marijuana vs alcohol

[thujone]

comparing alcohol and reefer is bullshit imo. they are two different things. you cant just compare two different substances just because they are both psychoactive. imo, alcohol is nothing but a drug numbs your brain, gives you a fake courage. it has a pointless and weak high with many adverse effects. mj is a different subject tho. for me its a mind enhancer, a plant make you think and see things differently than usual. its also much more euphoric than alcohol. and the shittiest part about alcohol is the only way to consume it is to take it orally (dont tell me theres awol) which make your stomach fucked up. besides i also dont like the taste and smell of alcohol (all of them taste the same for me by the way).

are you completely unaware of the art and literature of the post-enlightenment era? it was rich with creativity that stemmed from the (ab)use of alcohol. just because you've slammed a few beers and don't feel too creative while buzzed or drunk doesn't mean the effect doesn't exist. what differs it from cannabis is that while high on cannabis most of that "mind expanding" is total bullshit, being creative on alcohol is completely viable. As someone who writes a lot, I have had to trash pages upon pages of material I wrote while high because when I got sober I found that every single idea I'd ever thought of while high was completely off. I've also read the works of people who write while high and suffer from the delusion that cannabis makes their writing better... the actual fact is it's rather pitiable because even when the ideas are pretty decent they lack connectivity to anything that would make the ideas tangible. on the other hand, drink a few glasses of absinthe and you can experience the aural, visual, and mental enhancements of cannabis while at the same time retaining a greater clarity of mind than when completely jaded on bud. I understand that you're not a big fan of alcohol, but should you ever take the time to explore it you will find that it is much more than simply a brain-numbing, courage serum. Even better, it won't rob you of life as cannabis has many people. Most weed smokers I know do it daily. Most alcohol aficionados I know wait until sunday morning to feel burnt out.

 

[Xorkoth]

Alcohol is a poisonous solvent. Weed is a plant.

Alcohol kills brain cells every time. Weed doesn't (aside from potential smoking issues (read: not vaporization issues))

Alcohol destroys the liver. Weed doesn't destroy the liver or the kidneys.

Alcohol is a boring, plain, one-dimensional, nasty feeling, whereas weed is a light psychedelic buzz of complexity and character.

Alcohol provides a hangover. Weed doesn't aside from potentially being a little drowsy.

Alcohol destroys your ability to reason on a higher level first. Weed never removes that ability.

Regular alcohol use leads to a very serious physical and mental addiction that can be life-threatening to withdraw from. Weed can cause you to become mentally addicted and (arguably) extremely weakly physically addicted.

Alcohol accounts for one of the top causes of death in the US. Weed isn't.

This is colored by my perception of the effect of alcohol, which is that it feels disgusting and poisonous. I know we're all affected differently.

And thujone, I've seen alcohol rob far more people of life than I've ever seen from weed. And more literally, too.

 

[Idi0tequ3]

i choose marijuana. not only are the effects better but you get to pick a bong/bowl and its enjoyable im so drunk right now and i still agree, weed kicks its ass

 

[the seeker]

Alcohol is a poisonous solvent. Weed is a plant.

Alcohol kills brain cells every time. Weed doesn't (aside from potential smoking issues (read: not vaporization issues))

actually youve got it backwards, alcohol does not kill brain cells and there is some evidence that marijuana does.

sources:

The toxicity of marijuana has been underestimated for a long time, since recent findings revealed delta9-THC-induced cell death with shrinkage of neurons and DNA fragmentation in the hippocampus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...tool=iconabstr&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Alcohol does not kill brain cells when drunk because at the concentrations which are typically reached when alcoholic drinks are consumed (~0.1%) it is incapable of permanently harming neurons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_alcohol_on_the_body#Action_on_the_brain

Alcohol destroys the liver. Weed doesn't destroy the liver or the kidneys.

but it does destroy the lungs and vaporizing it just isnt as fun for some people.

