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Making conscious change to create a 'better' future.

yagecero

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Jan 5, 2011
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312
So, I thought I'd start a general thread about what the P&S crew think are the most important aspects of spirituality/philosophy (or more generally, the ideas discussed on this forum) to (hu)mankind, in regard to creating a 'better' future. 'Better', for me, means a world in which humans live harmoniously with the planet, keeping ourselves in check with the resources available to us now (there's no need to turn the clock back here), while taking into account equality, within a diverse multiplicity of perceptions, from a perspective of social justice.

If someone has another definition of 'better' to go with, I'd be happy for this thread to change tact, whenever an equally appropriate one arises.

What ideas, forms of spirituality, research, modes of thought, ways of being or, more simply, changes, do we need to integrate/make more prominent to create a more fair and just world for all forms of life?

And why?
 
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^I think that's an interesting point^

What is apparently important to the socially constructed family unit, supports an endless cycle of consumption. Through the mainstream 'media' and 'arts' we're bombarded with information from birth to the day we die that tells us to 'fall in love', get 'married' and 'have a family'. All of these ideas are interrelated with biological/emotional urges, but they also support the Neo-Liberal capitalist framework 100%. Work to make money at any cost, attract a mate, raise a family and consume. Rinse and repeat.

Consume for yourself, and then consume enough for your children to get a head start on the 'good life', where they can repeat the process with their children ad infinitum.

I know it's controversial, but I think the idea of the 'traditional family' is an enormous problem for humanity within the Neo-Liberal framework.
 
i think for starters, a new economic system would be nice.
capitalism will most likely fall apart and collapse into itself, leaving only the rich with the resources due to predicted futures,
and the poor to be left with whatever they can get their hands on.

making conscious decisions is the best way to make anything better.
hope is always necessary to be the guiding light, but a catalyst compliments with commitment and consistency.

i believe the change in ourselves will be the change in our species.
effecting the time and space of our reality which can shift our economic paradigm, then our code of ethics, societal norms,
family life, and our own lives.
now that's what i call a trickle-down.
 
I know i'll be unpopular with this idea but here goes:

Sex and sexuality. We're doing it wrong. Heterosexuality is nature's gold standard, anything else is a deviation and exposes the human mind to degeneration.. and it tends to spread like a mental virus once it gets a hold in a society, because that's what it is. Sex starts in the mind and ends in the mind. We spend far too much time releasing our energy too.. there is great benefit to moderating sexual frequency and using the energy for other purposes, but if release has to be done it should be done with a consenting partner of the opposite sex. Nature didn't design us for anything but that.

That won't sit well with many people in the modern era at all.. but sexuality in the 21st century has been dictated by pressures in the psychological establishment and social pressures coming from people with bias (their own sexual desires), and not from any real proper study into the human mind. It is therefore flawed understanding and not necessarily truth. There is no sin or guilt in any of this, this isn't a religious thing, it's just certain sexual practices aren't healthy to the mind and can lead to other external problems in a society at large.

Living in harmony with each other and the planet means going on what's immediately obvious to us, and that is sex/sexuality. It's why we're here, it's what we're for (procreation and fertilizing). Until we address it properly all other efforts are kinda in vain really because sex is central to our minds and is what motivates us in just about everything we do. We need a sexually healthy and mature culture where sex isn't perverted or commercialized but celebrated as a function of our existence, and done in a balanced way.

*prepares to be shot down*
 
I know i'll be unpopular with this idea but here goes:

Sex and sexuality. We're doing it wrong. Heterosexuality is nature's gold standard, anything else is a deviation and exposes the human mind to degeneration.. and it tends to spread like a mental virus once it gets a hold in a society, because that's what it is. Sex starts in the mind and ends in the mind. We spend far too much time releasing our energy too.. there is great benefit to moderating sexual frequency and using the energy for other purposes, but if release has to be done it should be done with a consenting partner of the opposite sex. Nature didn't design us for anything but that.

That won't sit well with many people in the modern era at all.. but sexuality in the 21st century has been dictated by pressures in the psychological establishment and social pressures coming from people with bias (their own sexual desires), and not from any real proper study into the human mind. It is therefore flawed understanding and not necessarily truth. There is no sin or guilt in any of this, this isn't a religious thing, it's just certain sexual practices aren't healthy to the mind and can lead to other external problems in a society at large.

