Dissociatives Loss of magic / lasting side effects collection

[ecstacylover]

Yeah it's definitely frustrating talking to doctors about anything drug-related because although they know pharmacology at a broad level and what drugs are indicated for such-and-such, they aren't going to have many answers for anything which doesn't fit into a common diagnosis or show up on tests.

The last time I saw my GI doctor I mentioned that phenibut had been helping me and she didn't know what it was, so I was like "it's a calcium channel blocker similar to gabapentin" and she tried telling me that gabapentin doesn't block calcium channels and we argued back and forth about it until she went to her computer and looked it up and admitted she was wrong. Psychiatrists generally know more about neuropharm, but the simple truth is that unless someone is doing active research in the field. they aren't going to have many answers, especially with how often new data is coming in.

I guess for the record, I wouldn't encourage anyone use these drugs. From the side-effects I relayed I thought it was abundantly clear that abusing these drugs has serious risks, especially in the short-term. Which is why I brought up the link to schizophrenia, since it doesn't seem to be something most people in the disso community want to acknowledge.

But I also think that the "frying your brain" narrative is way too sensationalist. I spent two solid years on MXE and and then went back to school and almost knocked out a physics degree in a year and a half (didn't take optics and statistical mechanics), so I think the changes are reversible to some degree if you put in the work. Of course, I don't actually care about physics or pharmacology, I just studied them for hundreds of hours so I could sound smart when I'm talking to internet strangers.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

You can have 5 degrees and make science advance 0 inches and viceversa.

No doctor/psychiatrist cured my suicide depresion on 8 years taking his shit drugs. I got worst (venlafaxine is such a nasty molecule, needed 3 years to taper it off due to massive addiction and brain zaps)

After that, I cured myself just taking dissos and psychedelics in microdoses and with responsible care.

My last 10 yeras has been the best of my life. So, I can tell you that my "bro" science is > than the doctors one.

Also, this forum helped a lot.

I wont feed the troll anymore, by the way.

Bye

 

[December Flower]

But I also think that the "frying your brain" narrative is way too sensationalist. I spent two solid years on MXE and and then went back to school and almost knocked out a physics degree in a year and a half (didn't take optics and statistical mechanics), so I think the changes are reversible to some degree if you put in the work. Of course, I don't actually care about physics or pharmacology, I just studied them for hundreds of hours so I could sound smart when I'm talking to internet strangers.

Try working in a psychiatric clinic, you'll find shitloads of people who got brainfucked by (usually) Amphetamine/Psychedelics or Dissos.
Not having any damage from this behaviour is certainly a possibility, but not as often as you might think. You can't say "I wasn't damaged permanently" and assume nobody was damaged permanently.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Try working in a psychiatric clinic, you'll find shitloads of people who got brainfucked by (usually) Amphetamine/Psychedelics or Dissos.

Psych ward is a snapshot, until you're the doc there you'll never know the individual outcomes. And I'd bet money for that I personally could come up with better treatments for some of the substace induced problems they're facing there. Just giving antipsychotics is too easy and too damaging. Yeah, I know of people with "endless trips" and such phenomenon, also that most of that can be directly attributed to the WoD and what the world did and does because of it. The remaining cases are which the docs should be intensively studying, not by throwing random meds at them, but intensively as in MRI imaginery etc. I've spent enough time (more or less voluntarily) in such wards to be able to say that, and I didn't meet a single individual whose problems came directly, and exclusively, from psychedelics or dissociatives. The drugs of culprit nowadays are marijuana(!), crack/cocaine, H/opioids, GHB/GBL/alcohol/benzos. I write nowadays because I know that my impression too is based on snapshots. I mention marijuana first because I fear that the current legalization movement might indeed cause some more harm because we'll still have to find out the relation between cannabis and mental health. Many undoubtly get much benefit out of it but there is a fraction of people who don't tolerate it, who get lasting psychotomimetic features from its use [note that I still have to more investigate this topic, it's entirely possible that it;s exactly the same individuals whose psychosis doesn't respond to antipsychs but maybe to psychedelics - for which so far to my knowledge is no real scientific data that they could cause anything like schizophrenia, it was all the media.] Also, yeah, the link between dissos and schizophrenia but my hunch is that in this case the animal model doesn't really fit/work. Or it's linked to THC psychosis - cannabinoid receptors modulate NMDA activity, among others.