Alcohol provides a hangover. Weed doesn't aside from potentially being a little drowsy.

not true, weed can produce a "burn out" which consists of lethargy, poor memory and attention and feelings of depression/depersonalization. i actually get a worse hangover from weed than i do from alcohol, as long as i drink reasonable amounts of course.

Alcohol destroys your ability to reason on a higher level first. Weed never removes that ability.

marijuana can cause paranoia, panic attacks and psychotic symptoms.

, the available evidence supports the hypothesis that cannabis is an independent risk factor, both for psychosis and the development of psychotic symptoms. Addressing cannabis use, particularly in vulnerable populations, is likely to have beneficial effects on psychiatric morbidity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=11576028

Regular alcohol use leads to a very serious physical and mental addiction that can be life-threatening to withdraw from. Weed can cause you to become mentally addicted and (arguably) extremely weakly physically addicted.

regular use does not lead to a very serious physical addiction, regular very heavy use does.

 

[the seeker]

Originally Posted by elektra
comparing alcohol and reefer is bullshit imo. they are two different things. you cant just compare two different substances just because they are both psychoactive.
Exactly. Cannabis vs alcohol is apples and oranges

Exactly. Cannabis vs alcohol is apples and oranges.

actually thats not true, its a common misconception that you cannot compare apples and oranges. what you cannot do is compare apples to oranges in terms of apples or oranges. for example, you cant say which is a better orange, an apple or an orange? but you can say, out of these 2 different fruits which one do you prefer and why?

 

[$n0w]

God is good, man is not, man made beer and god made pot.

Sorry i just had to throw this in the thread. But ya i agree with everyone here, weed is better.

 

[yepyepwoah]

i like both, but alcohol I could see doing without forever, marijuana not.

gotta smoke everyday.

got in modes where I drink everyday, even if it's just a beer or two or a shot or two at night. break the habit and I realize how shitty drinking everyday makes me feel.

i feel shitty not smokin, marijuana for the win.

 

[Splatt]

There were many studies showing 20 standard drinks a week (250 grams) causes irriversable brain damage, or some type of shrinking of the brain wasn't there? But I don't think today's hydroponics is good for the brain.

 

[the seeker]

yes, i believe alcohol does damage the brain over time but it doesn't kill brain cells. killing brain cells isn't the only way a drug can damage the brain.

 

[EJ]

Do you understand what a cell is?

 

[Xorkoth]

actually youve got it backwards, alcohol does not kill brain cells and there is some evidence that marijuana does.

sources:

The toxicity of marijuana has been underestimated for a long time, since recent findings revealed delta9-THC-induced cell death with shrinkage of neurons and DNA fragmentation in the hippocampus.

One study does not prove anything. Still, interesting and something to think about

Alcohol does not kill brain cells when drunk because at the concentrations which are typically reached when alcoholic drinks are consumed (~0.1%) it is incapable of permanently harming neurons.

I don't see where in this article it says that alcohol does not kill any brain cells. However, from this same source of yours:

Carcinogenic effects
Main article: Alcohol and cancer
The International Agency for Research on Cancer (Centre International de Recherche sur le Cancer) of the World Health Organization has classified alcohol as a Group 1 carcinogen. Its evaluation states, "There is sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of alcoholic beverages in humans.… Alcoholic beverages are carcinogenic to humans (Group 1)."[1]

"Studies have suggested that high concentrations of acetaldehyde, which is produced as the body breaks down ethanol, could damage DNA in healthy cells. … Researchers at the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism in Bethesda, Maryland, have added weight to this idea by showing that the damage occurs at concentrations of acetaldehyde similar to those in saliva and the gastrointestinal tract while people drink alcohol. Acetaldehyde appears to react with polyamines - naturally occurring compounds essential for cell growth - to create a particularly dangerous type of mutagenic DNA base called a Cr-Pdg adduct…"[2]

The strongest link between alcohol and cancer involves cancers of the upper digestive tract, including the esophagus, the mouth, the pharynx, and the larynx. Less consistent data link alcohol consumption and cancers of the liver, breast, and colon.

