Oxide
Bluelight Crew
pretty damn low, ~30mg of hydrocodone.
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OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Opioids Loperamide (Immodium) Megathread: We have now lost at least 2 of our own from Lope
- Thread starter Mr.Scagnattie
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pretty damn low, ~30mg of hydrocodone.
Dang how the fuck did you keep you're tolerance that low while dependent. I'm jealous as fuck, that was my nodding dose when I was opioid naive.
Does anyone know if lope will make me test positive for opiates?
Snakevillon
Bluelighter
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- Dec 20, 2013
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No^^ and idon't care but I'm sure someone is about to bitch about no drug testing Qs
StaffWriter
Bluelighter
Pills A Go-Go was an awesome book. I think the part about the Duragesic Patch was a bit overly dramatic. Still a badass book. Thanks for the history behind it! Had no idea it came from mag in Seattle.
happydaysover
Greenlighter
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Hi, I've been thinking about you and wondering how you are doing. You haven't posted anything for a little while. Are you still in hospital? I really hope you are getting better.
Its a little embarassing to admit but i have had a 60mg/day habit for a couple years now. I imagine that like most people simarly dependent, the loperamide habit emerged after it was employed as a means of reducing the withdrawal symptoms from a previous opioid dependency.
The excessive dose however is largely the result of its dirt cheap availability made possible by a large unnamed membership shopping chain ($7 for 400 caplets). Sufficient experience with this stuff has shown however that brand immodium is quite a bit stronger, but pricing is on the generic's side.
Withdrawal from high dose immodium is relatively severe, yet while wildy incapaciting as the withdrawal may be, it lacks the horror and agony of a true narcotic withdrawal.
But given the price and availability, its far too convenient to be inconvenienced with it discontinue.
I will stop it however, since its making me feel like a mini-junky over something that doesnt produce a reward.
Of course pass the 100mg mark it begins to have clearly central effects - subjectively akin to a really dirty feeling meperidine like buzz (meperidine in its pure form is already a "dirty" opioid).
The excessive dose however is largely the result of its dirt cheap availability made possible by a large unnamed membership shopping chain ($7 for 400 caplets). Sufficient experience with this stuff has shown however that brand immodium is quite a bit stronger, but pricing is on the generic's side.
Withdrawal from high dose immodium is relatively severe, yet while wildy incapaciting as the withdrawal may be, it lacks the horror and agony of a true narcotic withdrawal.
But given the price and availability, its far too convenient to be inconvenienced with it discontinue.
I will stop it however, since its making me feel like a mini-junky over something that doesnt produce a reward.
Of course pass the 100mg mark it begins to have clearly central effects - subjectively akin to a really dirty feeling meperidine like buzz (meperidine in its pure form is already a "dirty" opioid).
Whosajiggawaaa
Bluelighter
^IV meperidine was my first and favourite opiod.
I prefer lope to bupe infinitely for a myriad reasons.
and def catch a buzz too. at around that mark or slightly below. but it's not the best buzz in the world. Being not in withdrawal and feeling good for something u can buy otc is good in my books.
I prefer lope to bupe infinitely for a myriad reasons.
and def catch a buzz too. at around that mark or slightly below. but it's not the best buzz in the world. Being not in withdrawal and feeling good for something u can buy otc is good in my books.
Timland
Bluelighter
This is particulary frightening for me. I saw mentions of that paper elsewhere maybe ophile not sure.
I have been maintaining with a three digit figure mg with Lope for going on 2.5 years now. But stuff like this makes me stay awake at night thinking.
Withdrawal from it is god awful.. it is worse than pods ime.
I have even gone through precipitated withdrawal... I once took NALTREXONE a couple days after taking pods to loosen my bowels, not aware it was also CNS active... it was mentally and physically the worst 20-24 hours of my life.
But physically, Lope WD is magnitudes worse than THAT for me.
I do have an end game in mind eventually.. to taper it... maybe a personal goal to get down to 10-25mg and maintain on that for life.
But short of total elimination of the DEA and FDA with the result of a laissez-faire up or down drug market where all the massive inflation of opioids' $ value is deflated back to where it was prior to the Food and Cosmetics Act, Controlled Substances Act, UN Convention of Psychotropic Substances, etc thus being able to buy 100 kilograms of morphine for less than it costs to buy beer [like it was in the US prior to the 1920s - even Diamorphine cost less than beer] I can't fathom discontinuing Loperamide. And I suppose an NMDA drug will be needed too if I ever transition away from Lope since.. this is ancedotal.. it feels very dissocative at times.