 

[December Flower]

Psych ward is a snapshot, until you're the doc there you'll never know the individual outcomes. And I'd bet money for that I personally could come up with better treatments for some of the substace induced problems they're facing there. Just giving antipsychotics is too easy and too damaging. Yeah, I know of people with "endless trips" and such phenomenon, also that most of that can be directly attributed to the WoD and what the world did and does because of it. The remaining cases are which the docs should be intensively studying, not by throwing random meds at them, but intensively as in MRI imaginery etc.

You lost me at Workout of the Day?

Also there is such a thing as medication-free treatment. The choice is usually up to the patient, at least here.

 

[plumbus-nine]

War on Drugs.
Yeah, good luck finding the medication-free psych ward. People who are put in against their will can't, or usually don't choice a treatment w/o meds. Also in some cases some carefully chosen meds/treatments (which partially either aren't practiced in the ward you didn't choose, or not available to the public on a strictly-Rx-only-basis) are indeed helpful, while in the same or in other cases antipsychs can and do really fry part of the mind - permanently.

 

[December Flower]

War on Drugs.
Yeah, good luck finding the medication-free psych ward. People who are put in against their will can't, or usually don't choice a treatment w/o meds. Also in some cases some carefully chosen meds/treatments (which partially either aren't practiced in the ward you didn't choose, or not available to the public on a strictly-Rx-only-basis) are indeed helpful, while in the same or in other cases antipsychs can and do really fry part of the mind - permanently.

If you're not a danger to others, you absolutely have the choice here.
If you are a danger to others, you gotta suck it up - the people come before one person
If you're incoherent, your family decides

Even our standard psych wards in hospitals have medication free therapy/programs.
You can do gardening and art, and a bunch of nice stuff actually, as a form of therapy.

I don't know how it is in Mexico, I live in Germany.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Even our standard psych wards in hospitals have medication free therapy/programs.
You can do gardening and art, and a bunch of nice stuff actually, as a form of therapy.

I don't know how it is in Mexico, I live in Germany.

I'm not from Mexico, but living there atm because the system in Europe (which I value btw, there are certain things they make right, also others they make wrong, but that's another topic) forced me so - not because of penalty but money. I lost all my savingsm a six figure number, to the fucking health insurance, and because I voluntarily seeked for help. Social workers messed up, patient administeration messed up, no excuse, nothing. Maybe thankfully never been to the ward in Mexico (though based on the stories I hear and the personal impression from visiting as outpatient give me the impression that the difference isn't that huge), and will avoid it as most - yeah, not all - visits have been voluntarily, my belief in doctors and the good in humanity was still strong until recent years where I finally faced the truth, that people are just people and everybody makes mistakes everyday, like I do. But as coincidence wants, I have been so in Germany, in different regions and clinics, most of which were among the worst experiences of my lifetime. Jena was university clinic btw. No, you don't have the choice, and the average inpatient doesn't do gardening or nice stuff. 'Art', yeah. Yes, the programs are medication free - the people are forced to take the pills before, and after. I've personally seen a ward where more than 10 out of 16 patients were sleeping most daytime and nighttime, and I counted 18 pills just for the evening with one individual. The absence of tardive dyskinesia is impressive nowadays, they make some progress but it pales in comparison to what's possible in theory and practice. Yet it's still out how these people will be and feel in their 60s.

