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Mark of the beast :Agnostic's take

Bucklecroft Rudy

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As implied by the title im an agnostic so this is a fire and brimstone free zone. Christian/Judaic prophecy is more than just a product of pure religious thinking. Christian prophets posessed an acuity of insight which is stunning and still to this day it has woven itself into the "collective conciousness" so that 666 is immediately recognisable as a symbol. While I am aware that christian prophecy is not infallible and has been proven to be "off" sometimes (perhaps debatable but meh beyond the scope etc) some prophecies are incredibly uncanny and the apocalyptic ones especially so when put into today's context
Bit in bold is the only essential reading lol

Mark of the beast is a christian apocalyptic prophecy. Bible predicts that in the "end times" a politico-spiritual figure/organisation called the beast will force all men to receive a mark in the hand and forehead without which any commercial trade will be impossible. This is it in essence, the mark being the infamous 666.

Ive heard many half cock theories about what this mark may be. The most convincing is the transhumanist/singularity school of thought which basically suggests that once human-computer interface progresses to a certain point we will all be forced to interface with a central intelligent computer (the beast) in order to function in society. Its plausible since the transhumanist/singularity scientific school is very well respected with oxford/MIT/Cambridge professors endorsing the idea that computers will one day become intelligent - the singularity. With a bit of jiggery pokery it isnt difficult to make the pieces fit with ease.

However im not convinced, since it misses out on the fact that the entire world would have this mark whilst being blissfully unaware that they have it. What if the mark of the beast is somehow tied in with our complete dependence on the government to educate sustain and even to entertain us. In the western world there are few folk who can honestly say that if the government collapsed tomorrow they would be able to survive. Many people would lose their humanity in the ensuing chaos, others would go mad and a select few would manage to carve out a meagre existence, but it would hurt us no doubt about it. Fast forward a century, with economic collapses, epidemic scares, terrorist attacks wars food shortages yada yada and the people's dependence ont he government increases.

I wont go into more detail and expand because I dislike long rambling posts, but the nature of the mark is that even the "elite" christians would be deceived. I for one have not met any christians who would be truly willing to put their lives and prosperity on the line for their faith. The very fact that we choose to live in a society which clearly violates other nations' human rights and has done so for centuries is pretty damned telling. Why do we do it? Because if we choose to truly "drop out" we'd starve lose our families and our comforts.



Mark received in hand/forehead: Forehead implies the dependence on the "beast" implicit trust, almost religious respect for the system it institutes and the ethical compromise we make everyday. Hand is the fact that by functioning within society we actually provide the propulsion for the system.

All people forced to accept:Western governments expand into the entire world first through colonisation then through globalisation, from the rainforests to the serenghetti, the influence of government is extending slowly but surely. Globalisation implicates the world in the system

No trading without mark: This is something which can be seen vaguely today. If you refuse to receive the mark that is to be a cog in the wheel it becomes very difficult to make money. Bartering systems dont make folk exempt since somewhere down the line interaction with the system and thus enablement of the system is inevitable through transport of goods etc. Even if you live in an amish community which is as isolated from society as it is possible to get while living within society you are going to have to apply to the government for assistance in any number of things.

Government being the beast: Most problematic since western governments as a term is actually specious insofar as there is no one monolithic "empire" but we're coming close i'd say and there is one unifying ideal i.e. capitalism uniting governments. This singularity business is also relevant as ive heard scientists going star eyed and talking about a single intelligent computer which would have the omnipotence of a god called an "artilect" or rather the artilect.
 
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I dont think the mark will be a 666 on peoples forehead. It will be more like a credit card, social security number or microchip implant.
 
ah but this is what im referring to. Its just too obvious. The whole point of the mark is that 99.99 percent of the world receive it because it is embedded into society and the way in which we think. Basically I dont get the impression that its truly a matter of choice insofar as 99.9% of the world wont have a clue what the mark is. The quote that springs to mind is "Even the elite will be deceived" the elite being the cream of christianity.
 