Upper digestive tract. Chronic heavy drinkers have a higher incidence of esophageal cancer than does the general population. The risk appears to increase as alcohol consumption increases. An estimated 75 % of esophageal cancers in the United States are attributable to chronic, excessive alcohol consumption.

Nearly 50 % of cancers of the mouth, pharynx, and larynx are associated with heavy drinking. According to mid-1980s U.S. case-control study, people who consumed an average of more than four drinks per day incurred a nine-fold increase in risk of oral and pharyngeal cancer, while there was about a four-fold increase in risk associated with smoking two or more packs of cigarettes per day. Heavy drinkers who also were heavy smokers experienced a greater than 36-fold excess compared to abstainers from both products.

Liver. Prolonged, heavy drinking has been associated in many cases with primary liver cancer. However, it is liver cirrhosis, whether caused by alcohol or another factor, that is thought to induce the cancer. In areas of Africa and Asia, liver cancer afflicts 50 or more people per 100,000 per year, usually associated with cirrhosis caused by hepatitis viruses. In the United States, liver cancer is relatively uncommon, afflicting approximately 2 people per 100,000, but excessive alcohol consumption is linked to as many as 36 % of these cases by some investigators.

This is most definitely not the case with marijuana


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_alcohol_on_the_body#Action_on_the_brain

but it does destroy the lungs and vaporizing it just isnt as fun for some people.

It damages the lungs when smoked, yes. But this is a weak argument because vaporization is more fun for many people, and just as fun for others. And I'm assuming we're both talking about responsible use here, not overconsumption. Otherwise your "alcohol doesn't kill brain cells" argument would be flawed, because in overconsumption, alcohol does cause a large amount of brain damage.

not true, weed can produce a "burn out" which consists of lethargy, poor memory and attention and feelings of depression/depersonalization. i actually get a worse hangover from weed than i do from alcohol, as long as i drink reasonable amounts of course.

Again, of course this is true with overconsumption. Overconsumption of either alcohol or weed can cause significant hangovers and long-term effects. Personally I find the hangover from alcohol to be far more painful and difficult, even after just a moderate night of drinking. But we're all different I suppose.

marijuana can cause paranoia, panic attacks and psychotic symptoms.

, the available evidence supports the hypothesis that cannabis is an independent risk factor, both for psychosis and the development of psychotic symptoms. Addressing cannabis use, particularly in vulnerable populations, is likely to have beneficial effects on psychiatric morbidity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=11576028

Alright, cannabis is more likely to trigger psychotic symptoms than alcohol. We'll give alcohol that. However, your average person is extremely unlikely to develop psychotic symptoms from marijuana, because those symptoms are generally latent in the person's brain, for which marijuana is a trigger.

regular use does not lead to a very serious physical addiction, regular very heavy use does.

Well, again, let's not compare heavy marijuana use to light alcohol use. It doesn't prove anything to do so. Regular light use of alcohol CAN lead to a pphysical dependence over time, and regular heavy use leads to a life-threatening physical dependence. And it's a matter of debate as to whether heavy use of marijuana does cause a "serious" physical addiction. In my opinion, even at its worst, any other addictive drug I can think of would be a harder and more dangerous addiction to break.

You raise some interesting thoughts but you neglect to address the numerous studies which have shown alcohol to cause significant brain damage at any dose, and which have also shown pure cannabinoids unattached to any smoking action to not do so.

 

[the seeker]

One study does not prove anything. Still, interesting and something to think about

i didn't say it "proved anything". i said there was some evidence that marijuana is neurotoxic.

I don't see where in this article it says that alcohol does not kill any brain cells. However, from this same source of yours:

what? it says it right where you quoted it: "Alcohol does not kill brain cells when drunk because at the concentrations which are typically reached when alcoholic drinks are consumed (~0.1 it is incapable of permanently harming neurons."

