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Lucifer's Fall...

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I know Islam contends that angels are without free will, but I was unaware Christianity held that position (pretty sure Judaism doesn't). Can you cite me the scriptural basis for this doctrine?



IIRC Satan (literally, the accuser or opposer) was first brought up in the book of Job and was merely held to be an angel by Judaism at this point. Associating Satan with serpent in the garden, and his being evil was something that came about around the turn of the millenium. The morning star (Lucifer) thing is from Isaiah 14:12, and was associated with Satan at some point. I dunno.

^^You're right Muslims believe that angels don't have a will of their own; their purpose is to conform and carry out the will of Allah.

I'm also unaware of any branch in Christianity that holds the idea of angels not having a free will. Though there are over 30,000 different sects of Protestants, many of which believe everything in existence is predetermined, so perhaps therefore angels would also have no free will of their own?

I know that Catholic theology teaches angels have their own free will.

May I ask you ninae the specific religion/faith you follow?
 
To answear some questions, if I identify with any religion I guess it would have to be Esoteric Christianity. It's quite an impressive and very complex philosophical system that allows you to think and know much further than regular Christianity. I'm thinking of what was taught by Peter Deunov, for instance, (I love "The Wellspring of Good", but it costs a fortune to buy, for some reason now - see if you can find a copy of it somewhere on the Net). And those teachers always say things like "The Lord of Darkness is the true Prince of this world", so I was wondering why someone who was so close to God and claimed to be in communication with angels every day would say something like that?

Now I guess I can see what they mean but I never suggested that people should WORSHIP Lucifer. It says God "gave him the geometry to create a reverse creation", i.e. the opposite of all God already had created that was supposed to have been all perfect and good, and implies it was the way imperfection came into this creation. When I suggested you "pray for him" I didn't mean so much out of sympathy for him, more because it would be good for the whole, and maybe for ourselves. But to do that you would have to be able to feel some genuine compassion (at least that's the way I understand prayer) for it to work. I don't find that easy if I think about the way he is NOW, but if you try to think of how he used to be and maybe will become again, it can be easier to feel some sympathy.

At least that way you can think the rebellion, etc. happened for some good purpose and not just for nothing. And I guess the idea of "jealousy of angels" could make sense if you think we were both given more freedom and the chance to ultimately become greater (by choosing what is good or Godlike for ourselves). They didn't like the idea that they, who had always been perfect and "of God", could be lesser. So it says it was both real, or one third of the angels followed him (I guess he couldn't do it alone), and an alibi for something more important.

I also feel I can receive some positive energy when I'm able to hold him (Lucifer) in my heart compassionately and pray for him, though I don't know for sure what's the source of that energy. It would make more sense to me if it came from some of the positive angels as a form of reward, or maybe you can connect with God or your own soul that way, I don't really know.

But I also felt some of what I call "demon attack" when I was publicizing these ideas (i.e. they can't hurt you physically, but sometimes I get this sensation like an invisible hand clutching my heart in an emotion/energy way and just become filled with this general sense of doom). So for some reason "they" didn't like that (yea, and I know how crazy this sounds) but also that kind of makes sense as I've discovered that directing positive energy towards them in some form seems to weaken them and that's the only weapon you can use. While if you try to attack them and use negative energy in some way, like to scare them, they're so much better than you at that so there's no point in even trying. At least that's how I perceive it and how I've been able to have some spiritual peace.

Anyway, everyone experiences these things their own way, so it's kind of hard to share very well. You can't say for sure that something is real just because it appeared so within yourself. But in this situation there's not much more you can do than pray, unfortunately. That is, if you want to help weaken the negative forces of Creation or contribute to that in some way. That was the only thing I really had in mind about it. And there are quite a few sources that explain it like this. Like I said, there has been a book written about it, and I found a forum with quotes from different sources saying the same thing:

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=689571

Where you can find someone who channels both God and Lucifer about it. What is supposed to be channeled from God really explains it best, but I'm not allowed to post so many quotes again. Well, I guess I can post these.