The reason people will be deceived is because the beast will solve the problems of the world.

"And all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" - Revelation 13
 
I dont know nearly enough about rev to be able to get into a quote slinging match with you mate. You're clearly a devout christian and props to you for that. Probelm with saying people will be deceived because he'll be the best thing since sliced bread to the populace is that Christians will be aware that should a messiah figure come to the fore they need to be wary. In fact if we do have a figure who fits the bill there will be a massive outcry from the end time community. In such a scenario its doubtful that hardcore pious christians will be led astray.
Im not a christian and I dont subscribe to the tenets of the christian faith but I can see this prophecy actually being realised quite fully. The trend with world leaders today seems to be towards charisma and eloquence. Obama was a grand example of this - look how people responded to him. Adoration. The American government will doubtless produce more and more leaders after the Obama mould. Theyll need to in order to divert attention away from the fact that the administration is a farce.

The whole point of my post is to show one direction which the world could take. The quote you provided is brilliant because it shows that this beast will rule aS a conqueror having subdued other dissenting voices. If we continue to allow our governments to violate law after law by invading other countries we will have a situation where a single power takes dominance. The world today is as follows:

Africa:Developed Africa draws on western ideals and systems of government due to globalisation
Middle East:Military presence is destabalising the region, but America is in a position to install a puppet government if it so chooses, given the current lack of an administration
Israel:Relationship between America and Israel is fascinating to watch, there is clearly an antagonistic bond between the two
Europe:Western
China:Antagonistic but both nations cooperate - for now
Russia:Plenty of troubling rumours and vague echoes of the soviet past

What we see is a polarity. Russia China and Brazil are said to be forming a breakaway union from America which would have disastrous consequences but ultimately it would be replacing one corrupt admin with another. The union of these three nations would bring more stability to geopolitcs and pave the way for a smoother east/west dialogue. Overall however the effect would be to further perpetuate western culture. Oriental culture aspires to western ideals in many many ways (why i'll never know since oriental culture in all its subtle variations is far far richer) for example.


What im getting at is that the beast in my interpretation is representative of western society. Whether that representation be a man or government is irrelevant. The globalist agenda is critical since it allows this society to be perpetuated worldwide. Once you have a world which has succumbed to the western way of thinking the geopolitical description in revelation can come about.
 
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Its possible that it will happen post-rapture. So there wont be a massive outcry of endtime Christians.
 
Rapture? Now I am sounding like a real fundie but youve got to be consistent. If you say you're a bible believing christian sola scriptura and all that jazz you have to stick to it. The bible doesnt actually mention the rapture any where. Its a fabricated doctrine. From what I can remember the bible talks about a 1000 year tribulation during which the Earth will look alot like fallout but presumably withouut the kickin pre war tuneage. All of revleations happens before that though and after the millenium the judgment is meted out. Its not really the rapture of popular christianity because that implies that true christians escape the mark etc - they dont since revelations says that the most devout of christians will be deceived plus the 1000 years is explicitly described as ocurring after the mark is given out - I may be wrong my biblical knowledge is rusty so please correct me.
 
i remember my young mind being blown by the advice that the border and middle marks in all barcodes were supposedly the same widths as 6's, only longer. the best i can come up with atm is the world would be pretty shitty if it were so money-ccentric as we are progressing, but i can't quanitify it much.

does g-lsdxtc (aka 666ismoney) still post?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID_chip If the Beast is really well organized, maybe any surgery at a hospital could potentially leave you with a chip that you aren't told about? Hahaha. But I seriously doubt that. Maybe if we fall to some sort of world totalitarian government as some conspiracy theorists believe.
Or could it very well be a big metaphor for money or birth certificates? In one of mrastrotheology's youtube videos he explains that birth certificates are considered by the Vatican as proof of ownership whereas we only see them as birth certificates. Unfortunately I can't remember which video it was but I know that there is not one country on this planet that does not issue birth certificates although in reality not everyone gets one so... The greatest commonality all over the earth right now is money. You can't live without it! You know, money corrupts people and corporations and we all use it. However, there was money at the time they wrote them prophecies and you could argue that money is not evil in itself the actions of men are. So I don't know... Since, as you say, nearly all of humanity would bear this mark, we obviously wouldn't figure it out here. Maybe the moon is hollow and there is some mass control device over there affecting our very thoughts and dreams all the time! Personally, I think we're either not there yet, or it will all never come to pass.
 
