Marijuana Mental Health

[Artificial Emotion]

I didn't say it validates anything, I said it mentions marijuana with what I believe is good reasoning.
At the very least, it is worth the mentioning... there is no need to ignore it.

As far as mental health, a lot of things really aren't understood.
When it comes to drugs, we still don't understand everything either.

You combine the two, we have a lot of understanding to do.

A debate is alright, coming off sarcastically and insulting people isn't...there is no need to get that overly defensive.

This was not first intended to be a battle of sides and presenting evidence and facts arguing causes and so and so forth.
Obviously, it took that turn.

I didn't intend for thing to get this heated, lets take it down a notch.

It was meant to shine light on people's personal experiences both good and bad, and there is no need to try discredit anyone's view of how it effects them and prove them wrong.

You cited the DSM because you thought it would add weight to your argument (otherwise why else mention it?). It's not 1973 but this just shows how vulnerable the DSM is to political influence. It's written by a bunch of psychiatrists who vote what should and shouldn't become an illness behind closed doors away from scrutiny and with little transparency. If our understanding of mental health can change as you say, surely you must see that at one point it may have been thought that cannabis could be major cause of schizophrenia but when reviewing all the evidence our understanding about the link between cannabis and schizophrenia can change?

As for our current understanding of cannabis as a risk factor for psychosis, if you review the current literature and look at various meta-analyses you will see there is no causal link between cannabis use and psychosis.

Extrapolating experiments where volunteers are injected intravenously and subjected to various questions on their mental state to the smoking or vaporization of herbal cannabis or hashish is if you don't mind me saying, idiotic and at the very least, defies common sense. Above you were quite clearly asserting that cannabis does cause psychosis, using this sort pseudoscientific claptrap as evidence to support the theory. I'll make it clear again - experiencing transient anxiety or paranoia when smoking is not the same as someone experiencing a prolonged acute psychotic episode or someone suffering from schizophrenia. Nor is someone freaking out after being injected with pure THC evidence that cannabis can cause psychosis. You're adding one plus one and coming out with five i.e. jumping to conclusions.

At the end of the day, even if you accept that smoking cannabis does lead to psychosis, the chances of it happening are so small it's not worth worrying about. This is why I made the point about alcohol. You're far more likely to suffer from psychosis from alcohol abuse than cannabis abuse. I make this point because it gets things into perspective, not because I am trying to make the discussion about alcohol as was claimed earlier in the thread by i against i. When you take into consideration that 60% of adults in the US are drinkers, the type of rhetoric we see from the likes of the DEA depicting cannabis as a threat to public mental health is at best misguided and at worst, disingenuous. The lifetime incidence of schizophrenia is about 1% but this doesn't appear different amongst countries with high rates of cannabis use and countries where cannabis use is incredibly rare.

You need to have a thicker skin. I don't see a problem with arguing something passionately as long as I'm not being vitriolic or abusive. I feel strongly about the subject and so will vigorously argue my point unashamedly.

 

[liftedgift]

I haven't smoked for awhile now, but when I was weed never made me feel anxious it did the opposite. It always seemed to calm me down, and always made me happy. And I think every person is mentally ill to a certain extent, its just what life does in my opinion. Can weed make you experience some things that maybe change your mental perspective? I guess, but so can just living clean and sober.

Is it the weed that causes these mental issues or would the person develop them anyway if he/she had not used? I don't know how you would prove that so it's best to do what makes your mental health manageable.

 

[FnX]

I think it's very misleading to use the word "mental illness" as if we were talking about diseases, especially if we're talking about stuff caused by drug (ab)use. I believe every drug that has an effect on mental functions can potentially disrupt said functions temporarily after the drugs effect wears off, even if we're talking about a simple mood shift. Obviously there are many variables in the equation such as strenght of drug, dosage and frequency of use, but the thing is, the brain is a very adaptable organ, it's not rigid at all. No matter what drug, it will eventually adapt to it if there's a constant presence in the bloodstream and it will start to alter the way it works by for example up/down regulating certain receptors in the brain. If you stop taking said drug, eventually your brain should return close to baseline. It might take some time though, during which you may experience anxiety, depression, insomnia and such. If cannabis can have a positive effect on ones mental health, I think it would be foolish to assume that it can't go the other way under any circumstances.

