committed a felony by having drugs for personal use in the same room as any standard rifle and this part costs me nothing to make so tossing it down a drain or into the woods doesn't bother me at all. So, this law is basically useless for stopping anyone from owning a fully automatic gun. The only reason I don't own such a part is because it wastes a lot of ammo and I don't feel like spending $10 every few pulls of the trigger.

Bumpstocks are more or less the same thing. They're a toy and no one uses them seriously. They're also easy to make and aren't even required to bump fire on any standard AR-15 or AK. You can do the same thing with a 2x4 and some nails, shoestrings, belt loops, or even free hand if you're good enough at it. It doesn't allow you to aim well though so again most consider it a toy/gimmick for shits and giggles. Everyone cites the NV shooting for wanting to ban them but everyone fails to mention he had obtained illegally modified guns that could go fully automatic or legally fully autos from before 1986. I can't remember which but he certainly wasn't doing all of that with a bumpstock especially at the ranges he was shooting at that crowd from.

My guns friends don't want me bringing up "bottle openers" and "binary triggers" because they aren't in the spotlight yet and will be the next things they attempt to ban after bumpstocks but I assure you they're well known and common. Binary triggers fire two rounds for every trigger pull (one on pull, one on release) and "bottle openers" are easy to make and install/uninstall. "Bottle openers" are also illegal if they weren't made/registered before 1986 and if you have an old registered one you can fetch upwards to $10,000 for a part any idiot can make from a lawn mower blade. For every ban on an item there are 5 more like this most people don't know about. In fact, the ATF has already declared use of some of these are fully legal. If you ban them you turn millions of people into felons overnight and only serve to help them. Any time there is talk of a ban the value of these items skyrocket and people panic buy them. I sold a bumpstock that I didn't even use for double what I gave for it recently just because people fear them becoming banned.
 
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Nice post, HLSD.

I'm fairly well-versed regarding the difference between rifle vs. pistol, automatic vs. semi-auto, and banning conversion parts like bump stocks arguments. They are in this thread and at other places I post.

Ftr, I'm a gun owner and I favor smart gun control. It's not a simple thing to me, nor do I trust the government to pass smart policies.

The Swiss model is a whole other model to me. It involves compulsory military training (for men), a culture that has a youth shooting competition (boys, and girls since 1991, iirc), much more thorough background checks, and a few other things like not being able to transport loaded weapons and concealed carry permits being difficult to get. And yes there are loopholes (one of the articles I linked has a description in there).

It's an interesting case study of what is different between the two countries as well as a possible system to emulate. Why don't they have mass shootings? It's not as if the Swiss tote loaded guns around all the time, yet they know how to use them. The culture is not as attuned to violence either. Hard to parse out the most important differences.

I just don't think the answer is that smart gun control is impossible. I just don't see an easy path consistent with the Constitution and modern culture.
 
Apologies for assuming you didn't know. This has become a bit of a hobby for me and I'm in the habit of having to explain these things to people that don't know anything about them. I'm an amature gunsmith and like restoring old guns. Compared to some of the folks I shoot with I'm nowhere near a gun nut I just have to know all these laws to make sure I keep everything legal. I live in fear of the day when the laws change and I'm considered a felon just for owning things my family passed down to me. The Government knows about only 2 of my firearms and with the way some of the laws are going I'm pretty scared they're going to come request those two soon and end up finding the other 10 I have in the house.

The flaw in implementing the Swiss model over here is the fact that it conflicts with the second amendment and our (quickly fading) concept of state rights. I am a big advocate of state rights and I think if we got back to a place where the feds didn't have so much say in state affairs this problem would solve itself quickly. If California wants strict gun control that's fine by me and if they want to attempt to go against the 2nd that's fine by me too. The citizens of that state should ultimately decide these issues. I'm also for some type of military training for all men when they come of age. Technically, all men between 18 and 40-something are part of the militia and should receive training. It would also do a lot of good for instilling some much needed discipline into the population and would help a lot of young folks that are lost about what they want to do with their lives. I'd like to see the training go beyond just firearms. It should include various things and teach basic skills. I could see something like computer programming being taught in that environment. I know it's an unpopular opinion these days but I would only want to see this restricted for men. I do not like the idea of women on the front lines for many reasons I won't go into, I'll just leave it at the fact that their presence on the front lines leads to many issues that don't otherwise happen. Another debate for another day.

