Market H vs Pure

[Jay5707]

What is the difference between market grade heroin and Pure lion stamp?

 

[catchthedragon]

Sounds like a BS marketing scam to me. Maybe Fent.

 

[JessFR]

Sounds like a BS marketing scam to me. Maybe Fent.

Yea no. In the US sure. Here in Australia? No. (to clarify, I mean no as in it's unlikely fent)

The difference is the market heroin has been cut a lot more. That's it. It'll be less strong (and as such will be cheaper) because it's been bulked up with cut.

Lion stamp is just a "brand" of heroin common in australia, it's a generally solid white #4 heroin that dissolves easily at room temperature without acid or heat. Usually it comes either as a rock or rocky power.

It's essentially the same white rock heroin you find all over the place in Australia and have for years.

There's other heroins around, including a #3 that's shown up in recent years, I'm not aware of any of them being secretly cut with fentanyl here yet. That's fortunately still not a major problem in Australian heroin. At least not that I've experienced.

 

[dalpat077]

Odd that this should come up today i.e. was down this rabbit hole just yesterday.

Not sure if this actually means anything but the below taken from something I read just yesterday:

"Oddly, for a shadowy commerce, the one-kilo bricks are brightly packaged and imprinted with brands worthy of Madison Avenue. Heroin originating in Burma's Shan State, for example, sports a red-lettered logo, "Double UO Globe Brand", framed by a pair of lions."

 

[JessFR]

Odd that this should come up today i.e. was down this rabbit hole just yesterday.

Not sure if this actually means anything but the below taken from something I read just yesterday:

"Oddly, for a shadowy commerce, the one-kilo bricks are brightly packaged and imprinted with brands worthy of Madison Avenue. Heroin originating in Burma's Shan State, for example, sports a red-lettered logo, "Double UO Globe Brand", framed by a pair of lions."

Yeah that's the one we're talking about.

I wanna add that regardless of any claims of a heroin being "pure", I highly doubt that it is, just less cut than something claimed to be "market grade".

True uncut heroin is crazy strong.

Catchthedragon is right that this is all dealer bullshit. I just don't think it's likely to have any fent in it. Fent has occasionally been detected in Australia but I've yet to hear of someone getting fentanyl when they were sold heroin.

 

[Coffeeshroom]

Yeah i have had pure H from a lab from a university and that stuff knocked me out, thought i was od'ing and that was just taking a 1/3 of a dose then the dose of the street stuff i get

 

[JessFR]

Actually I just did some research. It appears fentanyl has been showing up with greater frequency in Australia, but it still seems relatively uncommon. And when it has shown up its usually been an adulterant in stimulants.

Soo, I still think it's fairly unlikely you'll find fentanyl in most heroin in Australia today.

 

[dalpat077]

Forgive my lack of knowledge on this but after doing some research on this shit something sort of hit me.

The purity levels of this stuff can vary GREATLY. So how does a user know if they're getting 10% or 90%? It's obviously an important factor as, from what I gather, this shit is WAY less forgiving than, say, Cocaine for example.

Interestingly enough (this just a side note and according the DEA): purity levels on the street actually rose at some point some years back for the oddest of reasons i.e. to make it more appealing to a greater user base and to give it more bang for those that would only snort the stuff (those not willing to IV). Fact or fiction?

 

[JessFR]

Forgive my lack of knowledge on this but after doing some research on this shit something sort of hit me.

The purity levels of this stuff can vary GREATLY. So how does a user know if they're getting 10% or 90%? It's obviously an important factor as, from what I gather, this shit is WAY less forgiving than, say, Cocaine for example.

Interestingly enough (this just a side note and according the DEA): purity levels on the street actually rose at some point some years back for the oddest of reasons i.e. to make it more appealing to a greater user base and to give it more bang for those that would only snort the stuff (those not willing to IV). Fact or fiction?

Was this just general research or from an Australian perspective?

In my experience, in Australia, the purity level can vary, but it doesn't seem like it varies enormously, this is just subjective experience though.

Here's the thing... If heroin really did just jump around from 10% to 90% and back without warning, yes that'd almost certainly be a major problem, it seems impossible to believe otherwise.

But in practice, and again this is just my personal experience (though i strongly suspect this is the case most other places), heroin purity tends to be pretty strongly related to the cost. And in reality doesn't jump all over the place.

