Mandatory abortion proposed in Holland

[KombatMEDication]

you racist yanks are paying black crack-head moms $$$$ to get sterilized. check it all out at Project Prevention

you racist yanks??there's some white and latino babbies there too!!!

 

[KombatMEDication]

Well, then I guess you probably don't know much about what happens to retarded and deformed children that live in poor households or are given up for adoption... I would never wish that life on my worst enemy, let alone a child.

um,actual,in my expirience most adopted children end up with very loving people to take care of them.and because i know,the government helps people with disabled children take care of all their needed medical expenses.disabled people get a social security check too.some of the only people who get it in this country that actualy deserve it.

 

[michael]

no perhaps you do.

what are you, in second grade? i guess next you'll just start repeating anything i say? i know you are but what am i?

 

[MethTheChef]

^Or not. Are you?

 

[DigitalDuality]

both of you stop it, now.

 

[kittyinthedark]

um,actual,in my expirience most adopted children end up with very loving people to take care of them.and because i know,the government helps people with disabled children take care of all their needed medical expenses.disabled people get a social security check too.some of the only people who get it in this country that actualy deserve it.

Well sure, if you're talking about the kids that *actually* get adopted, yeah, they have great families. Who would adopt a retarded child that didn't specifically want to do so? Not to mention the fact that adoptive parents are screened very carefully. But many "damaged" children spend their lives in and out of foster care and stuck with abusive or neglectful people that are doing it simply to get those government checks you talk about. Proper care for these children is INCREDIBLY expensive - I know, I have a fully retarded cousin - and plenty of them get horrendously sub-standard care.

check out this entry in a special ed teacher's blog

I think it is infinitely morally worse to doom a fetus to this future than to kill it before it even reaches self-awareness. I didn't ask to be born with the mental illness I have, and let me tell you, there are plenty of days I wish I was never born, and I have it amazingly fucking good compared to the children we're talking about.

 

[Zero the hero]

But many "damaged" children spend their lives in and out of foster care and stuck with abusive or neglectful people that are doing it simply to get those government checks you talk about.

But many "normal" kids go on to have the experiences you've mentioned? I'm just curious as to what you think gives YOU the right to say who should be allowed to live or bare children and who should be stopped from having kids or what life should be terminated? My mum was a brutal alcoholic; my mum drank and (most likely) smoked heavily while she was pregnant with me, at the time she was single and already had 4 kids she couldn't properly care for. I don't know, I turned out ok in the end and I'm pretty glad I'm here, not to mention that I think I had as much right at having a chance at life as you or anyone else did, no matter what my mum's circumstances were at the time she was pregnant with me. Bottom line is that I feel that choices of birth control and abortion, etc, should be made by the Women in question and no one else, period.

I think it is infinitely morally worse to doom a fetus to this future than to kill it before it even reaches self-awareness.

I know of more than one of what you'd probably reffer to as "damaged" kids that did it hard growing up, yet turned out to be a decent and productive members of society. These kids weren't automatically "doomed" to a shitty life. Unless you have a crystal ball that enables you to tell the future or you’re in possession of a time machine there's no way you can possibly tell how the lives of these "damaged" kids might turn out or what contributions they might make in the future.

 

[massive]

my mum drank and (most likely) smoked heavily while she was pregnant with me, at the time she was single and already had 4 kids she couldn't properly care for.

I'm sorry but having five kids is just selfish. If everybody on earth had five kids it would cause mass destruction of our delicate ecosystem in just a few generations.

Maybe in older times breeding like rabbits was acceptable due to higher mortality rates, but with todays levels its just not sustainable.

This is why china has enforced the one chiild policy to good effect, because they realise that over population leads to worse conditions for everyone.

 

[kittyinthedark]

Again, ZTH, the "potential" argument is useless. Yes, you have just as much a right to life as any, but so did every other egg your mother produced. What about them? Yes, you came out okay. I came out okay too, even though my mom was an alcoholic and smoker. But I feel that in the weight of overwhelming evidence that suggests that drug addicted, monetarily unprepared, and overburdened mothers cannot properly raise a child, certain changes need to be made. I don't believe that reproduction is a right. You and I will never agree. I think less of your mother for having had you. I think it's terribly heartless to have children that you cannot properly care for. Not that I'm saying *you* shouldn't be here - in fact, it's great that things *did* actually work out okay - but the fact is, the majority of the time, they don't. We always hear about the term "CYCLE of poverty." How exactly do you suppose that works?