"When, by your growth as individuals, you, humanity who are My heart, and I chose to go forth together into a far deeper relationship, a being of greatest light came forth. "Let me hold them, God," he said. "Let me be the embodiment of their bravery. Let me be the strength of their encouragement. Let me keep them safe for you. Whatever they want me to be, I will be, yet it is for you that I volunteer this." And thus did I give you into Lucifer's keeping, star of the brightest heavens.

And yes, I knew the many possibilities, including the one that has occurred. Yet you must believe that I did not know the outcome, for I truly did give you your Will to make of yourselves whatever you believed. For I had willed to love you and to learn from you, My heart, by allowing you the Will to be our own individuality.

Yet when you decided to turn from Me completely and to believe in anti-Love -- how could this be handled? How could it even occur? For I Am Only Love. There is no place in Me where darkness can even exist! Yet this is what you chose. And Lucifer, who loved you so, said, "God, I will assist. I will create within my very being a place apart from you that your children may answer this question for themselves. Show me how, my beloved God, and of my very being we will create this. I shall wrap myself around them. I will keep them safe. I will make sure the golden cords of life are ever vibrant and alive in you so their golden selves shall not be lost. Yet if you will help me, I will create for them a space apart in which to live out this question of the possibility of anti-Love. Of darkness. Of all that is the opposite of truth."


I like those quotes and they sound as if they're from someone who has focused on it more deeply. And I can't really say this makes less sense than what I've heard from any other religion or philosophical system. I thought it might begin to clear up some of the mysteries of all the evil in a creation by a good God, etc.

I also think that's the only way something like this could have happened and be sustained, i.e. for a good reason. If you don't think God is as mindless and flawed as humans can be. So even the darkest he has created has a good reason to exist. We can't really compare God to ourselves so just because we can't make any sense of it, or hasn't been taught to, that doesn't really mean there couldn't be any.
 
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Ninae, I know you said we darker folks shouldn't chime in here but--

Study the lore of the Qlippoth, you just might get something out of it :) It's just the other half of the balance to the tree.
 
It is and it isn't complicated. If we take lucifer to be the bringer of light and the fact that christianity goes on about how lucifer is bad then it seems as though christianity is keen to keep the people in darkness. keep the truth away from them.
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I have other things to add to this, but I have to get them straight in my head. The wonder of the bible surviving so long. Really, well there were other texts that were likely destroyed. Apparantly if we go back before christianity to the old jews from back in the day it is said that they would make the singular plural, the plural singualr and the masculine feminine and the feminine masculine. So I suppose lucifer as the bringer of light has been made into the one of the dark side. It is all very tricksy to keep people in confusion and ignorance.

Do not worry or get trapped up in looking too deep into these things. Follow your own heart and your head. Also, the 1st reply with its particles, we see how the material world has these opposites too, it's a normal thing in all realms.

Hope I make sense. I am intrigued by the use of the word devil so much in America, like the biggest and scariest insult. Funny how there is only one name for god (or is there? the almighty, Lord, Jehovah etc) and there are so many words for the devil, lucifer, satan, beelzebub, the devil are they all the same. Let me also add that there are reinforcements of the singularity of the one god .

Think of the time that Jesus exorcised the demons from someone and a load of pigs ran over the cliff. He asked for it's name and the reply was "I am legion" meaning many. Does any one see this maybe as an elimination of polytheism? Look at how there are many demons, and only one god. If you have a polytheistic belief then that is evil and bad, believe in one god. If you can't get your head round that don't worry, because we have put three into one.
 
From what I remember of reading The Kabbalah, "The Qlippoth" are "The shells" or "Empty husks" that will be destroyed by the end of this creation if they still havn't been rehabilitated. I guess they are meant to have been given enough time to be ennobled or purified in the fire of the sufferings and challenges of human life. So I'm a bit unsure of the wisdom in that advice.