 

[liftedgift]

^^ That's kinda what I'm getting at, mental illness is so broad. There is completely insane where you can't distinguish reality from dreams for example, then there is depression and such. I mean how do you even know you have mental illness if you cannot compare your mind to others if that makes sense.

Like I kind of consider myself depressed in a way from the situation of life that I am in.
But I compare it to other people's depression, like wanting to kill themselves and stuff, which I do not want to do. And from that comparison my depression is not bad at all.

Like I posted before, I think we all have certain mental "problems" just we all handle them differently and maybe people can tell more easily with certain people. I will never know if my smoking effected my mental health because I cannot change the past, it has already been done. I can say that with me being sober I am a lot more irritable, probably not as funny, and maybe more unfriendly and I haven't used or drank for months so the withdrawing phase is over, I think its just the way I am and never really knew the sober me

 

[rave_itsrealfun!!!]

Considering long term effects, the risk is low. Once people stop they tend to be fine.

However, it is completely obvious to me that habitual use can cause so many problems. Paranoia, antisocialism, severe depression to the point of suicidal ideations, anxiety, decreased memory, low self esteem, and burnout are all things that I have experienced while smoking 5 grams a day. These effects subside within a short period of abstinence, however I have chosen to be high for years on end due to addiction.

I would classify the compulsive use of something that is having detrimental effects on one's being, with inability or extreme difficulty to cease such behaviour, as a mental illness, regardless of technicalities. I also get horrible withdrawal symptoms, where for a few days upon quitting I am basically fighting through miserable days of extreme burnout. I can't even eat food without puking the first couple days if I've been really stoned for a really long time.

If hardcore stoners who don't experience these things, or arn't aware of them, do not accept the fact that cannabis can FUCK people up very very badly, that is pretty darn ignorant in my opinion. I'm not stupid; I know what this shit does to me and I'm a stable guy off it. I've never experienced these problems apart from chronic, constant smoking creating them within.

Just look around you - I'm sure many of you know quite a few burnouts who smoke weed from morning til night, have subtle social problems and freak out when they don't have it. That's not mentally healthy.

When I smoke weed all day, or when I'm withdrawing, I often feel like slitting my worthless wrists. I also avoid social contact with people and do not talk. When I'm off cannabis, I NEVER experience such thoughts and I'm your typical cheerful, social man. I am living proof it fucks people up.

The down I get from this drug is by far the worst down I get out of all the drugs I have tried. It has also created dichotomy in my personality - a part of my still loves everything about smoking weed. It has split my personality in two.

Not to mention, my medical doctor agrees. She has seen shit like this on countless occasions, and could easily point me to some valid studies.

People with mental illness may self medicate with weed - this is not to rule out that sane people who enjoy the powerful consciousness expanding and euphoric recreational drug can get addicted, smoke mountains of it over a decade and end up pretty fucked up.

I'm not saying this is common - most stoners I know do not become terrible addicts and are fine. It's through smoking tons of weed, more than you need to be maximally high, for very long periods of time that stuff like this might arise. Some people are just susceptible to this kind of habit.

If I were to hit up a psychologist on the dope, or off the dope, there would be a world of difference. There is literally nothing about my sober self that is fucked up enough to diagnose, but my stoned self is depressed as fuck and off in la-la land, doubtless qualifying for something.

I can count on 2 hands the number of long term stoners I know personally who I dicuss these things with. They also admit that cannabis fucks their brains up worse than all the other drugs they do. Not to mention people I have met on this site who agree with me.

 

[Chainer]

Let's keep the discussion on point.

last warning... this thread has been reported several times now.

When a normal person goes from good mental health to having mental health issues soon after smoking marijuana...rather there was a predisposition or not its safe to say that marijuana probably influenced it.

I think this is as far as any connection can be made.

 

[alantis360]

Ive had mild psychotic like symptoms from weed before. Its a little worse with synthetics but after a break I was able to enjoy it again. I have used
risperidone before with great success the first few days of quitting and for the psychotic symptoms.

 

[rogertoger]

The compounds in weed that get you high are psychoactives (drugs). As with every other drug, long-term use affects the user. One short term negative from weed IS psychosis, although psychosis is an extremely broad term (wikipedia the definition) and there are many firsthand accounts even on these forums of this. In my opinion, it's not unreasonable to guess that the long term negative effects are related or similar to the short term ones. And like every other drug, the effects vary slightly in different people.