And more importantly, while purity does indeed vary, it's more like it jumps around within a 20%ish range very occasionally not an 80% range all the time.

I have never, not once, ever, had a shot that felt even so much as triple as good as another similarly priced shot, even with noticeably different heroin.

When you first start using, either from naive or from a period of sobriety, that's the danger period, because it's at that point when a sudden jump in purity can be quite risky. Also it's just very easy not to correctly judge how much you need.

Once you have a decent tolerance... In practice, there's gonna be a general purity level where you live, or at least there always has been where l
I've lived. Maybe a couple heroins that have a roughly relative pricing by perceived quality. You've just not gonna get someone selling you heroin they could be selling for 9 times the price if only they knew they could. In my experience it doesn't happen.

Quality fluctuates but not nearly to that kinda degree. And once you have a tolerance, not to a degree likely to be dangerous. I'll be honest I rarely tested heroin with a small shot first. Sometimes but that was more to check my tolerance when it might have dropped than the heroins strength.

I kinda throw this in with those bs concerns non heroin users repeat, like dealers cutting with rat poison or some shit. Something that might happen on extremely rare occasions but is by no means common. There are risks but in my experience this isn't one of them very often. At least not in Australia.

 

[dalpat077]

It was a general note or comment made in a 2015 DEA paper is all and obviously was USA centric I guess.

Will cut and paste tomorrow.

But thanks for this.

 

[JessFR]

It was a general note or comment made in a 2015 DEA paper is all and obviously was USA centric I guess.

Will cut and paste tomorrow.

But thanks for this.

No probs. It wouldn't surprise me if they were saying there was say, a 9 fold difference between purity by volume of all the heroins they'd seized (or rather that local law enforcement had seized and reported to them) that is certainly plausible because somewhere, sometimes some asshole is gonna try and sell massively cut down shit at waaay too high a price. But it'll probably be the exception.

I would still expect 99% of seized individual samples by law enforcement to be within a more sensible range.

Like even if you do sell shit that's cut down 9 fold for too much, it won't be long before customers realize that's not what it's worth and go elsewhere. In my experience there's usually gonna be a going rate for a going perceived strength.

And why would I by x amount from dealer a when I could buy the same amount from dealer b and have it be waay better? Everyone else will think the same, and dealer a will either stop or go out of business, equalizing the market at dealer b's rate assuming it's true value for the region.

For the record, since it's thankfully still fairly rare here I'm not sure how fentanyl changes this equation but it seems obvious that is massively increases the risk.

And that's backed not just by federal law enforcement but also reputable sources like random bluelighters :D .

 

[catchthedragon]

Yeah. been doing it on the street for nearly 50 years and the strongest I have ever come across was going way way back in the "Mr. Asia" days. And that was about 25 to %30. People would rip your arms off to get at it. LOL. Got really good again when the North Koreans got into it in the 90s, I think. [See the "Pong Su", and that was hardly the first shipment] These days I think we are lucky to get 15 to %20. I hope the fent never really gets going here. Although there have been a few batches lately that have made me wonder.

 

[JessFR]

Yeah. been doing it on the street for nearly 50 years and the strongest I have ever come across was going way way back in the "Mr. Asia" days. And that was about 25 to %30. People would rip your arms off to get at it. LOL. Got really good again when the North Koreans got into it in the 90s, I think. These days I think we are lucky to get 15 to %20. I hope the fent never really gets going here. Although there have ben a few batches lately that have made me wonder.

Interesting. I can't attest from anything like that far back, I'm just not old enough.

When I did some research yesterday I saw a study that had tested a pile of people to see if anyone was coming back positive for fentanyl in spite of not reporting using it.

A few did, but not many, and most of those were with meth or maybe cocaine rather than heroin. Go figure.

Like you, I'd hate for fentanyl to infiltrate the Australian market, but historically there's every reason to think it'll happen eventually.

It's funny, I'm trying to stay away from heroin anyway, but I still hate the idea because I like knowing that heroins there for me to go back to. It's comforting.

 

[dalpat077]

Good morning.

It was a general note or comment made in a 2015 DEA paper is all and obviously was USA centric I guess.

