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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Mandatory abortion proposed in Holland

Infernal said:
However, I will never agree that it being forced is a good idea.
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I, too, oppose the initiation of force by the state. Can I assume then as a corollary that you also oppose the idea of the state forcing everyone else to provide for the offspring in question?

The reason I ask is because as I see it there are only three choices:

1 - Curtail (via force) the reproductive rights of those who cannot support their own progeny.

2 - Force the rest of society to care for said progeny through income redistribution.

3 - Be "forced" to watch said progeny starve in the streets.


Most Western societies have rejected choice three outright. Although it is clearly the best pick in terms of minimizing violence done by the state we collectively have decided that we cannot deal with the sight of street urchins and cannot stew them up Jonathan Swift style. This leaves only one and two. Most of the folks around here are (rightly) quick to criticize the inhumanity inherent in choice one but doing so without acknowledging the evil of choice two (and that the force employed by the state is *exactly* the same) is disingenuous at best.

Any sort of state requirement for abortion and sterilization is obviously wrong. But having lived under the state requirement to pay for the products of irresponsible procreation all my life I can't help but be sympathetic to the idea of spreading the burden around.
 
If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis...would you recommend that she have an abortion?










If your answer was yes, you just killed Beethoven. The woman was Beethoven's mother.

Abortion kills our future, ending the potential of each victim. People wish for a cure for cancer, it probably has been killed!



Just have the baby and give it up for an adoption or something. My mother would have aborted me if she listened to the doctors, they said i was going to be mentally retarded instead i have the IQ of a genius (test i took very young). I used to support abortion until i heard a few stories (and i am NOT easily swayed), just have the babies no matter what happens, if you truly cannot keep it there are people who would take care of these children. Even if you're born in a tribe in Africa and everyone is starving and dying, you should still have the baby. The second that sperm reaches the egg, it is considered a lifeform no matter what stage of pregnancy it's in. Every baby has the right to see the world, even if all it sees of the world is suffering, it still has a right to see it.
 
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realm - the "potential argument" does not work. That child *could* be the next Hitler, too. There are many women who simply cannot even have a healthy PREGNANCY let alone raise a healthy CHILD after it is born. I think it is far worse to put a fetus at such a disadvantage and then bring it into a world of even more disadvantage.

And by chance, what are your views on birth control, menstrual cycles, and masturbation? Because according to your logic, every cycle that doesn't result in a pregnancy, every masturbatory emission, and every egg prevented from budding because of birth control is tantamount to "killing our future" as you put it.
 
There has been debate about aborting babies of women who have problems with alcholism and drugs, which cause deformed babies. Not to mention women who have been convicted of child-abuse.

The only reason I read this post is my recent visit to Holland -- one of the most beautiful and progressive places I ever visited but: Holland has serious problems with certain minorities.

Certainly, before the forced abortion, the woman would have to go to court and justify her pregnency. Such is the case AFTER the baby is born in the USA, where "unfit" mothers' children are put up in foster homes where the children are often abused, neglected and unloved.

There are thousands of deformed, minority children available for adoption in the USA.

If you're NOT a vegatarian and you eat cows and pigs (which are slaughtered in less humane ways than abortion) then how can you object to aborting a baby that will just become a burden to society. Does a cow have any more right to life than a fetus?

I'd rather have a million abortions than another Beethoven -- as much as I like the Ninth Symphony, there has not been another Beethovan in classical music.

As long as there are doctors willing to perform abortions: let the karma be on them! (Recent article about doctors unwilling to perform lethal injection in a prison.)

Would that some African/Indian/Chinese/Islamic nations have more oportunities for abortion and contraception!
 
The really sad thing is that Oh King of Kings is that this entire debate need not even be happening. Versus the cost of a truly effective and cheap (or free if needed) day-after pill with cost of raising said children. I know it is a bit simplistic but give me a break.
 
so its ok to force someone to get an abortion, but illegal and immoral to not let a woman get an abortion, because its her body?
 
michael said:
i suspect you need to wear a helmet in every day life. you could, of course, try to prove me wrong...but your track record here speaks volumes.
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As does yours.
 