 

[loiterus]

smoking 5 grams a day.

That's heaps. I barely go through 5 grams per two months. Then again I don't use it to get intoxicated, I just use enough to either help me sleep or ease my back pain.

 

[i against i]

Let's keep the discussion on point.

last warning... this thread has been reported several times now.

who are you warning? where is the discussion off point?

 

[Chainer]

who are you warning? where is the discussion off point?

the entire first two pages? Just a thread warning, if it gets further derailed. This isn't the place to bicker back and forth, if the discussion reverts back to piety bickering, it should be taken to PMs.

 

[yteek]

People get too caught up worrying if it caused it or if it was predisposition or whatever....the thing is once it comes up you gotta deal with it either way debating rather it was a direct cause or not isn't really important at that point . Like I said its like wondering what came first the chicken or the egg, nobody knows but still you find a way to work with it.

 

[Artificial Emotion]

^ on a personal level once you're suffering from it perhaps not, but imo it does matter in so much as it allows one to make informed decisions and the whole issue has serious implications for the legalisation/decriminalisation/medicalisation movement, especially when it's one of the main reasons governments give for continued prohibition. One of the main arguments prohibitionists use is that the weed of today is x times stronger than the weed they smoked in their youth and that consequently it is a major cause of mental illness. This has the effect of scaring parents and acts as a justification for keeping it illegal (as well as hiding their own hypocrisy). The more we can educate people the more we have a chance of actually having better drug policy based on science.

 

[yteek]

I think its just ignorance more then anything, still with the research thats been brought forward in the last decade nothing has really changed. Its just traditional laws that seem to never change, look at alcohol....we're pretty much all aware of the negative implications of it yet people are allowed to sell it and use it legally.

The weed is stronger today, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to have negative effects from it.

What do you mean it allows people to make informed decisions?

Like in which way?

I think personally and generally though, for those users of marijuana faced with these kind of issues and even those who aren't could be able to understand it better....truth be told we may never find out exactly why it happens(there's obviously a correlation,not saying it equals causation) but if we can at least try to find a common ground and look for a solution then I think that would be a step forward.

I'm not anti-weed,I'm certainly for the legalization of it but I try not to be one sided on the subject(it has its pro/cons just like anything else)...I'm speaking on how I view my experience and others in the same situation. I didn't really want this about being pro-marijuana and fighting for the cause or those bashing weed(which isn't the case), thats alright and everything if you're enthusiastic on the subject...I just wanted it to focus on personal issues more then being a matter of a weed war.

 

[Artificial Emotion]

The weed is stronger today, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to have negative effects from it.

What do you mean it allows people to make informed decisions?

Like in which way?

It's a bit misleading and simplistic to just say it's stronger IMO. The stronger weed back in the 1800s was just as strong as the strongest most 'dank', top-shelf weed today. It's just that because we have access to better growing techniques on the whole, stronger weed is a bit more common then it was in the 1800s, the 1960s or even 20 years ago. Just claiming it is stronger is a bit dangerous because it leads people to believe we've managed to breed cannabis that's a lot more potent than the weed 50 or 100 years ago, which is not really the case. In fact, recently I've even noticed tabloid newspapers even referring to 'skunk' as being 'genetically modified', probably because of the potency claims that have been made in recent years. Again, these claims are not really founded on scientific evidence. Any increases in potency have been rather modest if you look at the actual data.

The reason people can make more informed decisions about whether to use cannabis is because they will be aware that it's probably not as risky to their mental health as is made out to be. It's easy to see how people can be misled with people in government saying we want to keep prosecuting users, growers or whatever to send out the message that cannabis is a serious danger to your mental health, when in fact if you examine the evidence that couldn't be farther from the truth, especially if you take into perspective the risks of everyday substances like alcohol in particular.

I'm just advocating being realistic about cannabis rather than giving out an inaccurate or false impression about the relative harms of cannabis. I never said there weren't any risks associated with cannabis, but it's important that if you're going to claim x, y, z about cannabis you'd better have the evidence to back up your assertions. It's not about being biased in anyway but rather I'm trying to be realistic and rely on the current evidence as I understand it.