I must say your theories are hilarious. It was a fun read.

So I'm kinda confused on what exactly is the beast? You say its a super computer and the government.

Technocratic dystopian future theories where so 20th century science fiction. It sounds like you combined the Bible with Brave New World and then made many inaccurate loose associations with current world events, you then spun it all into some apocalyptic theory.

Lay off the speed
 
I must say your theories are hilarious. It was a fun read.

So I'm kinda confused on what exactly is the beast? You say its a super computer and the government.

Technocratic dystopian future theories where so 20th century science fiction. It sounds like you combined the Bible with Brave New World and then made many inaccurate loose associations with current world events, you then spun it all into some apocalyptic theory.

Lay off the speed

You havent read the thread in full dude so youve completely missed the point. The point is to try and reinterepret the apocalyptic prophecies in the light of contemporary events. Im trying to show how even today the prophecies reverberate through geopolitics

Had you read the thread you'd know that the "brave new world" (great book by the way) was just a description of another conspiracy/end time prophecy. I dont endorse it or support it at all. If you believe ive made inaccurate loose associations also feel free to point them out.Do you disagree that globalism acts to disseminate western ideals and culture worldwide? Do you discount the plausibility of the world being ruled by a single power made up of allied powers?Are we not at least partly accountable for the abuses commited by our government simply by our enabling the system?

The mark in my system is the state of a man when he has allowed himself to be fully integrated into the dragon/beast politico-spiritual government. The state defines ones identity one's life and even dictates what one can and cant do with ones own body. The media shapes and moulds our psyche into the image of society. Our morality and even our beliefs about thenature of our soul are at least in part direct results of exposure to society. Compare the Native American brave to the upwardly mobile socialite - the architecture of their psyche are worlds apart. I dont think we realise how far modern man has strayed from his tribal ancestor worshipping past. We'll never know since we cant "compare conciousness" however. The chip/666 id number that is discussed may just be a representation of the above - a final seal to make the assimilation of the individual visual and thus final.

To be honest your post suggests that you're a bit of a dick - if youve got criticism frame it constructively. Simple.
 
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I distrust administators & their ways, I am displeased that I am not fully independent of the system, in fact I am fully dependent upon it.
I see that technology is going to become all encompassing thus permitting centralised control that is almost beyond the wildest dreams of most power crazed individuals. I don't like the feel of it, never have, never will.
I wonder if I'd like it any better if I was the guy who pulled the strings to make a world dance to my tune ?
Before technology we were vulnerable to disease & dieing early.
As we asserted control over nature I feel we may have distanced ourselves from a precarious contentedness and moved closer to a safe servitude which at first glance appears cosy.
We only appear to get one life, defining what is quality or what quality we truly desire is an important matter I feel.
There's a book on the subject of quality Can't recall if it was "Zen & the art of motorcycle maintainence" or "Lila" which dwelt on quality - both books I thought were well worth reading - I digress - lets face it we want it both ways & currently we are eating our cake & there's less of it to have.
 
Im pleasantly surprised to see someone else who sees that technology could very easily make 1984 into grim reality. This is why I dont believe that the drug war will ever be won by us - surveillance systems will eventually get to the point where we'll have absurd fantastical situations such as fingerprint scanners that detect drugs in the system that you have to use to sign into work or even enter the store. Eventually it will be rendered virtually impossible to smuggle drugs in too once they perfect scanners that can detect specific molecules. This stuff may happen after society changes its stance towards drugs but I doubt that somehow. Something as simple as random drug tests would make recreational drug use unfeasible and the government could pass legislation demanding it tomorrow - the general population would lap it up gladly with the think of the kids campaign that would accompany it.