Back when one could walk down to the mercantile store and buy soothing syrups (122-220mg morphine citrate per tablespoon) or purchasing Hunt's Remedy Laudanum (15-20 grains standardized opium alkaloids per part EtOh) from Sears-Roebuck... one can dream.
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happydaysover
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Hi Timland. If that frightens you have you read my posts on previous pages ? It was your previous post about a senators son possibly taking it and dying that prompted me to tell my sons story. Loperamide is far more dangerous than most people think. My son used it three times in five days ( his first ever use of it) and we his parents found him dead two hours after he said he was really tired. He was only nineteen..
Seriously if I was you I would be getting my heart checked out....
StartedHydro
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I'm curious to this... Why is it that loper is portrayed as being "way more constapating" than other opioids? You hardly hear people say dude, your taking 200 mg of Oxy, morphine, dillies, methadone your never going to poop, but as soon as loper is mentioned even in 30 mg range it's like your never going to poop again.
I always find that kinda funny. I go number two just fine regardless of the opioid or dose. I know that's just me in that regard, but opioids are opioids they all affect the gut.
I always find that kinda funny. I go number two just fine regardless of the opioid or dose. I know that's just me in that regard, but opioids are opioids they all affect the gut.
sekio
Bluelight Crew
It's probably a silly meme. However - loperamide is pretty good at stopping bowel motility; the prescribed dose is something like 2-4 mg. And there's no getting around the fact that most of its effects are gut-oriented, even if some sneaks into the brain. With morphine, oxycodone, etc, proportionally more of the drug will bind to and activate central opioid receptors rather than peripheral ones.
Like most opioid effects, tolerance builds to the motility-decreasing effects of opioids with high or continuous dosing. Hence the liqui-shits in withdrawals for some.
Timland
Bluelighter
Sorry to hear that, having read them I can't help but think that respiratory failure, ie, classic opioid overdose, was probably the cause moreso than QTc interval / cardiovascular failure -- even if he did not take any other potentiators - feeling very tired and going to sleep after taking an opioid and passing away strikes me as an opioid overdose - which afaik manifests when the body cannot breathe on its own resulting in hypoxia, etc.
Of course it could've been cardiovascular, or even both.
Anything that is a CNS µ-opioid agonist [even only at higher doses] runs the unfortunate risk of causing one, especially a first timer, to stop breathing and, if not treated in time with naloxone IV, pass away.
Thanks for sharing your info.
How long do you all find it effective during withdrawal? I took only 10mg last night and its been about 16 hours and I can slowly feeling w/d symptoms creeping up again. I'm a daily user of kratom about 15-20g a day if that helps.
Timland
Bluelighter
For me, its effective for physical maintenance (ie, stopping withdrawal and staying out of it) with 100% relief of PNS symptoms relating to acute opioid withdrawal syndrome. But Loperamide also presents many unpleasant PNS side effects for me that I do not experience with other opioids. Such as restriction of eye movement and various muscle issues that some describe as Parkinsonian [only when on Loperamide in extreme doses] and a drastic reduction in physical dexterity and overall agility [for me] when fully loaded.
I wish 10mg gave me relief, consider yourself lucky even if it wears off after 16 hours.
Just make sure to take Miralax or generic equivalent 2-3 hours after taking Lope and before eating a large meal. A normal as directed OTC dose will be sufficient - no more than every 3rd day if using Loperamide daily. This will restore bowel function to normal or even looser than normal (reduce miralax dose and/or frequency of using it to the 4th or 5th day if so). You can cause bowel obstruction or perforation resulting in sepsis if you don't. Don't use stimulant laxatives or bulk up with fiber - this compounds opioid related constipation instead of helping.
Taking Miralax BEFORE taking Loperamide in my experience drastically reduces the potency AND increases the onset of both PNS and CNS effects. But taking it in between [at least 2 hours after ingestion of Loperamide, and 12 hours before the next use - which you should never have to re-dose Loperamide that soon either for PNS or CNS effects imo].
At the very least, you will experience painful BMs if you DON'T take miralax - very painful - until your GI has developed a tolerance to µ-opioid agonism -- but I still need to take it and I've used Loperamide every 2-3 days for 2.5 years now if I don't I experience very painful bowel movements.
PNS, that is, Peripheral nervous system - stuff like GI, hyperalgesia from WD, hot/cold flashes, etc relief becomes apparent in as little as 30 minutes but as much as 90 on empty stomach (see below for more scientific detail)
I begin to withdraw again after 36-48 hours, sometimes it gives relief for as long as 3.5 days - but not often. The first symptom I get is hot and cold flashes, excessive perspiration. Hyperalgesia quickly follows. Diarrhea is the last to set in. It is a slow and HARD withdrawal that makes even precipitated withdrawal seem like cake.
