Mass sexual assaults on New Year's Eve

[spacejunk]

Would it not bother you if people kept intimating that you were a closet Nazi, skinhead or otherwise?

Well, i'm not a closet nazi and don't really do anything to give people that impression. So i can't really relate - but i have had all manner of "get a job, lefty scum" remarks aimed at me - and i happily respond "i've got one".

Stereotypes are something we all get lumped with sometimes - the difference is, i choose to be politically engaged and outspoken.
Refugees - on the other hand - don't choose to be in the positions they are in.
People don't flee for their lives with only the clothes on their backs, and risk their lives in dangerous journeys because they are greedy and want to live somewhere more prosperous.
That makes no sense.
And as for the repeated insinuation that muslim men are more sexually violent - it's another lazy stereotype.
Maybe when domestic violence and rape disappears in non-muslim populations, we will be in a position to take the moral high ground.
Given that it hasn't - and it won't (despite the many successes of various schools of feminist thought and activism) it is just more highly dubious, shaky ground to be basing your arguments on.

Do we have some work to do, to stop the things that happened on new years eve happening again?
Of course we do.
Do new migrants need to be informed and educated as to the obligation of mutual respect as expected (socially and legally) of men regarding women and their right to feel secure in public places?
If the truth of this matter - as reported - is halfway accurate, then it would seem so.

But let us not completely lose track of the bigger picture in regards to the issue at hand.
Exploiting this incident/incidents to push a radical agenda does not do justice to the complexities of the discussion - it merely simplifies debate into inaccurate dualisms that have little to no basis in reality.

As for skinheads - i have friends that identify with that subculture, but not the National Front 1970s/80s fascist bastardisation of skinhead culture.
The skins i know are best identified as left wing anarchists, and tend towards the SHARP (skinheads against racial prejudice) side of things.
To these people, the whole "neo-nazi skinhead" idea is ridiculous, because the origins of that culture are so inseparable from the West Indian migrants of the 1960s onwards - in terms of fashion, and especially music - that informed them and gave rise to such a cultural hybrid.
Jamaican migrants were viewed with great suspicion by a lot of Brits in the 1960s, and as the two cultures meshed together, all kinds of interesting multicultural hybrids developed.

Were it not for the bluebeat/rocksteady/dancehall/ska/dub/reggae - western music, and the cultures that have grown around it would look very different.
Without "dub" there would likely be no "jungle" - just as there would be no "rave" culture without Chicago house music.
Without "rave culture" there would be no bluelight, and we would not be having this discussion.

These things might exist, in one way or another - but certainly not as they currently do - if we all lived in segregated, blindfolded, mono-cultural world communities.

Inspiring things happen when cultures interact in a positive way, and we (as a society) drop the hostility and open up enough to see what we can learn and appreciate from other cultures.

Each wave of post-world war migration into countries like the UK (or australia, or any other western nation) has had cultural resistance from locals who are suspicious of the unfamiliar - or whatever their hang-up may be - but over time, cultures adapt, blend, cross-pollenate.
What would Britain be like today without the cultural influence of migrant and other cultural influences?
Unrecognisable, i should think.
This is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg; Islamic culture and knowledge shaped has already lot of influence on Western culture, before modern times.
This idea that Muslim people are...what word did zzz101 use? Ah yes - savages - is deeply ironic and absurd.

And this idea that anglo men are somehow more respectful of women, and of human life?

Any female can churn out a new unit with 9 months and a meat injection.

Sure, that's a very convincing argument.

 

[Bagseed]

People don't flee for their lives with only the clothes on their backs, and risk their lives in dangerous journeys because they are greedy and want to live somewhere more prosperous.

by the way, one thing I wonder a lot about, is how exactly people can think it's wrong that other people want to improve their lives? I mean, if I grew up in a shithole in central africa, being confronted with conflict and war all my life, seeing children on the streets sniffing glue, having no real prospect to escape poverty, I'd definately want to gtfo of there.