Zero the hero said:
Yeah, too bad "forced sterilizations" weren't law when your mum concieved...
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Actually, if you look at history, Canada, the US, Germany, many developed western nations had policies of forced sterilization from the beginnning of the century and on into the 60's.
 
realm said:
If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis...would you recommend that she have an abortion?










If your answer was yes, you just killed Beethoven. The woman was Beethoven's mother.

Abortion kills our future, ending the potential of each victim. People wish for a cure for cancer, it probably has been killed!



Just have the baby and give it up for an adoption or something. My mother would have aborted me if she listened to the doctors, they said i was going to be mentally retarded instead i have the IQ of a genius (test i took very young). I used to support abortion until i heard a few stories (and i am NOT easily swayed), just have the babies no matter what happens, if you truly cannot keep it there are people who would take care of these children. Even if you're born in a tribe in Africa and everyone is starving and dying, you should still have the baby. The second that sperm reaches the egg, it is considered a lifeform no matter what stage of pregnancy it's in. Every baby has the right to see the world, even if all it sees of the world is suffering, it still has a right to see it.
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.......and so what became of the retarded child again? I mean you know, since the other one was so important obviously the retarded one was just as important, right?
 
michael said:
i suspect you need to wear a helmet in every day life. you could, of course, try to prove me wrong...but your track record here speaks volumes.
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I remember a few months back there was a direct effort by mods to eradicate from CE&P ad-homs and other attacks on persons. Did this just fall by the wayside, or has it become to common place to police these days?

Seriously, that comment had absolutely nothing to add to the subject at hand.
 
kittyinthedark said:
realm - the "potential argument" does not work. That child *could* be the next Hitler, too. There are many women who simply cannot even have a healthy PREGNANCY let alone raise a healthy CHILD after it is born. I think it is far worse to put a fetus at such a disadvantage and then bring it into a world of even more disadvantage.

And by chance, what are your views on birth control, menstrual cycles, and masturbation? Because according to your logic, every cycle that doesn't result in a pregnancy, every masturbatory emission, and every egg prevented from budding because of birth control is tantamount to "killing our future" as you put it.
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Ok, the child could become the next Hitler, but that makes it ok to abort it if the mother has serious problems? If the mother can't have a healthy pregnancy and complications occur still does not constitute an abortion IMHO. My views on birth control, and masturbation are more liberal, considering birth control isn't as serious as having to get an abortion months into the pregnancy, i even support the morning after pill. And masturbation is fine, so is pulling out. All i'm saying is that if the sperm reaches the egg, to me it's already a baby. The Beethoven thing was just an example, any baby whether its anticipated to be born retarded, deformed or addicted to drugs should be given a chance.
 
realm said:
Ok, the child could become the next Hitler, but that makes it ok to abort it if the mother has serious problems?
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It doesn't make it any more or less justifiable than keeping the baby under the same logic is all I'm saying.

realm said:
If the mother can't have a healthy pregnancy and complications occur still does not constitute an abortion IMHO.
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So are you saying that women should be forced to carry and deliver babies even at devastating risk to their own health?? Or that drug addicted mothers should carry babies and doom them to a life of retardation, deformity, or worse? I suppose you answer that point later, but I'll come back to it.

realm said:
My views on birth control, and masturbation are more liberal, considering birth control isn't as serious as having to get an abortion months into the pregnancy, i even support the morning after pill. And masturbation is fine, so is pulling out. All i'm saying is that if the sperm reaches the egg, to me it's already a baby.
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Then you have an issue of conflicting logic. You can't use the "potential" argument and then be okay with birth control. Period. All I'm saying is that you have to review your argument, because logically, it does not stand. And the morning after pill can prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in the womb. According to what you *just* said, that is unacceptable because "to you, it's already a baby," so what do you actually believe?

realm said:
The Beethoven thing was just an example, any baby whether its anticipated to be born retarded, deformed or addicted to drugs should be given a chance.
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Well, then I guess you probably don't know much about what happens to retarded and deformed children that live in poor households or are given up for adoption... I would never wish that life on my worst enemy, let alone a child.
 
psychetool said:
Actually, you are right DD. It should never be forced. I think people should sign up (and would sign up in droves) to get sterilized for a $7,000 government check. Thats far less then they would end up paying out for a life on welfare/child services and all the other shit. Forced is definitly not the way to go.
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you for president
 
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