That aside, we don't really need to take it that far. If we brought back rifle teams in schools, traditional scouting programs, and/or required youth training with firearms it would be great progress. I only initially learned what I knew about firearms because of my Grandfather, Step Father, Father, and the fact that my state required that I took a gun safety course to obtain my first deer hunting license. I learned _a lot_ in that class and I never forgot it. I came out of it with a lot more respect for what a firearm could do if it wasn't handled properly.

As I said before my main issue with the Swiss model is the banning of private sales between individuals. I feel if this was banned it would be a small jump to an outright ban on firearms all together. I don't like the idea of having to do paperwork and reporting to the ATF every time I sell or buy a shotgun from/to a friend. The majority of guns that I have bought have been done in such a manner and it has never been a problem. I actually think the current restrictions are too harsh and pistols should be treated the same as any other gun in a private sale. It varies by state but it my state all pistol sales currently have to be reported to the county if the serial numbers are in their system. It isn't right that they make $15+ on every private sale between people attempting to stay legal when gangbangers peddle pistols that have been used in murders between themselves all day long on the streets.

As for why the cultures are different; I mainly think this is due to culture class between all the different types of people living here, the fact that most Americans are on some type of drug/substance, and the fact that we have so many people here that didn't get a proper upbringing through no faults of their own. These are social issues and I'm not sure how to solve them in our current environment. I do think going back to states rights may help though and eventually people would move to areas they're most comfortable living in. Right now we have an issue with populations that don't care for each other being crammed together. This always leads to violence.

I don't want to see walled up communities everywhere and I don't know how to solve this problem. Without a common culture like the Swiss and a lot of countries have there isn't something to conform to. It isn't a racism/color problem though because I've lived around people from different backgrounds most of my life and we shared a common culture (Southern culture) and looked out for each other. I can't speak for other places in the country but the black/white populations have always gotten along well where I was raised but we all shared a common culture going back for 100+ years in this area. I've experienced an influx of new culture to the area over the later part of my life and it did lead to violence. I'd say about half of those people conformed to the cultural norms and became good neighbors and the other half of them got locked up, killed, or moved away to a city. They still retained their own culture of course but they conformed to local custom to get along with the native populations and after a few years you couldn't even tell they weren't from this area. Their children have just as much as a southern draw and anyone else.

"As in Rome" and all of that. Sorry for the walls of text I type too fast. ;)
 
Gun control doesn't work and penalizes people who follow the law. The criminals will always have guns illegally or otherwise (point in case).

Why would you want to roll back civil rights, anyways? Just because I don't want you to own a gun doesn't mean you shouldn't. Maybe I don't think you should be a homosexual, or have an interracial marriage. You know that's how a lot of the US used to think? But guess what? We got civil rights. It doesn't matter how I or anyone else feel about these things (and I'm 100% OK with homosexuals and interracial marriage); the point is, you get civil rights because it's the right thing.

We're not rolling back civil rights just because the social conservatives hate abortions and gay people, and we're not rolling back gun rights just because liberals hate guns. Sorry guys, that's not how civil rights work. That's not the dream civil rights leaders had in mind.

a lot of people that do serious damage with guns aren't "criminals" that will be connected to the gang-based black market for illegal guns.

adma lanza for example. where the fuck was that nerd going to buy illegal guns if he didn't have an arsenal at his moms house? you think he's going to go see the same guy the crips see to get their illicit guns?


i can see the parallel argument about drugs being illegal doensn't prevent people from doing it. drugs are a bit more addictive than guns. they are highly stigmatized unlike guns, so its normal for an 18 year old good kid to have guns, but not do hard drugs.
 
Apologies for assuming you didn't know.

Not at all. I appreciate your point of view and I'm sure a lot of folks picked something up.

I'm an amature gunsmith and like restoring old guns.
Very cool.

I live in fear of the day when the laws change and I'm considered a felon just for owning things my family passed down to me. The Government knows about only 2 of my firearms and with the way some of the laws are going I'm pretty scared they're going to come request those two soon and end up finding the other 10 I have in the house.

I understand that completely! I don't think the laws will be that intrusive tho. Just the taxes and fees and such ;).

The flaw in implementing the Swiss model over here is the fact that it conflicts with the second amendment and our (quickly fading) concept of state rights. I am a big advocate of state rights and I think if we got back to a place where the feds didn't have so much say in state affairs this problem would solve itself quickly. If California wants strict gun control that's fine by me and if they want to attempt to go against the 2nd that's fine by me too. The citizens of that state should ultimately decide these issues.