Technology robs the common man of so much. It offers the promise of a life of ease and of wonders beyond the imagination - computerised gods and fully immersive virtual reality. However ultimately mankind is much the same as he was hundreds of years ago. I'd differentiate medicine and technology the latter has done more harm than good and its highly likely that in the future if we ever have full scale war some madman will shit a bomb from a great height making the planet uninhabitable.
Weve been holding out for the last century for technology to make us happy and it hasnt yet and I doubt if it ever will.
 
is 666 supposed to represent a limit?

i feel like .999... would be an even more unlucky number. but then again .999... = 1
9.999... = 10x
-(.999... = x)
=9=9x ==> x=1. but that doesnt work with .666 unless of course we had a 7 based number system where 7 represented a whole (mod 7; a clock would be mod 12) so mathematically .666... would be the same thing as 7 if 7 was the goal.
 
Im afraid you'll have to elaborate on that dude. I can see vaguely where you're coming from but the premise that 666 is an unlucky number is slightly flawed. Its not the number but what it stands for. 666 appears in the Old testament in reference to king solomon who had 666 pieces of gold or some such thing. 6 in the bible represents humanity. 3 sixes could just be alpha-numerical but it isnt an intrinsically unlucky number. In the apocalyptic/prophetic context it takes on symbolic meaning but outside of that 666 is just like any other number.
 
Im pleasantly surprised to see someone else who sees that technology could very easily make 1984 into grim reality. This is why I dont believe that the drug war will ever be won by us - surveillance systems will eventually get to the point where we'll have absurd fantastical situations such as fingerprint scanners that detect drugs in the system that you have to use to sign into work or even enter the store. Eventually it will be rendered virtually impossible to smuggle drugs in too once they perfect scanners that can detect specific molecules. This stuff may happen after society changes its stance towards drugs but I doubt that somehow. Something as simple as random drug tests would make recreational drug use unfeasible and the government could pass legislation demanding it tomorrow - the general population would lap it up gladly with the think of the kids campaign that would accompany it.

Technology robs the common man of so much. It offers the promise of a life of ease and of wonders beyond the imagination - computerised gods and fully immersive virtual reality. However ultimately mankind is much the same as he was hundreds of years ago. I'd differentiate medicine and technology the latter has done more harm than good and its highly likely that in the future if we ever have full scale war some madman will shit a bomb from a great height making the planet uninhabitable.
Weve been holding out for the last century for technology to make us happy and it hasnt yet and I doubt if it ever will.

the scanners you mention, well not quite, a fingerprint is the same regardless of whether you've consumed drugs..... already exist. biosensors can also be used for early disease detection. any technology can be used for a range of purposes, bad or for good, its us who decides, and we who are responsible, not technology. i wouldn't hold out for anything external to yourself to make you happy, ultimately all you can rely on is you.

i have the opposite view of technology to you, but you are certainly right that it could be used to generate a totalitarian scenario. tbh the way things are going i'd love to be compulsarily drugged up all the time.... i don't feel robbed, i feel massively enabled. and i don't think you can dissociate medicine from it, the same research thats going into experimental quantum metrology (i.e. next generation technology) is being used for medical imaging- medicine is a subset of technology.

is there any specific harm you're thinking of, that wasn't really perpetrated by a human? are we not the beast?
 
the scanners you mention, well not quite, a fingerprint is the same regardless of whether you've consumed drugs..... already exist. biosensors can also be used for early disease detection. any technology can be used for a range of purposes, bad or for good, its us who decides, and we who are responsible, not technology. i wouldn't hold out for anything external to yourself to make you happy, ultimately all you can rely on is you.

i have the opposite view of technology to you, but you are certainly right that it could be used to generate a totalitarian scenario. tbh the way things are going i'd love to be compulsarily drugged up all the time.... i don't feel robbed, i feel massively enabled. and i don't think you can dissociate medicine from it, the same research thats going into experimental quantum metrology (i.e. next generation technology) is being used for medical imaging- medicine is a subset of technology.

is there any specific harm you're thinking of, that wasn't really perpetrated by a human? are we not the beast?