 

[December Flower]

I'm not from Mexico, but living there atm because the system in Europe (which I value btw, there are certain things they make right, also others they make wrong, but that's another topic) forced me so - not because of penalty but money. I lost all my savingsm a six figure number, to the fucking health insurance, and because I voluntarily seeked for help. Social workers messed up, patient administeration messed up, no excuse, nothing. Maybe thankfully never been to the ward in Mexico (though based on the stories I hear and the personal impression from visiting as outpatient give me the impression that the difference isn't that huge), and will avoid it as most - yeah, not all - visits have been voluntarily, my belief in doctors and the good in humanity was still strong until recent years where I finally faced the truth, that people are just people and everybody makes mistakes everyday, like I do. But as coincidence wants, I have been so in Germany, in different regions and clinics, most of which were among the worst experiences of my lifetime. Jena was university clinic btw. No, you don't have the choice, and the average inpatient doesn't do gardening or nice stuff. 'Art', yeah. Yes, the programs are medication free - the people are forced to take the pills before, and after. I've personally seen a ward where more than 10 out of 16 patients were sleeping most daytime and nighttime, and I counted 18 pills just for the evening with one individual. The absence of tardive dyskinesia is impressive nowadays, they make some progress but it pales in comparison to what's possible in theory and practice. Yet it's still out how these people will be and feel in their 60s.

Then you haven't informed yourself about your rights. Nobody can actually force you to take anything.
That's your right. And if you protest your right, nobody can tell you to.

I don't know about your specific case, but if you were stable, not a danger to others, and coherent, you could have protested your rights and not taken anything. And there's always clinics like in Schongau, that focus on completely medication-free treatment.

 

[telepathetic]

Then you haven't informed yourself about your rights. Nobody can actually force you to take anything.
That's your right. And if you protest your right, nobody can tell you to.

I don't know about your specific case, but if you were stable, not a danger to others, and coherent, you could have protested your rights and not taken anything. And there's always clinics like in Schongau, that focus on completely medication-free treatment.

Nonsense. Here in the USA they will hold you down and inject you if you refuse meds inpatient.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Then you haven't informed yourself about your rights. Nobody can actually force you to take anything.
That's your right. And if you protest your right, nobody can tell you to.

Good luck protesting in a psych ward.

You can theoretically refuse meds in Europe, as long as they don't interpret you or your behavior before and during 'inspection' as relevantly 'anomal' - I leave the definition and interpretation of these terms open for now - but you'll need superhuman mindpower to be able to make use of this right, because of said limitation. Almost anybody will show some sort of resistance when being arrested / put / kept into mental health ward against will or being offended by certain treatments there, specially when altered states, substance use are involved. Remember that entering voluntarily doesn't necessarily mean they'll let you go at any time, and if not, they can and will use some degree of force to make you take the pills.

But I was asking some defined questions about longer term dissociative use and you don't seem to be one of the addressed users, so why do you bother to attack me?

 

[JackARoe]

But I was asking some defined questions about longer term dissociative use...

Lately I have been reading all the threads on dissociative tolerance and honestly although it is not a class of drug I like I am interested in all things that affect the mind. Growing up PCP was all around and I remember needing to get our mushrooms from people in the know as regular store bought mushrooms were sprayed with PCP and sold to unknowing people. Basially growing up we tried to not get PCP instead of real mshrooms or acid or the funny one "crystal tea". What is real crystal tea? It was PCP not synthetic THC. So the stuff was all over and it was to be steered clear of and thought of as inferior. That went on until the 80's. and then more and more genuine stuff was around and PCP faded into the background.

But the topic of long term use and tolerance should be discussed. In the other thread the one guy was commenting on needing double the ketamine to feel half as good as a month ago. Can we even call that tolerance? Tolerance does have some parts to it, but I always thought one of them was backing off a drug to get it to work better down the road. Yet with dissociatives we have people snorting half gram lines and not feeling it. I felt the stuff on 75-150 mgs IM with a bottle of ketaset. I can't imagine getting such a tolerance. Then again I only did it about a dozen times before I lost interest.

I wish i could give you more info plumus but I think experienced users are the only info. Maybe years from now we will not call it tolerance anymore when it comes to dissociatives. Although a similar phenomenon happens with benzos. Someone takes a handful of xanax and then that is the baseline for a long time. (don't do that lol) Although I do see benzo users say the tolerance goes down. But some people still get nothing from ketamine no matter how much they use. I would love to know the mechanism of how that works.

 

[December Flower]

Good luck protesting in a psych ward.