The way I understand it, Lucifer is supposed to be a light unwillingly trapped in matter, or now mostly trapped there by the ones he brought with him, or brought down in his fall, that might not have been as great of a consciousness, but were MANY so still hold power. Though I suppose for human beings it doesn't really make much difference what the identity of the source of evil in this creation is, but it can help give you some more spiritual faith, or not look at God's creation as so much of a failuere. But that "Tree of Life" is really the "Tree of Death" and contains everything that is the opposite of God, so I can't really see what would be so great about it.

Anyway, what I suggested was pretty much the opposite of that, and I think for those who are actually serious about these things it might be more appropriate to remind them to be careful because the Devil has the wisdom and power to make things appear as he'd like them to appear, etc. And I definitely agree with that. I was just saying how we might need to use the opposite weapon against him than the one we think.
 
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By the way, here you can find translations of some of his talks, but everything he said is worth reading:

http://www.beinsa-douno.net/lectures.html

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Peter Deunov
 
I don't personally pray TO him. I meant, maybe we should pray FOR him, if he's the one responsible for all the evil in our world? Instead of just trying to fight him.
 
I don't personally pray TO him. I meant, maybe we should pray FOR him, if he's the one responsible for all the evil in our world? Instead of just trying to fight him.

wouldn't this have been sufficient for the original post?
 
Mmmph. If you refuse to study the qlippoth, perhaps the gnostic gospels would be more up your alley. Not sure what else to recommend on this subject.
 
@OP PLEASE READ THIS

In my belief everything is one function organism - without duality. As everything in the cosmos the universe, our reality, our lives, all of nautre and animals and other plantets etc, is one organism. This organism is functional in its own right and aware of itself as a whole. It can communicate with the pieces of itself. This to me, is the Ultimate. God, if you will.

At some point in the fractal existance, it splits off into two halves - the creative and the destructive half. the creative half being the things that bring us love, blessings, light, happiness, healing, all good things. all parts of the fractal that are part of this work together for our benifit (example in the bible, "all things work toghther for those who..."). this is what christians call 'God'. this is what I call 'the light'.

then theres the destructive half, that brings us pain, despair, destorys things in our life - (which brings room for new creation), challenges, temptations, change. this is what Christians would call 'the devil', or 'lucifer'. this is what I call 'the darkness'.

Both of these forces work together to bring us to our destiny, to make us stronger and help us grow into more perfect beings.

--

important
Now first i am not sure if i believe in the devil, or evil, or whatever, but for some reason this resonates with me kind of:

Now - when it comes down to it - I would advise against you focusing on this darker half. be very very careful, you can be pulled into some weird thigns. Lucifer was called the 'light bearer'. To me this means he appears as an angel (as he was) and a beauitiful one, and comes bearing false fruits, and uses manipulation to get you to focus on him, but has alterior motives to destroy. now this is not nessicarily always a bad thing, sometimes there are times When we must go through times of destruction, and change. but be careful, i'd say let it happen naturally do not be tricked into it.

you can get hurt. i had a kind of scary experinace when kali revealed herself to me...and some very weird experiances with magick. i am safe (and blessed) because I prayed to God so much and God is good.

also you might think this is very very very interesting ;) http://www.ancientmartinistorder.org/readings/6.html
many blessings brother.
 
@MagickDuck, I'm just curious what your views are on the concept of the shadow as coined by Carl Jung. Sometimes going into what is evil to you, and the profane and the ugly, is part of a personal transformational process. Do you think it's possible for people to have a relationship with Lucifer, or Kali as you mentioned, that is ultimately chathartic and constructive?

I agree with you that the shadow can be consuming, and you can get lost in it. I'm just wondering... if sometimes that being lost is a necessary part of a person's development? You know the saying... you can't appreciate the light without the dark.

Or do you think that Lucifer is irredeemable and thus relating to him can only bring total obliteration of goodness?

I guess what I'm really getting at here is similar to what Ninae is asking: is downfall permanent?
 
I do not believe in Lucifer in the conventional sense as an angel who fell and cannot be redeamed. But simply as the destructive force of nature - the darker side of God.