Living in harmony with each other and the planet means going on what's immediately obvious to us, and that is sex/sexuality. It's why we're here, it's what we're for (procreation and fertilizing). Until we address it properly all other efforts are kinda in vain really because sex is central to our minds and is what motivates us in just about everything we do. We need a sexually healthy and mature culture where sex isn't perverted or commercialized but celebrated as a function of our existence, and done in a balanced way.

*prepares to be shot down*

Those be some strange thoughts, =SS=. You've completely stumped me regarding adverse (if you insist) sexual behaviours being a negative human trait. Care to explain further? Where do these thoughts originate?

Your suggestion appears homophobic to me (I could be reading it wrong, sure) and, in being so, doesn't really fit from a social justice perspective. I can't see anything unnatural about homosexuality or unusual (again, if you insist) sexual behaviours - how is it a bad thing when two consenting people engage in acts (they enjoy) that are a physical manifestation of their emotional connection?

I find your thought process bizarre TBH*.

We spend far too much time releasing our energy too.. there is great benefit to moderating sexual frequency and using the energy for other purposes...

^This could make for interesting discussion, but then you finish the sentence with:

...but if release has to be done it should be done with a consenting partner of the opposite sex.

which appears both naive and homophobic. I masturbate for release; I have sex to connect more deeply with anyone I'm with.


i think for starters, a new economic system would be nice.
capitalism will most likely fall apart and collapse into itself, leaving only the rich with the resources due to predicted futures,
and the poor to be left with whatever they can get their hands on.

making conscious decisions is the best way to make anything better.
hope is always necessary to be the guiding light, but a catalyst compliments with commitment and consistency.

i believe the change in ourselves will be the change in our species.
effecting the time and space of our reality which can shift our economic paradigm, then our code of ethics, societal norms,
family life, and our own lives.
now that's what i call a trickle-down.

I'm not sure that Capitalism (as a political discourse) itself is to blame for what is happening today (no more than communism was responsible for the "fall" of the Soviet Union), but I agree, what is happening today is bound to end in some form of disaster.

Neoliberalism, beginning with the Thatcher/Reagan era until present day western politics, has more to answer for than any other "movement" in our history.

"With all due respect to the drafters of the American Declaration of Independence, all men (and women) are not created equal, at least in regard to their characters, abilities and aptitudes. And if they were, their family and cultural backgrounds - not to mention the effect of mere chance - would soon change that. On one thing, nature and nurture agree: we are all different. If this is unjust, then life is unjust. But, though one hears this expression - usually in the form of the complaint that 'life is unfair' - it really means nothing. In the same vein, someone once said to Voltaire, 'Life is hard.' To which is replied: 'Compared with what?'"
--Margaret Thatcher.

Isn't Maggie beautiful?




*I feel stupid adding this (because it seems totally irrelevant to my identity), but since you seem so perturbed by homosexuality, I thought I better mention that I'm heterosexual.
 
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Your suggestion appears homophobic to me (I could be reading it wrong, sure) and, in being so, doesn't really fit from a social justice perspective. I can't see anything unnatural about homosexuality or unusual (again, if you insist) sexual behaviours - how is it a bad thing when two consenting people engage in acts (they enjoy) that are a physical manifestation of their emotional connection?

Nothing homophobic about it. I don't care what people do behind closed doors if it's consentual. I tried to get at the socially mandated 'homosexuality is normal' (masturbtion too) thing in my post; just because everyone votes it to be ok/normal and healthy does not mean it is so. Democratic voting in regards to psychological effects of something is not necessarily based in truth. Both masturbation and homosexuality are unnatural by virtue of the fact that sex is for procreation, and not for our sensual indulgence. That is just the hard truth. Nature doesn't care about 'social justice' or any of these human rationalizations that we put forward to justify our actions.. it only asks that we follow the plan, and the plan is procreation.

Having said that I honestly can't understand how anyone could fail to understand why homosexuality is unnatural both physiologically and biologically. Without the invention of lube it is pretty much not happening unless you want to seriously injure the other person and even if it does happen it's a genetic dead-end. I know we live in a time when you can't question this without being homophobic but this is just the truth, it has nothing to do with being homophobic. The facts just point to it being unnatural. Masturbation is perhaps less obvious but it's still unnatural too.