I agree, but the Constitution is the basis for our entire judicial system as well, so I see interpretation of the 2nd as a federal issue. I see where you're coming from, tho. Tbc, I don't think private citizens should be prevented from owning guns.

I'm also for some type of military training for all men when they come of age. Technically, all men between 18 and 40-something are part of the militia and should receive training. It would also do a lot of good for instilling some much needed discipline into the population and would help a lot of young folks that are lost about what they want to do with their lives. I'd like to see the training go beyond just firearms. It should include various things and teach basic skills. I could see something like computer programming being taught in that environment. I know it's an unpopular opinion these days but I would only want to see this restricted for men. I do not like the idea of women on the front lines for many reasons I won't go into, I'll just leave it at the fact that their presence on the front lines leads to many issues that don't otherwise happen. Another debate for another day.

Agreed military and other life skills could be taught.

Could women do the training, in your view? What about noncombat roles?

(I disagree on the last point, but I would like the effects on troop readiness studied.)

That aside, we don't really need to take it that far. If we brought back rifle teams in schools, traditional scouting programs, and/or required youth training with firearms it would be great progress. I only initially learned what I knew about firearms because of my Grandfather, Step Father, Father, and the fact that my state required that I took a gun safety course to obtain my first deer hunting license. I learned _a lot_ in that class and I never forgot it. I came out of it with a lot more respect for what a firearm could do if it wasn't handled properly.

I learned from my father and friends.

I've lived around people from different backgrounds most of my life and we shared a common culture (Southern culture) and looked out for each other.

Me too. Born, bred and fled. I still love certain things about the South (and now I'm hungry), some I don't miss at all. You know... it's complicated.

I'm genuinely hungry now :) ...I'll try to touch on your points about Switzerland later.
 
Really interesting posts, Headphones. :) Got me thinking...

There also needs to be more research done on how SSRIs are driving people to commit these crimes. More often than not SSRIs or similar drugs are being used by these people and there is plenty of research to show they cause these problems in society. They shouldn't be so widely/freely prescribed at the rate they currently are and when this topic is brought up people shouldn't automatically laugh about it because Alex Jones brought it up a couple of times. I personally think SSRIs are the root cause to most of these shootings.

I can't say whether or not SSRIs are a big factor, but I wouldn't be surprised. My ex's cousin, when she was 16, got put on Zoloft, she was getting into drugs and her parents assumed it must be because she was depressed and the psychiatrist and her parents basically forced her onto it. Within a few months, she became crushingly depressed and her personality changed substantially, and she started to become obsessed with the idea of killing her family and herself. Fortunately she had the presence of mind to tell her parents she wanted off Zoloft and why, and fortunately they took her seriously. Once she got off of it, she went back to normal. This was before they started adding the disclaimer that "they may cause suicidal or homicidal ideation in children, teens and young adults" that they use now.

I do think the gross overuse of prescription mood-altering drugs in our society has a variety of insidiously negative repercussions, and could very well be a main underlying factor in why we have mass shootings, especially school shootings.
 
a lot of people that do serious damage with guns aren't "criminals" that will be connected to the gang-based black market for illegal guns.

Does this matter? If you do a mass shooting, that makes you a criminal... would it really matter how you got the guns?

We need to address the mental health crisis in America.

"They're not real criminals" is the worst liberal argument I've heard in favor of gun control. There's got to be better ways you all could advocate for gun control and maybe convince me. Or maybe not.
 
Does this matter? If you do a mass shooting, that makes you a criminal... would it really matter how you got the guns?

We need to address the mental health crisis in America.

"They're not real criminals" is the worst liberal argument I've heard in favor of gun control. There's got to be better ways you all could advocate for gun control and maybe convince me. Or maybe not.

you wouldn't have the means to aquire an illegal gun to commit your mass shooting if they were highly regulated or illegal.


I don't think making guns illegal would prevent gangs and cartels from having them. those criminals will always have them.

they will prevent the guy that's been on meth for 7 days without sleep firing his gun into the night because he sees people out there. - true story i've read on bL

it is perfectly legal to buy high powered guns if you r are mentally ill, an unstable drug user that hasn't been convicted, a person of low intelligence or temperance - none of these people should have access to guns like they do right now - maybe you can convince me why you think they should have them
 
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