And no, I don't feel that *I* should make that decision, but I believe the society that will carry the burden of those children's lives should make that decision. It would be society making that decision in the passage of laws in this regard.

 

[KombatMEDication]

I think it is infinitely morally worse to doom a fetus to this future than to kill it before it even reaches self-awareness. I didn't ask to be born with the mental illness I have, and let me tell you, there are plenty of days I wish I was never born, and I have it amazingly fucking good compared to the children we're talking about.

that's fuckin weak! this thread has turned way too stupid.i'm with Zero,my parents sucked,for a while,so i would have been better off never being born,until uh oh...life got better now i also have lived through some adversity.children are miracles,crackhead retard parents or not.you are judged on how you treat the least amongst you, the teacher who made that quote is a stupid bitch.i love being me,above all i was lucky enough to learn one of the greatest lessons in life...how very preacious it is.to all the other people out there with similar views...why don't you "take a closer look at yourself."

 

[KombatMEDication]

I know of more than one of what you'd probably reffer to as "damaged" kids that did it hard growing up, yet turned out to be a decent and productive members of society. These kids weren't automatically "doomed" to a shitty life. Unless you have a crystal ball that enables you to tell the future or you’re in possession of a time machine there's no way you can possibly tell how the lives of these "damaged" kids might turn out or what contributions they might make in the future.

exactly

 

[Infernal]

Since when was adversity not apart of the human experience? How many people do you really think are actually ready to have a child? I've never met one man that hasn't said that when he found out his partner was pregnant his asshole puckered tighter than Marine's haircut. If people wait til 'things are perfect' then there wouldn't be a child born ever.

 

[kittyinthedark]

No one's suggesting that we need to wait until things are perfect, but there are circumstances that are clearly horrible.

But I suppose you all think it's okay for crack whores to pump out as many welfare checks, oops, sorry, I mean children, as they want.

 

[Zero the hero]

Yes, you have just as much a right to life as any, but so did every other egg your mother produced. What about them?

They remained unfertilized and therefore are not considered a life? I don't understand what you’re asking here?

Yes, you came out okay. I came out okay too, even though my mom was an alcoholic and smoker. But I feel that in the weight of overwhelming evidence that suggests that drug addicted, monetarily unprepared, and overburdened mothers cannot properly raise a child, certain changes need to be made.

So does that mean that you think you're mum should have been forced to use contraception, sterilized or that you should have been aborted because of her lifestyle at the time she got pregnant with you?

I don't believe that reproduction is a right. You and I will never agree.

Nope, we won't, even though I agree with you that having children when you can't take care of them, when you're an alcoholic or a drug addict, when you're dirt poor and already have 10 kids, etc is wrong, I still believe that it's every human beings right to choose when it comes to reproduction no matter what the circumstances, even if I personally don't agree.

I think less of your mother for having had you.

Do you think less of your own mother for having had you? My mum might have been a drunk and a slut but at least she cared about me enough that she didn't abort me (which may have been about the only good thing she ever did).

I think it's terribly heartless to have children that you cannot properly care for.

Again, so do I, but I'll never agree that that's a right that should be taken away even though I agree with you 100%.

We always hear about the term "CYCLE of poverty."

We always hear about the "cycle of violence" or the "cycle of sexual abuse" as well. What do we do with people in families identified as suffering from these problems? Force them to use contraception? Sterilize them? Not to mention that can't you see that any such policy would automatically and unfairly target certain races? How would that come across? Such a policy could never be practiced fairly.

And no, I don't feel that *I* should make that decision, but I believe the society that will carry the burden of those children's lives should make that decision. It would be society making that decision in the passage of laws in this regard.

But you, being part of that society and having the right to vote for someone who would implement such laws means that you are part of making that decision, doesn’t it?

But I suppose you all think it's okay for crack whores to pump out as many welfare checks, oops, sorry, I mean children, as they want.