This thread is about what conscious choices we could make to get a better world. Well, as I said, we need to go with what is immediately apparent to us. Where else to start but with our bodies and our health/functioning? All the shit we're experiencing as a society now is a result of mankind going against nature, so I ask is it not a good place to start by doing what is asked of by nature instead of doing what we think is right/normal according to democratic vote? I know this suggestion will never fly in the real world because unfortunately sexual degeneracy is rife and has been deemed acceptable.

There's lots of other things we could do too besides a returning to a more natural sexuality, like not polluting our own environment for instance. The pollution feeds back into the food chain and thus affects us, hindering our physical and mental abilities. We could adopt better sleeping habits and adopt better lighting technology that better reflects the spectrum of the Sun (plasma lighting for example), as disturbance of sleep and false light spectrums again messes our physical and mental health up. Our water systems need to be re-examined, we currently drink sterile water which is dead (no vitality) because we treat water as an inert element instead of a living substance (re: Viktor Schauberger). Our food production and farming techniques need to be adjusted to produce food of quality rather than just aiming for quantity, as like a reduction in water quality this seriously damages our own health and vitality (thus hindering our ability to make better decisions).
 
Better for me would be finding one selfless and purely reasonable reason for humans to reproduce.
If not, humans ceasing to be stupid and selfish.

Having the ability to make the world better is the perfect reason to have a child. When they are born you have the perfect untainted vessel to hold and fill with love, the wonder for the beautiful, the desire to learn and question, and the ability to tackle and kick off both feet. You can then take them to the edge of the ocean and launch them into the future, therefore guaranteeing your own ideals being still alive when you die. Sure you can fuck it up, but if more people are able to get it right then the world grows for the better.
 
Bump*

But, Busty... I mean One Thousand Words, would your opinion be the same if you weren't a father?
 
If everyone tried to help each other this world will be a better place. If there was equal distribution of wealth then there won't be a classification of rich or poor people. This is if it is a perfect world which isn't.
 
SS, the aversion to sexual practices other than heterosexual gentital-to-genital contact between married people is a vestige of a bygone age where there were far more threats to people's lives, depopulation was a real possibility, and a new set of hands to help with the laborious tasks of low-tech farming was always a welcome thing.

The other "natural feeling" which goes along with this (and has outstayed its welcome) is the notion that it's every person's duty to sire children, and that those who choose not to are "selfish". Ever notice how heated an argument can arise, especially on the Internet, whenever someone tries to defend the choice of staying childless? This made perfect sense in pre-industrial agricultural societies -- barring a drought, the net gain in manpower from an extra set of hands to work the fields (or fishing boats) outweighed the cost of feeding another mouth. This stayed sort of true during the early industrial age too, when mining and manufacturing were less mechanized, and required far more human labor than they do today.

But nowadays, in the post-industrial world, anyone arguing that having children is a duty or obligation to society doesn't have a leg to stand on. The problem is that there's a lag between the values that get passed down in families and communities, and what is actually needed now. Simply put, in all but the most progressive circles, values reflect what was needed, but not necessarily what is needed currently. (If that's not an argument for liberal progressivism, I don't know what is, but meh, I digress.)

That said, SS, I think hidden in your argument is a deeper point that I agree with: generally speaking, taking sex lightly is dangerous to the fabric of society. To seek out sex with another person is an enormous act of trust, of making oneself vulnerable, and of power trading, that has the potential to forever change how the two people involved see and relate to each other. To a person who values stable, harmonious communities and societies, casual sex is outright dangerous, because it has the potential to create unbridgeable rifts between people (and families, by extension), that need to get along harmoniously. Notice I've said nothing about unwanted pregnancies or STDs -- I'm talking purely about the inherent powerful emotional and interpersonal effects of the sex act itself. Now, we could reach our hands deep into the chum bucket known as Evolutionary Psychology, and unravel the likely instinctual underpinnings of human feelings regarding sex that were conditioned by early adaptive environments... but let's not. I see no point in doing this, because it doesn't really shed any light or change how we approach sex. I don't think we need to dig any deeper than realizing that you're seldom ever more vulnerable, or more of a threat to another person, than when you're sexually intimate with them. From there, it should follow logically that sex is not something most people take lightly, or ever will.
 