 

[yteek]

Claiming it to be stronger really ins't that dangerous, just means you have to use less.

Technically weed is stronger then is used to be decades ago, through breeding new strains and better growing techniques...it is better then ever.Looking at some specimens showing 25% thc and even higher and then if you go into looking at the hashes and oils available today theres a whole new playing field.

I believe I didn't give out any inaccurate information or false impressions on the harms cannabis.

There really isn't an overwhelming amount of evidence on how it effects your mental health to prove anything, I could cherry pick articles from either side but its all just speculation at this point.

Like I said, proof is not what I'm aiming for in this thread.
Lets be honest, if I were to speak on positive aspects of marijuana and its benefits....you wouldn't be going out the way to argue against it.

It comes of as if you're so concerned with the image of marijuana to the public you want to discredit the personal experience of many, feel free to do so but like I said thats not the point of this thread and you've seen to mistake it for something else entirely. It is important people take the time to look into these personal experiences, just as much if not more then analyzing any other suggestive studies.

 

[Artificial Emotion]

Claiming it to be stronger really ins't that dangerous, just means you have to use less.

Technically weed is stronger then is used to be decades ago, through breeding new strains and better growing techniques...it is better then ever.Looking at some specimens showing 25% thc and even higher and then if you go into looking at the hashes and oils available today theres a whole new playing field.

I believe I didn't give out any inaccurate information or false impressions on the harms cannabis.

There really isn't an overwhelming amount of evidence on how it effects your mental health to prove anything, I could cherry pick articles from either side but its all just speculation at this point.

Like I said, proof is not what I'm aiming for in this thread.
Lets be honest, if I were to speak on positive aspects of marijuana and its benefits....you wouldn't be going out the way to argue against it.

It comes of as if you're so concerned with the image of marijuana to the public you want to discredit the personal experience of many, feel free to do so but like I said thats not the point of this thread and you've seen to mistake it for something else entirely. It is important people take the time to look into these personal experiences, just as much if not more then analyzing any other suggestive studies.

I didn't say stronger weed is dangerous. I said spreading misinformation such as the claim that it is far far stronger than it used to be like the tabloids do is, because of the reasons I stated. As for weed being stronger, I'll quote what I said to avoid having to repeat myself:

The stronger weed back in the 1800s was just as strong as the strongest most 'dank', top-shelf weed today. It's just that because we have access to better growing techniques on the whole, stronger weed is a bit more common then it was in the 1800s, the 1960s or even 20 years ago. Just claiming it is stronger is a bit dangerous because it leads people to believe we've managed to breed cannabis that's a lot more potent than the weed 50 or 100 years ago, which is not really the case. In fact, recently I've even noticed tabloid newspapers even referring to 'skunk' as being 'genetically modified', probably because of the potency claims that have been made in recent years. Again, these claims are not really founded on scientific evidence. Any increases in potency have been rather modest if you look at the actual data.

Back in the 1800s they will have had herbal cannabis, hashish and extracts mostly just as strong as what you will usually find today for the most part. But again, read what I quoted above.

As for giving out inaccurate info/false impressions, well you did wrt to your claim that cannabis causes psychosis but I'm not going to go round in circles. To be fair you did backtrack. I'm not sure what makes you think I'm being biased when I'm only basing my arguments on our current understanding of the issue. If I'm frank it's a bit ironic of you to say that really. If the evidence did show that cannabis were a major factor in schizophrenia or psychosis I would be willing to be accepting of it but as it stands, that's not the case, so I'm not sure what you expect me to do. If refusing to accept bad science makes me 'biased' then so be it. I prefer to 'call a spade a spade' as you say.

 

[yteek]

I didn't say stronger weed is dangerous, you're putting words into my mouth. I said spreading misinformation such as the claim that it is far far stronger than it used to be like the tabloids do is, because of the reasons I stated. As for weed being stronger, I'll quote what I said to avoid having to repeat myself:



Back in the 1800s they will have had herbal cannabis, hashish and extracts mostly just as strong as what you will usually find today for the most part. But again, read what I quoted above.