Carcinogenic effects
Main article: Alcohol and cancer
The International Agency for Research on Cancer (Centre International de Recherche sur le Cancer) of the World Health Organization has classified alcohol as a Group 1 carcinogen. Its evaluation states, "There is sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of alcoholic beverages in humans.… Alcoholic beverages are carcinogenic to humans (Group 1)."[1]

"Studies have suggested that high concentrations of acetaldehyde, which is produced as the body breaks down ethanol, could damage DNA in healthy cells. … Researchers at the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism in Bethesda, Maryland, have added weight to this idea by showing that the damage occurs at concentrations of acetaldehyde similar to those in saliva and the gastrointestinal tract while people drink alcohol. Acetaldehyde appears to react with polyamines - naturally occurring compounds essential for cell growth - to create a particularly dangerous type of mutagenic DNA base called a Cr-Pdg adduct…"[2]

The strongest link between alcohol and cancer involves cancers of the upper digestive tract, including the esophagus, the mouth, the pharynx, and the larynx. Less consistent data link alcohol consumption and cancers of the liver, breast, and colon.

Upper digestive tract. Chronic heavy drinkers have a higher incidence of esophageal cancer than does the general population. The risk appears to increase as alcohol consumption increases. An estimated 75 % of esophageal cancers in the United States are attributable to chronic, excessive alcohol consumption.

Nearly 50 % of cancers of the mouth, pharynx, and larynx are associated with heavy drinking. According to mid-1980s U.S. case-control study, people who consumed an average of more than four drinks per day incurred a nine-fold increase in risk of oral and pharyngeal cancer, while there was about a four-fold increase in risk associated with smoking two or more packs of cigarettes per day. Heavy drinkers who also were heavy smokers experienced a greater than 36-fold excess compared to abstainers from both products.

Liver. Prolonged, heavy drinking has been associated in many cases with primary liver cancer. However, it is liver cirrhosis, whether caused by alcohol or another factor, that is thought to induce the cancer. In areas of Africa and Asia, liver cancer afflicts 50 or more people per 100,000 per year, usually associated with cirrhosis caused by hepatitis viruses. In the United States, liver cancer is relatively uncommon, afflicting approximately 2 people per 100,000, but excessive alcohol consumption is linked to as many as 36 % of these cases by some investigators.

so? what was the point of posting all that? i never said alcohol wasn't carcinogenic.

It damages the lungs when smoked, yes. But this is a weak argument because vaporization is more fun for many people, and just as fun for others. And I'm assuming we're both talking about responsible use here, not overconsumption. Otherwise your "alcohol doesn't kill brain cells" argument would be flawed, because in overconsumption, alcohol does cause a large amount of brain damage.

you seem to be missing the point here. im not trying to say that alcohol is a safer drug than marijuana, i was simply questioning a number of your claims because i felt they were innaccurate.

Alright, cannabis is more likely to trigger psychotic symptoms than alcohol. We'll give alcohol that. However, your average person is extremely unlikely to develop psychotic symptoms from marijuana, because those symptoms are generally latent in the person's brain, for which marijuana is a trigger.

cannabis is an independent risk factor for psychotic symptoms, meaning it can cause them even in healthy people.

Well, again, let's not compare heavy marijuana use to light alcohol use. It doesn't prove anything to do so. Regular light use of alcohol CAN lead to a pphysical dependence over time, and regular heavy use leads to a life-threatening physical dependence. And it's a matter of debate as to whether heavy use of marijuana does cause a "serious" physical addiction. In my opinion, even at its worst, any other addictive drug I can think of would be a harder and more dangerous addiction to break.

im not comparing heavy marijuana use to light alcohol use. i was simply correcting your statement that regular alcohol use causes "serious physical dependence". drinking 3 nights a week certainly constitutes regular use but it does not cause serious physical dependence. it takes quite large amounts of alcohol to produce a life threatening withdrawal.

You raise some interesting thoughts but you neglect to address the numerous studies which have shown alcohol to cause significant brain damage at any dose, and which have also shown pure cannabinoids unattached to any smoking action to not do so.

i did not neglect to addess anything, you claimed that alcohol killed brain cells and marijuana did not and YOU neglected to address the potential neurotoxity of THC as well as the studies which show that alcohol doesn't kill brain cells.