If everyone tried to help each other this world will be a better place. If there was equal distribution of wealth then there won't be a classification of rich or poor people. This is if it is a perfect world which isn't.

Careful, Maya. It sounds like you're suggesting a non-corrupt form of socialism here ;) All jokes aside, I tend to agree with you, especially in regard to the current state of affairs being far from perfect. These are difficult questions, but I believe we do have the capacity to be compassionate, to think, and advance ourselves in a manner that would be of benefit for Earth and all of its inhabitants.

I guess I'm trying to stay positive.

The other "natural feeling" which goes along with this (and has outstayed its welcome) is the notion that it's every person's duty to sire children, and that those who choose not to are "selfish". Ever notice how heated an argument can arise, especially on the Internet, whenever someone tries to defend the choice of staying childless? This made perfect sense in pre-industrial agricultural societies -- barring a drought, the net gain in manpower from an extra set of hands to work the fields (or fishing boats) outweighed the cost of feeding another mouth. This stayed sort of true during the early industrial age too, when mining and manufacturing were less mechanized, and required far more human labor than they do today.

But nowadays, in the post-industrial world, anyone arguing that having children is a duty or obligation to society doesn't have a leg to stand on. The problem is that there's a lag between the values that get passed down in families and communities, and what is actually needed now. Simply put, in all but the most progressive circles, values reflect what was needed, but not necessarily what is needed currently.

QFT!
 
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Lol if only I can clone myself into billions this would definitely be a better place! Yes I think that compassion is what's lacking in humanity same with discipline. I still believe that money is the root of all evil and it is sad that this has been going on for centuries. Imagine a world without money and people have set of rules that are strictly followed where everyone contributed? Poverty will not exist.
 
I know i'll be unpopular with this idea but here goes:

Sex and sexuality. We're doing it wrong. Heterosexuality is nature's gold standard, anything else is a deviation and exposes the human mind to degeneration.. and it tends to spread like a mental virus once it gets a hold in a society, because that's what it is. Sex starts in the mind and ends in the mind. We spend far too much time releasing our energy too.. there is great benefit to moderating sexual frequency and using the energy for other purposes, but if release has to be done it should be done with a consenting partner of the opposite sex. Nature didn't design us for anything but that.

That won't sit well with many people in the modern era at all.. but sexuality in the 21st century has been dictated by pressures in the psychological establishment and social pressures coming from people with bias (their own sexual desires), and not from any real proper study into the human mind. It is therefore flawed understanding and not necessarily truth. There is no sin or guilt in any of this, this isn't a religious thing, it's just certain sexual practices aren't healthy to the mind and can lead to other external problems in a society at large.

Living in harmony with each other and the planet means going on what's immediately obvious to us, and that is sex/sexuality. It's why we're here, it's what we're for (procreation and fertilizing). Until we address it properly all other efforts are kinda in vain really because sex is central to our minds and is what motivates us in just about everything we do. We need a sexually healthy and mature culture where sex isn't perverted or commercialized but celebrated as a function of our existence, and done in a balanced way.

*prepares to be shot down*

I remember attending a counselling workshop once that was being held by a native woman from a First Nations support centre. On the white board she wrote many different things like abuse, gambling, addiction, etc... and then in the very middle she wrote "sexuality". She then went on to explain how one's sexuality is often the core motivator behind a lot of destructive or positive activities in one's life. There is some validity to what you say.

Where you and I diverge is on the issue of heterosexuality vs. homosexuality. I can't agree that heterosexuality is nature's "gold standard" and that homosexuality is a deviation from that. First of all, these terms are modern inventions. In most of the pre-modern world, sexuality was not defined by these labels and had a more fluid nature. People did not choose sexual identities, but rather adhered to filial duties. Furthermore, homosexual acts were accommodated in many cultures, without the demonization that is suffered today. For example, it was not uncommon for men to have sexually intimate relationships with one another, but then still fulfill their procreative duties by marrying women. Male-male sexual relationships were seen as important to the social order, and were something that women could not provide. Saying that heterosexuality is justifiably normal because it involves procreation completely alienates the social function that sexuality plays in a highly social and group-oriented species like humans.