It seems that most westerners believe they are entitled to their wealth while people from poor nations are apparantly not. in that way I believe prohibiting immigration is inherently wrong, of course disregarding the fact that going from the status quo to completely open borders would be problematic, for society and economy. so I hope this is something which might be a reality in the future. no nationalism, no major inequality and every human on the planet is free to live the life they want.

I hope that somebody, who is pro borders and nationalism can explain their point of view regarding this with logical arguments

 

[zombywoof]

anyone seen this yet
Charlie Hebdo cartoon depicting drowned child Alan Kurdi sparks racism debate

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...rdi-sparks-racism-debate/ar-BBobcED?li=AA59G2

 

[spacejunk]

^ that's in very bad taste - the cheap, tawdry kind of bad taste - not the witty, challenging, self-aware kind.
I tend to agree with the comment in the article that says this sort of racism hides behind the concept of freedom of speech in order to make crass, divisive comment.
Given the history, this is simply incitement.

 

[zombywoof]

yes one of the comments said it all

There is No reason that could possible excuse such disgusting and Vile comments with regard to a Dead Child !

 

[spacejunk]

Yeah, i agree.

 

[-=SS=-]

Well, i'm not a closet nazi and don't really do anything to give people that impression. So i can't really relate - but i have had all manner of "get a job, lefty scum" remarks aimed at me - and i happily respond "i've got one".

Neither am I a closet Nazi, and I don't give people that impression.. not once have I said anything closely resembling Nazi ideology or showed affinity with it. People just keep projecting on to my posts what they believe they see, it fits a nice little narrative in their heads. Being told to get a job or being a hippy is far away from being called a Nazi.. being feckless is an order of magnitude away from being associated with a brutal 20th century war beast.

Do we have some work to do, to stop the things that happened on new years eve happening again? Of course we do. Do new migrants need to be informed and educated as to the obligation of mutual respect as expected (socially and legally) of men regarding women and their right to feel secure in public places? If the truth of this matter - as reported - is halfway accurate, then it would seem so.

Is that it? You think 'education' is going to work with these people? You can't just educate someone out of a culture unless they are willing to be participants to that process because the process of enculturation has neurological roots, and you can't uproot that kind of programming by just barking words at a person. It requires action and definite response. I think you're being pretty naive if you actually think you can educate these adults into a different way of being, it's not that simple. These men were fearless, they simply did not give a fuck about respecting the law. Without that foundation of respect for the law you'll be pissing into the wind trying to educate them. Not going to happen.

Inspiring things happen when cultures interact in a positive way, and we (as a society) drop the hostility and open up enough to see what we can learn and appreciate from other cultures.

This is sophistry and platitudes, not a solid argument for trying to mesh two cultures into the same space. I maintain that for every event of "niceness" you'll get 10 that are negative just from social friction alone. That is not a cost I am willing to pay.

Why do you feel compelled to want this? I always get the impression that you believe it will work no matter what, that there can be no major problems with this process. Where is it written that this has to be like this? The repeated attempts to try and push this whole thing under the rug is not going to work because the reality is the majority actually DO have deep seated fear about this whole process and to say those fears are ungrounded or irrational is a big mistake. Silly little words like "Islamophobia" just betray this arrogance of PC culture that thinks it can simply force a new way on to society. It is not congruent with actual reality.

 

[zombywoof]

I think peoples fears are also fueled by all the hate as well and everywhere i look i see it gathering momentum i really hope history doesn't repeat itself again as it has a nasty habit of doing.

 

[spacejunk]

SS, i've known a lot of refugees.
Syrians, Afghans, Tamils, Iraqis - people from all over the globe.
Each one of these people has made me realise how lucky i am to be able to take my security and freedom for granted. Their stories are often horrifying. Yet they are inspiring.
I can't think of a refugee person I have known that i havent like and respected.
I'm not naive, thank you very much.