You can theoretically refuse meds in Europe, as long as they don't interpret you or your behavior before and during 'inspection' as relevantly 'anomal' - I leave the definition and interpretation of these terms open for now - but you'll need superhuman mindpower to be able to make use of this right, because of said limitation. Almost anybody will show some sort of resistance when being arrested / put / kept into mental health ward against will or being offended by certain treatments there, specially when altered states, substance use are involved. Remember that entering voluntarily doesn't necessarily mean they'll let you go at any time, and if not, they can and will use some degree of force to make you take the pills.

But I was asking some defined questions about longer term dissociative use and you don't seem to be one of the addressed users, so why do you bother to attack me?

Oh, see, that's the issue I have talking to non-Autists. I was not attacking you, I simply stated that words like "experiment" "scientific" or "theory", and the entire spectrum of scientific bla bla about drugs have no meaning coming from a recreational drug user, because all "findings" are going to be corrupted by the drug experience and the psyche getting addicted to said experience. It's a giant non sequitur, the findings are utter bullshit. Absolutely not attacking you personally, you weren't even the person I was talking to, you're just looking for help. I was more or less talking to the person who effectively told you to keep going. I often see that NTs are very proud of their intelligence and dumb shit like that, their looks, and whatnod, so maybe "you're not a scientist" is evil to say. If so, I apologize, but I don't understand what was bad about it. It was just a statement of fact. The dude couldn't write gabapentinoid or ecstasy for that matter, but gives you half a book of 'scientific' jibberjabber. How can anyone trust a single word of that? That was my point, broken down to the essentials Stop telling people to take drugs, when you're uneducated and your knowledge derives from the internet. OK? Sorry you feel attacked by that

Sure you're reckless for going this far with Dissociatives, but I think you know that, and I hope you won't "find the magic" ever again. For your sake. I really hope you get better, and you will find the help you need, not necessarily the help you want.

 

[plumbus-nine]

You are attacking me by jeoparding a thread where I simply asked some specific questions respective was looking for people having had such experiences. Most of them were quickly formulated, in a general way, only the voice thought phenomenon did I textually relate to me. Hey dude, I am not really arguing, but you are judging. You don't know me. You don't know how I deal with life or sobriety, what experiences I had, what treatments I tried or am taking, etc.pp. This is not about autie or not, it's that you are judging me and don't tolerate the slightest backfire.

You literally wish I would get put into a psych ward, or at least you implicate that somebody else should force his will upon my own, and that I'll stay in a non-optimal mindset forever. This is a fucking attack.

But the topic of long term use and tolerance should be discussed. In the other thread the one guy was commenting on needing double the ketamine to feel half as good as a month ago. Can we even call that tolerance? Tolerance does have some parts to it, but I always thought one of them was backing off a drug to get it to work better down the road. Yet with dissociatives we have people snorting half gram lines and not feeling it. I felt the stuff on 75-150 mgs IM with a bottle of ketaset. I can't imagine getting such a tolerance. Then again I only did it about a dozen times before I lost interest.

Yeah there's absolutely a need for.
I'm very interested in collecting more evidence about, but unfortunately my attention span doesn't exactly aid me with this so I've been postponing somewhat. The guy who write the DXM faq did an impressive work specially given its time, this was with internet mailboxes, not google and wikipedia.. Every now and then I stumble upon a shining report, yet usually about an acute trip and not in retrospective. Erowid has a handful things but nothing recent afaik. The perfectionist I am when it's about work I do, I see it will be a lot of work, but primarily there are so few high quality reports about longer term consequences and use. I'll need go hunting for them probably, and if somebody reads this who already wrote some sum-up, I'd be happy about just a link, no need to copy/re-write/emend anything. Good and bad reports are welcome, the focus is on long-term, nothing else.

Disso tolerance is weird. Some have sky high tolerance but are functioning completely normal. Others have short-term issues which resolve with time, some report lasting issues but it's hard to separate mental from neurological factors without access to a MRI and a decent population sample.. Tolerance doesn't mean issues and the other way round. Even with DXM they spoke about a 50 trip limit but it seemed to be also age-relevant, so many factors.