When I lived in China, I had many men approach me seeking intimacy, but if I asked them if they were gay they would shun me. The reason is that in China "gay" is a western concept. As soon as you mention it, they think of colourful naked men dancing on floats in parades in the United States. The majority of adult men who have sex with men in China that I encountered were married to women. They were fulfilling their duty of having children but then did whatever they wanted on the side. In many ancient cultures, this was not a problem. No one cared who you were sleeping but it was taboo to not eventually have children.

So, while I agree with you that sexuality is core to a healthy world, my view is that we should do away with the labels and return to a more organic expression of our sexualities. Right now there are too many social rules about it, and arbitrary taboos that defy historical precedent. If I decide one day that I would like to be with a man, I should not have to then modify my identity as being gay or bi, because at some other point down the road I may decide to be with a woman too. And although I don't think men should be expected to sleep with each other if they don't want to, I do think that male sexuality is oppressed in the current order and there is a complete lack of mentorship. Men are not allowed to be sexually expressive around one another because it's "gay" and shameful. There should be NO shame around sexual expression. The shame is the problem, and causes the pathology.

IMO humans are just sexual, period, no labels required. The era before the Abrahamic faiths proves this to be true.
 
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^ I agree, I think labeling once sexually should be removed. I have never labeled myself even from before and I always say "I am a woman who is capable of loving a man or a woman."
 
Foreigner, I forget which one of those famous dead social critics with an acerbic wit said something like, "In any given culture, tell me the rules of who's allowed to have sex with whom in what situations, and I'll tell you everything else about that culture." I think this is a bit extreme, but there's definitely something to it. The human sex drive is a big thing that needs to be "managed", for lack of a better word, in order for people to come together harmoniously and efficaciously for collective projects that have nothing to do with sex.

Of course, if you're of the opinion that the future of sociology and social analysis is biology, then there is nothing humans do that has nothing to do with sex, and this whole discussion is a pointless detour. I am not one of these people, and this is not the audience I'm addressing primarily here. But even if you believe that the richness of the human condition and human culture does not reduce down neatly to base survival and reproduction drives, it pays to acknowledge just how powerful a force sex is socially. Definitely any change that's made to society will fail if it ends up leaving large numbers of people sexually unsatisfied.
 
The human sex drive is a big thing that needs to be "managed", for lack of a better word, in order for people to come together harmoniously and efficaciously for collective projects that have nothing to do with sex.

This is an interesting statement. Can you elaborate? It's a relationship I hadn't considered before.
 
^ Sure, dude. What I'm saying is that once most people finish puberty, their natural drive to seek out sexual experiences with other people cannot be ignored or repressed, only channeled. But every individual acting on every sexual whim that crosses their minds in every situation is fundamentally incompatible with society, period. A setup like that would quickly become an endless every-man-for-himself war, the Law of the Jungle. Therefore, all functional societies have traditions and institutions set up whose main purpose is to diffuse sexual frustration, that is, to ensure that as few people as possible are sexually frustrated enough to resort to behaviors that tear at the fabric of their communities.

I saw what you saw in China too, Foreigner. I've heard the same is true in the Arab world -- two unmarried young men who are close friends will often let their relationship become sexual, to varying degrees, behind closed doors, until one or both of them marry. As far as I understand this behavior is never spoken about at all, either when it's going on or afterwards, and neither between the two boys nor to anyone outside. This is to be expected, however, in a society where you date once and then marry young, and female premarital sex is completely unacceptable. I would guess this phenomenon is seen in India too.
 
We spend far too much time releasing our energy too.. there is great benefit to moderating sexual frequency and using the energy for other purposes

Some people claim this. It isn't like this for me. I seem to be at my best when I am slinging my seed without reservation
 
It's rather simple...
Peace in oneself will result in peace in the world.
But when I really thought about this I cried at the realisation that this was not possible for everyone to attain. Therefore no real hope.
Sexual orientation seems to be an issue here. I have become non sexual over time. I keep myself to myself. However I have 2 children and have lead a very adventurous sex life in my younger years, (god I make me sound old.) My wife hates my attitude towards sex but I am well over the act. Too much energy to expend for too little pay off.
 
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