On the other hand, i've not met anyone that is vocally anti-refugee, with all that secure the borders, stop the boats rhetoric that i have any respect for whatsoever.
In my experience, they are insecure, arrogant, ignorant - and usually have had little interaction with the people they frequently demonise.
Granted, this is just my experience.
I try not to mix with these people. I'm discerning about the company i keep.

 

[zombywoof]

The road is long
With many a winding turns
That leads us to who knows where
Who knows where

But I'm strong
Strong enough to carry him
He ain't heavy, he's my brother

So on we go
His welfare is of my concern
No burden is he to bear
We'll get there

For I know
He would not encumber me
He ain't heavy, he's my brother

If I'm laden at all
I'm laden with sadness
That everyone's heart
Isn't filled with the gladness
Of love for one another

It's a long, long road
From which there is no return
While we're on the way to there
Why not share

And the load
Doesn't weigh me down at all
He ain't heavy he's my brother

He's my brother
He ain't heavy, he's my brother
He ain't heavy, he's my brother



can't say it any better

 

[-=SS=-]

I think peoples fears are also fueled by all the hate as well and everywhere i look i see it gathering momentum i really hope history doesn't repeat itself again as it has a nasty habit of doing.

Aside from the minority of genuine haters, the majority (and I include myself here) do not hate these people. If anything bad happens in the future, history repeating as you say, it will be because of the failure of the left, liberal minded people and the politicians with an agenda who failed to recognize the warnings and dangers posed by this process. Vigilante groups in Cologne were a natural response to the attacks, because when the government fails to put its own peoples interests first then inevitably the people will take back power and impose it how they see fit. I'd rather have an ordered and lawful society, not one with vigilante groups, or worse, but you can not suppress and pretend there isn't a problem when there clearly is one! You can't fight natural law here, regardless of how lofty your ideals are.

Discontent will turn to anger, anger to hate. This could have all been avoided so easily in the first place by recognizing a few basic realities. Most people do not hate these people, migrant or refugee. I don't begrudge a migrant for wanting to better his position, but the failure is thinking we have to accommodate that person.. we don't, we have a choice. You don't allow every beggar into your home because it puts your family at risk and also inevitably they will bleed you dry. You have to exercise some caution and restraint, and honor your lot first. That is not cold or hateful, that is just dealing with exigent realities. That is life. We can't save everyone, no matter how much we would like to.

 

[zombywoof]

but i would rather die trying than become what may be


though that is easy for me to say having had a decent innings already

 

[tokezu]

I don't begrudge a migrant for wanting to better his position, but the failure is thinking we have to accommodate that person.. we don't, we have a choice.

As I have asked above, are you generally opposed to the concept of asylum? Because the idea behind that concept is exactly that we should take people in regardless of how useful they are to us (while of course the overall number can be limited).

 

[jjones0207]

Islamiphobia is very real. At one time they thought freeing the slaves would causes similar problems when the migration to northernly states happened. In reality this country was built on the backs on immigrants at every stage of history & would not have been possible otherwise. From the Blacks & Irish to the ppl of Mexican descent today.

I dont object to proper screening procedures for refugees, but assuming any qualities of their character based off race, religion, nationality or geographic location is discrimination no matter how you want to put it. Its 2016 ppl get real.

People who perpetuate racism/discrimination should be put on the minority side & see how much it affects your quality of life. From your relationships with others to determining where you live. You can be the most hard working person but without the opportunity to work & be rewarded for ur work so you can make $; your no better than the poor man in Thailand with no assets or job.

Humble yourself my fellow junkies & ex-junkies.

 

[-=SS=-]

As I have asked above, are you generally opposed to the concept of asylum? Because the idea behind that concept is exactly that we should take people in regardless of how useful they are to us (while of course the overall number can be limited).

No I'm not opposed to the concept, but there has to be proper screening regardless of the situation. In this case it is more than needed as these people are coming from a war zone where ISIS have said they will use the migrant wave to send over fighters. There also has to be consideration of numbers. You can't have hundreds of thousands people coming into a nation in such a short space of time, that is a recipe for disaster. Neither of these two considerations have been taken into account in this case.