Yes I do because as human beings I feel that it is their right to do so, no matter haw distasteful I might find it...

 

[kittyinthedark]

They remained unfertilized and therefore are not considered a life? I don't understand what you’re asking here?

This comes back to the potential argument. If you start talking about potential, you have to talk about all the eggs that don't *happen* to get fertilized too. I keep trying to point out time and time again that you cannot use the "potential argument." Everyone keeps alluding back to it...

So does that mean that you think you're mum should have been forced to use contraception, sterilized or that you should have been aborted because of her lifestyle at the time she got pregnant with you?

I think my mother should have been forced to be on contraception while she was engaging in alcoholic/cig addict behavior. She, fortunately, quit smoking and drinking for her pregnancy with me, but if she hadn't, I can't say I would have a problem if they had aborted me. Through an odd situation, she didn't even know she was pregnant with me. She was at least a month or two along with me before she found out she was pregnant, and was doing plenty of damage during that time. I'm obscenely lucky to have come out without much more severe problems than I have. Because of situations like this, I feel it is totally irresponsible and morally reprehensible for women to just be allowed to get knocked up an pop out kids whenever.

Nope, we won't, even though I agree with you that having children when you can't take care of them, when you're an alcoholic or a drug addict, when you're dirt poor and already have 10 kids, etc is wrong, I still believe that it's every human beings right to choose when it comes to reproduction no matter what the circumstances, even if I personally don't agree.

And this is where I'm stuck. How can you possibly have that stance?!?!?! I understand people hating homosexuality or being racist or what have you as long as they don't act on it - it doesn't affect anyone else then - but to impose such a harsh reality on another human life, well, it just strikes me as very, very wrong.

Do you think less of your own mother for having had you? My mum might have been a drunk and a slut but at least she cared about me enough that she didn't abort me (which may have been about the only good thing she ever did).

Yes, I do think much less of her. I think it was completely irresponsible of her to continue engaging in potentially fetus-harming behavior while trying to get pregnant. I actually resent it, because I now know that some of that behavior may have caused a lot of the health problems I have now. I was born very early - only weighed three and a half pounds - and I have a slew of ridiculous and obscure health problems, many of which have been statistically linked to premature birth, which is very often caused by smoking and drinking during pregnancy.

We always hear about the "cycle of violence" or the "cycle of sexual abuse" as well. What do we do with people in families identified as suffering from these problems? Force them to use contraception? Sterilize them? Not to mention that can't you see that any such policy would automatically and unfairly target certain races? How would that come across? Such a policy could never be practiced fairly.

I say force them to use contraception until they can be proven to be able to provide a reasonably healthy household for a child. And how could it *possibly* unfairly target anyone? If you're holding everyone to the same criteria, only the people that don't meet the criteria would be affected. If that happened to contain people of more of one race than another, that would be completely coincidental. More white people commit white collar crime than black people. Does that mean we should only convict as many whites as blacks for it?

But you, being part of that society and having the right to vote for someone who would implement such laws means that you are part of making that decision, doesn’t it?

Of course it means I am *PART* of making that decision, but I am not the sole arbiter as you were suggesting.

Yes I do because as human beings I feel that it is their right to do so, no matter haw distasteful I might find it...

And we're back to square one. I'm all about rights, trust me, but only rights pertaining to OURSELVES. You go do whatever the fuck you want to your body and your life, but the second it starts affecting other people is where I draw the line. I think fucking up someone's life before it even starts is worse than anything else I could think of.

 

[KombatMEDication]

Everyone should stop fucking if they don't want kids and take Personal responsiblility if they choose to fuck someone. Also we all need to take responsiblility for our choices in life even the bad ones. That means take birth control and don't kill your own babies out of convenience(give me convenience or give me death, DK)

 

[Ozymandias0811]

Yes I do because as human beings I feel that it is their right to do so, no matter haw distasteful I might find it...

Isn't it also my right as a human being not to be forced to accept the consequences for their decisions?

See my post about the three choices. Why do you think so little of my rights and so much of theirs? Is it easier to ignore the gun to my head when I pay my taxes than when someone is forced to have a medical procedure? Shouldn't the person who acted irresponsibly suffer more than me?

Ozymandias