I do not think Kali is a bad thing, just to me because I came out of a place of ego and fear she appeared terrifying.

All things have their place, and I believe that. I came out of my darkness a stronger and better person all around. I am more loving, caring, and understanding. I am still very fragile because of how intense all those experiances were (and would probably be diagnosed as schizophrenic) but I am healing at a good rate...

I will not ever focus on darkness again, however as it happened, I am sure it must have been nessicary for me to learn and grow.
 
Most religious teachings have been distorted, mainly for the purposes of control (I don't think there are many who are still unaware of that, of course).

Lucifer the Archangel was a brave volunteer. God allowed some souls to try the experiment of duality in order to experience creation in yet another important way. In order for duality to work, there must be someone to play the role of the dark, the tempter, the opposite, or whatever.

Lucifer, out of love, agreed to be sent to foster this program, which humanity on earth has been experience for thousands of years now (but which is also ending), while Archangel Michael agreed to remain in Heaven to foster those non-physical souls who were not partaking of the duality experiment.
 
Yes, I don't know if this is just some delusion of grandeur (induced by drugs), but I feel I have have been in some form of telepathic communication with Lucifer. In several ways, for one thing taking MXE, which I would always experience as very dysphoric, apart from one time when I felt I was in some kind of angel kingdom with my mother as a child, but I was quickly pulled down to a hellish state again.

What I mean by a "telepathic relationship" was feeling like I could ask any question about the Universe and our existance and get an immediate answer, which was very high-level and outlandish. But I would finally sometimes call it "communicating with the devil", because it was such a depressing, dark experience. It was like I would exclusively be focusing on the negative side of all things.

It was like usual when you're communicating with a spiritual being, it's like it's pouring its energy or consciousness into you when you turn towards it, and you can communicate with, or ask questions from this consciousness in a way. But it's kind of like you have to interpret it on your own, and a bit like something you would think of by yourself, but it's nothing like something you would think of and no natural reason for it.

His attitude was very cynical and condemning of Creation and the Divine. Kind of like, "Look, God is just playing with us like a fucking videogame and we have to suffer all this for him to have his fun". Which is really blasphemous in a way, when the Creation of a positive and negative reality would have been for a very good reason, to expand Creation like he has always been, without which we would neither exist or have anything.

Though this cycle of Creation is said to have been particularly risky, and only the most brave souls would volunteer for it. The majority of souls I'm sure prefer to live in permanent paradise and it was our own choice not to. I even once read some writing channeling Jesus say that many didn't volunteer, and now we were in the middle of it we might we wish that we never did, but now it's a bit too late. Though on the cross even he lost his faith for a moment and cried out "My God, why have you forsaken me?". But it was only for a short moment in the middle of the most intense suffering and it was the agreement for God to "forsake" him.

The Devil, on the other hand, would be completely without any faith and full of rage towards God, if he's to represent the negative polarity. Though I've also had times in a sober state when I've considered the possibility of as a lost great being of light, who was suffering greatly, and would return to his former greatness one day. And I experinced a kind of connection I can only describe as a form of light being poured into my soul, making me feel very blissful, and experienced it as a kind of verification.

I've also wondered about the myth of Lucifer and if it's the same as "The Devil" or ""Satan". I think there could easily be many "devils". Like I said, any greater spiritual being that was also very dark could be interpreted by a human soul as The Devil. But reading some of these ideas from several sources makes me wonder about it, especially as it was also expressed very intelligently and had a ring of truth to it. Not that untruth can't also be expressed very intelligently...but something coming in the form of truth tends to come in a different shape, and have a sense of love and humility to it.

Not that the ultimate Trickster wouldn't also know how to eliminate that...but then again something also has to be the truth. One way of confusing us is claiming that EVERYTHING is lies and superstition so there's no way to be sure of everything and people feel uncomfortable being associated with any belief. It takes some courage to choose to believe in something as "the truth", especially social courage, as you can't be too concerned about being humiliated.
 
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