Im not anti technology so much as anti science for science's sake. One thing that troubles me quite deeply is the fact that most of our medical advances were achieved through experimentation on animals and in some cases human beings. Live vivisection is equivalent to torture but if it werent for those individuals we would certainly not be as far ahead as we are now.

Technology is neutral but it takes on the image of whoever wields it. At the moment our governments have an unbelievable amount of control over what gets researched and how through grant schemes and sponsorship etc that's unacceptable. I dissociated medicine because though there will always be intersection technology for me is military and computer science primarily. The way I see it if tech was such a boon then we'd all be far more intelligent and capable but instead there seems to have been a huge decline in the cognitive abilities of the population mainly because we no longer excercise our minds we have all the information/entertainment minutes away.

The fingerprint scanner was more like a scanner which maybe takes a minute blood sample or tests hair follicles or even sweat residue. If the government declared such a technology the war on drugs would be over. How could anyone take drugs recreationally knowing that they'll be imprisoned the moment they try and enter a store or go to work or even fill up their tan. It would be instant victory unless we found some way of bypassing the system - in fact we already have this in place. In the UK jobs in the care sector require employees to take random piss tests. These are impossible to cheat since there is very little notice - basically you have no choice but to go unemployed or sober.

Technological harm comes in the form of weaponry which allows us to wage bloodier and bloodier wars. The vast and convoluted surveillance/intelligence networks which exist worldwide. At the moment its solely the military which has subverted technology to evil ends however in the far or near future the government is going to start using ever more complex technologies to prevent crime, which will be a double edged sword. It all depends on how we define crime and who defines crime. At what point will the term "thought crime" become everyday - that is when will the government have the ability to preemptively strike offenders the moment they imagine a crime? Once that happens and the government has that kind of power... technology such as the "voice of god" was used in Iraq to immobilise troops with sound waves. The guerilla fighters were literally brought to their knees. We are approaching an age where humanity's destiny will be decided and technology will replace magic and religion as the central force driving this new era. Either the advances we make in the next century will transform humanity into something better or we'll shit on ourselves from a great height
 
here's the list of recipients for the latest round of very presitigious EPSRC (i.e. government research council) grants. can you honestly tell me that the researchers who won did so on the basis of anything but merit? no agenda is being pushed with those fellowships. how would you fund science? it seems you wouldn't, but then how would you make medical advances? i would prefer governmental rather than private funding- corporations try to keep knowledge secret, to the detriment of science as a whole.

DARPA and GCHQ are another kettle of fish, government yet secretive, and i don't agree with their agendas- they also tend to be a bit thick, DARPA refused to fund a new potential architecture for a quantum computer on the basis that they couldn't plug it into the cigarette lighter in their jeep, people that out of touch shouldn't be in charge of that money.

we already have vast swathes of technology which could be used in the ways you're suggesting, some jobs have random drugs testing, so we clearly could make it mandatory for all every day, but we don't, and i don't see why any techological advance would change the way we use existing technology, other than leaving it obsolete.

i'm unsure about cognitive decline, were i born in the city i was born in 150 years ago i'd have worked in the mills 16 hours a day then died by 30, rather than ending up doing a phd, looks more like a leap than a decline. our brains have in the last century, thanks to the gradual buildup of complex scientific knowledge, acheived far more complex intellectual feats than humanity has ever acheived before, for example the maths used to prove frermats last theorem is more complicated than maths that even existed 100 years ago.

its far far far easier to blame inanimate objects for our inadequacies, and the disgusting acts we commit daily, rather than take collective responsibility as a species, so i sympathise with your view but i can't agree with it.
 
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