I stand corrected (sorry: was a bit late last night). The general note or comment referenced was from the same PBS article mentioned previously and not from the DEA intelligence paper to which I was referring.

"Not many years ago virtually all the heroin sold on America's streets was so heavily diluted that it was rarely more than 10 percent pure. Purity has risen sharply in the mid-'90's - routinely hitting 50 to 60 percent - as dealers have tried to expand their market beyond those addicts who inject heroin into their veins with hypodermic needles. Higher purity means "you can inhale it, you can smoke it, you can get high without the threat of AIDS or those nasty intravenous needles." says DEA administrator Thomas Constantine, in a recent Washington Post story."

The above being said: I'm about to go through the DEA's 2020 Drug Threat Assessment Report. But from a cursory read this morning of the posts made on the thread immediately after my posting a link to the same it sure looks like the Fentanyl issue is growing and for purely economic reasons. As to how or why this isn't affecting Australia (yet) I know not. Hazarding a guess I'd say it's simply due to proximity i.e. distance from Mexico. But that doesn't make too much sense given that from the little I've seen this morning Fentanyl is cheaply produced in China and sourced from there (and if not Fentanyl then the precursors). But I'm making too many assumptions here without having studied the report so take this all with a pinch of salt unless otherwise informed!

 

[dalpat077]

It's funny, I'm trying to stay away from heroin anyway, but I still hate the idea because I like knowing that heroins there for me to go back to. It's comforting.

Funny you should mentioned this. I hear you. I become apoplectic every time I hear of a huge Cocaine bust somewhere. And that after decades of abstinence (and no: contrary to popular belief none of it is mine). I think once you've visited the dark side and found your DOC there's no going back. Only thing that changes over the years is your knowledge, maturity, responsibility, strength, and resolve.

 

[dalpat077]

Also it's just very easy not to correctly judge how much you need.

Not quoting your entire post on this (although nice post and thanks for the info.).

I just figured there was a more, let's called it scientific, way of knowing what you've got.

As I've noted: never been on my radar so no expert. But I can just imagine somebody who is used to buying low purity off of the street and then one fine day happens to be supplied extremely high purity but at the same price, goes through their usual ritual, and gets knocked for a six? In my rudimentary understanding: this unlike a stimulant. With a stimulant you're awake and will know that you've stepped over a line and have the chance to do something about it. But on this and once you've nodded off: there's not much you can do for yourself?

 

[Coffeeshroom]

i can add that i know that the H I get is anything from 50-60% putirty as i have had it tested a few times and always the results was in that %, but at the sme time i was shocked at the chemicals they used to cut or bulk up the supply that came up from the lab test.

 

[JessFR]

Not quoting your entire post on this (although nice post and thanks for the info.).

I just figured there was a more, let's called it scientific, way of knowing what you've got.

As I've noted: never been on my radar so no expert. But I can just imagine somebody who is used to buying low purity off of the street and then one fine day happens to be supplied extremely high purity but at the same price, goes through their usual ritual, and gets knocked for a six? In my rudimentary understanding: this unlike a stimulant. With a stimulant you're awake and will know that you've stepped over a line and have the chance to do something about it. But on this and once you've nodded off: there's not much you can do for yourself?

It's possible I suppose but as I've said in practice I haven't seen this happen.

I've never seen heroin in my area vary by that much that inconsistently. As has been said sometimes the entire market shifts its norm, but that's something that usually only happens once every decade or so.

Other than that, I just don't think it happens very often. Even when I've come across heroin being sold for more or less specifically because it's stronger or weaker, it's maybe 50% more or less strong than usual. Not 900%. And that's well within a range that would be unlikely to kill anyone.

What dealer is gonna sell their heroin even half, let alone 9 times cheaper than they could be?

I can keep speculating on why I think that's the case but the bottom line is I haven't seen it happen as a real phenomenon the way the media implies. At least pre-fentanyl and in markets still generally untouched by fentanyl.

i can add that i know that the H I get is anything from 50-60% putirty as i have had it tested a few times and always the results was in that %, but at the sme time i was shocked at the chemicals they used to cut or bulk up the supply that came up from the lab test.

Examples?

 

[Coffeeshroom]

Examples?

Like the cutting agents?

 

[JessFR]

Like the cutting agents?

Yeah.