 

[the seeker]

Do you understand what a cell is?

cell: a usually microscopic structure containing nuclear and cytoplasmic material enclosed by a semipermeable membrane and, in plants, a cell wall; the basic structural unit of all organisms.

more evidence that alcohol does not kill brain cells:

alcohol does not kill brain cells but rather damages dendrites--the branched ends of nerve cells that bring messages into the cell.

http://www.wonderquest.com/BrainCells.htm

Scientific medical research has actually demonstrated that the moderate consumption of alcohol is associated with better cognitive (thinking and reasoning) skills and memory than is abstaining from alcohol. Moderate drinking doesn’t kill brain cells but helps the brain function better into old age. Studies around the world involving many thousands of people report this finding. 2

Of course, years of alcohol abuse can cause serious neurological damage, including Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome. Harm can be done to message-carrying dendrites on neurons in the cerebellum, a part of the brain involved in learning and physical coordination. But even in such extreme cases, there’s a lack of evidence that alcohol kills brain cells.



now my question for you is, do you know what a cell is?

 

[Julkaa]

I pick weed over alcohol. I am a social drinker so i need to sip on martini's and margarita's for a while. Once im drunk i dont have energy to do anything, i just have fun watching people have fun lol. When i smoke weed i get a blast of energy. I am usualy the person that entertains everyone etc. But you cant always pick one, there are times where you can pick alcohol over weed and vice-versa.

 

[thujone]

this is turning into an intense thread... however, i'm still going to side with alcohol. the reason being that all evidence shows alcohol is the lesser of two evils, and such evidence is supported by health professionals I have known, some of whom are pioneer revolutionaries in preventative healing. There's no denying that alcohol abuse has consequences, but the consequences of marijuana abuse is repeatedly overlooked because of it's benign nature. to further that point, most people (including those that formulate the studies to test the nature of our interaction with these drugs) don't consider daily cannabis use to be heavy whereas daily drinking is considered heavy. But why? Personally, I still feel as mentally sluggish (sometimes moreso) after getting high at night as I do after a night of drinking (let's pretend that the physical discomforts don't exist for now, as the conversation has recently gotten focused on the mental detrements of either drug). We also have these ties between cannabis and sloooooowly developing mental problems such as schizophrenia.

I have been devout to cannabis for a while now, so it's a bit hard for me to express this, but truly, when it comes to mental capabilities cannabis use is far more disruptive to our normal cognitive functions (just consider all the totally outlandish thoughts you've had while baked) than alcohol. Also consider that I wrote such a cogent report while drunk... which I would not have been able to while high because my mind would have been completely lost in some other completely random thought. Definitely not good for the ol gray matter. Conclusively; people who abuse alcohol are certainly given to be more ON THE EDGE than people who don't, but their capabilities toward rational thinking (i.e. NOT abstract thought, despite how cohesive the abstract ideas of a stoner may initially appear) are certainly better off than those of a stoner.

 

[wesmdow]

^ dude everyone participating in this discussion is bound to be either baked, or drunk, or both.


marijuana is so far the superior of alcohol... i think xorkoth summed it up nicely

 

[EJ]

the seeker: Ok, if you want to split hairs, i'll agree that there's no evidence that alcohol "kills" brain cells, even though I hadn't said otherwise. But damaged or mutated cells, which are inevitable with alcohol use, are as useful as cells that are no longer there. It has been proven that brain cells can grow back after abstaining from alcohol, as you are probably aware. Therefore, distinction between "dead" cells and damaged/mutated cells when discussing alcohol is purely semantic. In practical terms, they both mean that metabolic and cognitive processes of the brain are impaired, and remain that way until new cells are formed. Even then, there's no guarentee that all neural functions can eventually return to normal.