As for giving out inaccurate info/false impressions, well you did wrt to your claim that cannabis causes psychosis but I'm not going to go round in circles. To be fair you did backtrack. I'm not sure what makes you think I'm being biased when I'm only basing my arguments on our current understanding of the issue. If I'm frank it's a bit ironic of you to say that really. If the evidence did show that cannabis were a major factor in schizophrenia or psychosis I would be willing to be accepting of it but as it stands, that's not the case, so I'm not sure what you expect me to do. If refusing to accept bad science makes me 'biased' then so be it.

I didn't say you said strong weed is more dangerous, you said claiming weed is stronger could be dangerous...I didn't put words in your mouth.

There is no evidence available of percentages from the 1800's but growing techniques and breeding techniques have developed significantly over the years to produce higher quality and generally more potent pot...I'm positive they weren't making BHO in the 1800s or bubble hash or growing with HPS lights in a controlled environment. Even if you look into the 1970s and 1980s the percentages have gone up in comparison, not to say you couldn't find some decent pot back then.

Also you don't see me saying it is a major factor in schizophrenia or psychosis but I do know it can provoke psychotic-like reactions.

Like I said if it were the other way around and I was glorifying marijuana and raving about it benefits(which can be just as speculative), you wouldn't take the time to argue with me but since its the other way around you feel the need to do so. There are studies suggesting it could be a major factor, just as many as the ones you read saying otherwise...I'm not going to cherry pick articles cause in reality we argue it for pages..nobody knows for certain.

The thing I would like to focus on is what we can do now and focus on us as individuals and not turn this into a back in forth argument of research and proving something that neither of us are really capable of doing so at this time.

 

[Artificial Emotion]

I didn't say you said strong weed is more dangerous, you said claiming weed is stronger could be dangerous...I didn't put words in your mouth.

There is no evidence available of percentages from the 1800's but growing techniques and breeding techniques have developed significantly over the years to produce higher quality and generally more potent pot...I'm positive they weren't making BHO in the 1800s or bubble hash or growing with HPS lights in a controlled environment. Even if you look into the 1970s and 1980s the percentages have gone up in comparison, not to say you couldn't find some decent pot back then.


Like I said if it were the other way around and I was glorifying marijuana and raving about it benefits(which can be just as speculative), you wouldn't take the time to argue with me but since its the other way around you feel the need to do so. There are studies suggesting it could be a major factor, just as many as the ones you read saying otherwise...I'm not going to cherry pick articles cause in reality we argue it for pages..nobody knows for certain.

The thing I would like to focus on is what we can do now and focus on us as individuals and not turn this into a back in forth argument of research and proving something that neither of us are really capable of doing so at this time.

Weed grown indoors under lights is not more potent than the best sinsemilla grown in say an equatorial region. Regional Thai landrace strains can kick out higher percentages of THC than most hybrid strains on the market today. In fact, in areas near the equator at high altitudes, certain strains that get more UV light can be far more potent than most hybrids you'll find in grow room conditions. Anyway, more to the point, have you even grown cannabis before?

Again, read the quoted text above.

Also you don't see me saying it is a major factor in schizophrenia or psychosis but I do know it can provoke psychotic-like reactions.

Now you're just playing with words.

Even if you look into the 1970s and 1980s the percentages have gone up in comparison, not to say you couldn't find some decent pot back then.

Again, read what the quoted text below:

The stronger weed back in the 1800s was just as strong as the strongest most 'dank', top-shelf weed today. It's just that because we have access to better growing techniques on the whole, stronger weed is a bit more common then it was in the 1800s, the 1960s or even 20 years ago. Just claiming it is stronger is a bit dangerous because it leads people to believe we've managed to breed cannabis that's a lot more potent than the weed 50 or 100 years ago, which is not really the case. In fact, recently I've even noticed tabloid newspapers even referring to 'skunk' as being 'genetically modified', probably because of the potency claims that have been made in recent years. Again, these claims are not really founded on scientific evidence. Any increases in potency have been rather modest if you look at the actual data.

 

[yteek]

I'd disagree, I just don't think marijuana was as strong or you could even find anything up to par in the 1800s as it would be in 2012...but I'll just agree to disagree, I don't think there is enough info or evidence as far the cultivation of cannabis and its quality in that era goes.
Anyway, thats all irrelevant to what was intended for the original topic...
I wanted this to be about personal experience and its just turned into a weed war... I rather just quit with all that now while were ahead.