Islamiphobia is very real.

Nope. A phobia is an irrational fear. This is quite justified. Not even in the same league as the examples you gave.

 

[zzz101]

French Jews' fears 'intolerable' - Francois Hollande

"Jewish leader in the city urged men to stop wearing their skullcaps or other religious symbols."


^the Jews aren't afraid of wimp-skinheads. take a guess who jews are wary of and why they're fleeing

 

[swilow]

I'm proud of what our country has accomplished and where we are today. Our landscape, our cultural heritage, the fact we were instrumental in giving rise to a relatively stable form of societal order and system of law. It's not perfect but it has allowed great freedom for the individual to arise and has also given birth to great innovation which has benefited the entire planet and not just us.

All those things are intangible hyperbole. Why are you proud of it? It's false pride because you contributed nothing to making Britain what it is. You've really nothing to be personally proud of. If you wish to be proud of your country for the positive things it has achieved, I hope you take responsibility for the global blood bath that the British empire perpetrated also.

Being proud of your country and seeing the value it has, and the potential for what it can give and why there is a need to protect that potential is not something you should try to lessen with the terms of abstraction and imaginary value.

I'm pointing out reality. I agree that such thinking does lessen the value of culture. Exactly my point SS. I'm not trying to do this, it is a fact. Culture is imaginary.

Borders and defined space may be imaginary but they are essential to security and prosperity.

Are they really? Perhaps they they are not essential. Perhaps the creation of such abritrary regional distinctions is the cause of decreased security and prosperity.

Without them you would not have a house and space you can call your own, be safe from being raped or murdered, or eaten by wild animals or whatever. Our relationship to the land is one of the oldest forms of religion there is and it will always be important so long as we are mortal and flesh.

Right wing rhetoric there. You have no proof that the creation of borders and nations has protected anyone, you just cannot see an alternative.

Something imaginary that has no fixed reality seems like a pointless thing to value over the reality of a human life.

Human life is not more valuable than culture. Any female can churn out a new unit with 9 months and a meat injection. We have more than enough as it is. Culture takes many, many generations to evolve and to get to the point where we are now has taken the better part of a thousand years.

Culture is determined by humans. Try watching a TV show without a TV set, see how far you get. You might value culture over humans but I've explained why that is ignorant and illogical. Culture is the currency unit of humans. Without humans, culture does not even have an imaginary basis.

If you are proud of your country in the way you claim, can't you understand why people want to get there? If your culture is so admirable and important, can it not handle the input of some components from different cultures? If you don't believe your nation is strong enough to accomadate others, what are you so proud of?

 

[-=SS=-]

Right wing rhetoric there. You have no proof that the creation of borders and nations has protected anyone, you just cannot see an alternative.

Not even going to bother replying to the rest of your post after this nonsense. Ever heard of the great wall of China?

And what alternative? In the real world you have murderers, rapists, opportunists who don't give a flying fuck about your morality, ethics or any hippy bullshit. Without borders and boundaries you have to spend your time trying to ward off advances from competing interests who see what you have and are willing to try and take it from you.

 

[spacejunk]

^ i like when you resort to frothing insults, SS.
It's like your concession that you have nothing to say in response to a series of intelligent posts, but with characteristically less grace.

Murderers, rapists...like those of the British Empire?
Hypocrisy, and nothing more.

 

[-=SS=-]

^ i like when you resort to frothing insults, SS.
It's like your concession that you have nothing to say in response to a series of intelligent posts, but with characteristically less grace.

Murderers, rapists...like those of the British Empire?
Hypocrisy, and nothing more.

Haha frothing insult.. what are you like mate. You (willow) can't come out with some assertion about being "right wing" whens its backed up by such a baseless statement. You can see the great wall from space for crying out loud.. and you're telling me that borders don't work. Ha!

I never said we didn't engage in brutality, actually my position is that its a human quality and not an isolated phenomena. When you accept that as a reality then you make judgement calls based around that reality. You can't pretend that shit doesn't happen, because it does.