I also still maintain "cannabis vs. alcohol" is apples and oranges, and it's been confirmed by nearly every post in this thread. Any pros and cons one sees in each drug is dictated by variables unique to each user. For example, what can you establish without standard dosages of each drug? Sure, there is a "standard drink" measurement for alcohol, but what is cannabis' equivalent? Even taking the "standard drink" measurement for alcohol, it is proven that the majority of Asians have slow-acting enzymes that break down acetaldehyde twice as slowly as the enzymes in other races, thus making alcohol consumption a more unpleasant experience for Asians (everything else being equal, of course).

Asking which drug people prefer on a cannabis message board is of course going to slant the result in favour of cannabis. So then, what is the point? It's quite useless.

 

[Xorkoth]

I have been devout to cannabis for a while now, so it's a bit hard for me to express this, but truly, when it comes to mental capabilities cannabis use is far more disruptive to our normal cognitive functions (just consider all the totally outlandish thoughts you've had while baked) than alcohol. Also consider that I wrote such a cogent report while drunk... which I would not have been able to while high because my mind would have been completely lost in some other completely random thought. Definitely not good for the ol gray matter. Conclusively; people who abuse alcohol are certainly given to be more ON THE EDGE than people who don't, but their capabilities toward rational thinking (i.e. NOT abstract thought, despite how cohesive the abstract ideas of a stoner may initially appear) are certainly better off than those of a stoner.

Subjective. Anyway, are you talking about during the effects of the drug, or after? Afterwards, I would agree that cannabis causes more mental slowing than alcohol. But you talk about it like you're talking about during their effects (ie, "outlandish thoughts you've had while baked"). If so, I beg to differ. Cannabis certainly changes thought patterns away from what most would consider "rational" in the sober world, it's true. But that's the reason people use it, for the most part. Alcohol may leave your thoughts more "normal" during its effects, but it's a fact that the very first mental function affected by alcohol is judgement and higher thought, and alcohol very quickly shuts down higher thought processes. I guess it depends on which you value more, but to me, I find it worse to partake of a drug that literally redices your capacity for intelligence than one which simply alters your higher thought processes.

Anyway, not trying to put you down or anything, we all have valid opinions and points here. And in the future, to avoid comparing apples to oranges a little bit, let's try to compare the effects of heavy use of cannabis with heavy use of alcohol, or light use of cannabis with light use of alcohol. I know this definition can differ, but can I suggest one time per day to be light use, and more than that to be heavy use? So perhaps 2-4 drinks per day at one time, and a few hits per day at one time to be the maximum of light, responsible use, just so we can have some concrete amounts to refer to?

 

[the seeker]

the seeker: Ok, if you want to split hairs, i'll agree that there's no evidence that alcohol "kills" brain cells, even though I hadn't said otherwise. But damaged or mutated cells, which are inevitable with alcohol use, are as useful as cells that are no longer there. It has been proven that brain cells can grow back after abstaining from alcohol, as you are probably aware. Therefore, distinction between "dead" cells and damaged/mutated cells when discussing alcohol is purely semantic. In practical terms, they both mean that metabolic and cognitive processes of the brain are impaired, and remain that way until new cells are formed. Even then, there's no guarentee that all neural functions can eventually return to normal.

I also still maintain "cannabis vs. alcohol" is apples and oranges, and it's been confirmed by nearly every post in this thread. Any pros and cons one sees in each drug is dictated by variables unique to each user. For example, what can you establish without standard dosages of each drug? Sure, there is a "standard drink" measurement for alcohol, but what is cannabis' equivalent? Even taking the "standard drink" measurement for alcohol, it is proven that the majority of Asians have slow-acting enzymes that break down acetaldehyde twice as slowly as the enzymes in other races, thus making alcohol consumption a more unpleasant experience for Asians (everything else being equal, of course).

Asking which drug people prefer on a cannabis message board is of course going to slant the result in favour of cannabis. So then, what is the point? It's quite useless.

the point was that i was interested to hear why cannabis users prefered cannabis to alcohol and their thoughts on alcohol. is that a crime?

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ Absolutely not, and it's a good thread. However, EJ was just replying to your particular post about the lack of brain cell death from alcohol, and pointing out that a reduction in the health and effectiveness of neurons that may or may not grow back isn't really any better than outright death of cells.