 

[December Flower]

You are attacking me by jeoparding a thread where I simply asked some specific questions respective was looking for people having had such experiences. Most of them were quickly formulated, in a general way, only the voice thought phenomenon did I textually relate to me. Hey dude, I am not really arguing, but you are judging. You don't know me. You don't know how I deal with life or sobriety, what experiences I had, what treatments I tried or am taking, etc.pp. This is not about autie or not, it's that you are judging me and don't tolerate the slightest backfire.

You literally wish I would get put into a psych ward, or at least you implicate that somebody else should force his will upon my own, and that I'll stay in a non-optimal mindset forever. This is a fucking attack.

? What?

I'm neither judging nor arguing. I'm very confused now.
I was never talking to you directly until you grew..angry? but that's just a guess.. I think you're angry?
I wasn't even talking to you indirectly.
I'm just saying it's not science to take a shitload of drugs.
That's not judging, it's just not science for fuck's sake.

The last part? I don't even know what to type at that?
Where did I say that? I said I hope you get better, and that you won't keep on taking so many drugs.
I also stated that medication-free treatment is where it's at, in my eyes.
I'm confused. You're confusing.
You can twist and turn everything I say to make it fit better to what you're expecting me to say.
I'm Autistic, and I cannot understand all your human-to-human crap. I've been called "not a scientist", and I didn't get angry.
I'm still confused.

I wasn't trying to jeopardise anything, apparently it was very easy to jeopardise then
If the statement "You guys are not scientists" is too much for you emotionally,
I will note that, and never call someone not a scientist again.
Although I still think it's redonculous.
And aren't you jeopardising it yourself by talking to the weird Autistic kid commenting on the thread?
See, I cannot not answer you, it will bug me for days and days and days if I do not answer you as soon as I can.
I would have posted once, if you hadn't answered

 

[2C-T]

You guys use drugs recreationally, that's it.
You're not scientists about to discover the secrets of life, just fucking cut it out already. If anything could be learned through LSD ppl would have done so, a thousand years ago. Same goes for dissos, empathogens, opioids. Many are medicines, and their scientific value has already been discovered. Nobody needs you to "test it out further", you just want to take drugs.

Sounds a lot like Nixon who said the hippies were just 'acting like complete fools', whilst they were busy stopping the Vietnam war, connecting in loving ways to each other as opposed to fighting a civil way, and they invented the dip dye shirts who are still a widespread commodity to this day.

 

[December Flower]

OK it's not truth time.
So you don't want to just take drugs, and you're all quantum scientists of space and time. Happy? ffs

With a doctor.
And a nice hat.
A coat.
I don't know what the fuck you want.

Yes, I am Nixon and people taking drugs are stopping the Vietnam war, you got me? What in the name have I done? I can't wrap my mind around it, and nobody is providing any help. You just want to be called scientists, I don't know. I've been in your shoes, thinking I'm about to discover the world through Mescaline, turns out it's all Ouroboros. Big whoop.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

Mate, first of all, read the room. Secondly, we like to take drugs. As far as I can tell from everything that's been said in this thread, it has all been reasonable. Literally the only thing that you could call a mistake is not pointing out that not taking any dissos is probably the better option. Apart from that the info was good and inviting to more discussion.
You are looking way too deep into this, it feels like a burst of frustration due to reading previous threads or something.

 

[December Flower]

I'm not able to read digital rooms, I apologize. I require facial expression and tone.
There's no "probably" the better option, but I'm withdrawing from this thread.
I will not be able to understand it any further, it seems.

"Never call people not scientists" has been added to my list of social norms I'm really sorry, I didn't want to say anything bad, or derail anything, I was just worried about OP tbh, because he/she wants to take more, and already has difficulty achieving a pleasurable experience, which can be a potentially very dangerous situation.

I find it a bit amoral & weird to give tips and tricks in destroying oneself.

 

[telepathetic]

Hmm "Naltrexone potentiates psychotomimetic effects of a low dose of ketamine"
https://www.nature.com/articles/1300994