CNS effects for me last at least 24 hours and as much as 72 hours. I begin craving opioids no sooner than 24-28 hours after initial ingestion.
Use of psychostimulants sometimes reduces this to 6-12 hours for me.
CNS takes 2.5-3.5 and with outliers going as far as 6 hours to become apparent (and unfortunately, many taking Lope for a "high" overdose lethally because of its LONG CNS effect onset - they redose several times before the initial dose reaches peak plasma in the CNS and it compounds into dangerous respiratory depression over 8-12 hours).
It is also quite viable for holding me psychologically (ie, I do not crave using, for instance, oxycodone even though I could easily acquire it and many others) which I know is quite rare for Loperamide -- most only get physical relief.*
That said, Loperamide does almost nothing for me in terms of analgesia yet my pupils constrict and my voice becomes froggy just like when I am loaded on any other opioid. It also has a potent blockade effect for semi-synthetics especially oxycodone oral route while it is at or near peak plasma after taking a dose above two digit figures, I won't say specifically how high I take as I don't want anyone taking it as a recommendation -- my dose would easily stop many from breathing suffice to say - including those with tolerances - so I'll just say its above
NOTE I have a considerable tolerance and a LONG habit as well as above average height and body weight to anyone reading - DO NOT take more than 100mg or even 50mg if you never used high dose Lope before - even with a tolerance to other opioids, start LOW and go up by 10mg increments allowing for at least 3 hours before expecting CNS effects - Loperamide can and will make you stop breathing and die just like any other opioid if you take too much! It may be FDA GRASE OTC without even an age restriction, but make no mistake it DOES cause respiratory depression that can make you stop breathing and become unconscious!)
Summarization of onset for me:
PNS (ie, relief from physical withdrawal) effect peak: 30 minutes-90 minutes after ingestion on empty stomach
CNS (ie, constricted pupils, euphoria, relief of cravings, mania, respiratory depression, somnolence, slowed heart rate, lower blood pressure) effect peak: 2.5-3.5 hours after ingestion on empty stomach
* - Though I say Lope is euphoric for me, its NOT suitable for general recreational use - if you want to get loaded occasionally then understand that you will feel more dysphoric effects than euphoric. The ONLY time the trade off makes Loperamide an "OTC methadone" is for us habituated and dependent persons who use it because its cheap, accessible, legal. I strongly urge anyone considering using Loperamide who is NOT both dependent and addicted to opioids to use something else if you seek opioids for recreation - and not a full synthetic opioid that has very little case studies about CNS effects or PNS when used in doses far higher than researched even on animals. Full synthetic opioids are a MINE FIELD - and theres way more baddies than there are goodies -- probably for every 1 useful recreational and/or medicinal opioid discovered by pharmaceutical companies, there are 500 that are extremely toxic and unsuitable for any purpose.
To those reading this and considering Loperamide use for anything other than maintenance or stop-gap WD relief or, of course, to treat diarrhea as-directed: Opt for semi-synthetic opioids or opiates proper whether for medicinal use, recreational, or maintenance when possible unless you have no other choice (ie, patients who need fentanyl because semi-synthetics no longer yield analgesia for them). Full synthetic opioids ALWAYS have more undesirable effects short and long term vs semis and opiates proper. Morphine is preferred for good reason in hospitals - it was called God's own medicine for good reason.
Loperamide may itself be a mine, also.
For a second reason also.
There's a reason the packaging always says to not use Loperamide products more than 7 days without being told explicitly to do so by a physician -- because history shows that longterm full synthetic opioid use often has gnarly side effects - including ones that result in chronic disease/disorders/injuries. It's not just because using it longer than that can and will cause PNS dependency and likely result in rebound diarrhea upon cessation - and that's with normal as-directed doses. But because most GRASE medications are not studied in higher than directed doses even on animals. 99% of studies about Loperamide state as fact that it causes no CNS activity, but we all know that is only the case if its used as directed, exceeding that dose yields CNS activity.
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Absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much Timland.
happydaysover
Greenlighter
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Thank you for your input Timland. You may be right. I wonder myself if it was both respiratory and heart failure. Its torture having to wait so long for the autopsy results. You seem very knowledgable , do you have medical training of some sort?
Timland
Bluelighter
In general, that is true.
But its not deniable that the two principal opiates (that is, opioid alkaloids extracted from papaver somniferum opium latex) Morphine and, to a lesser degree, Codeine, has less adverse effects than full synthetic opioids. And as for semi-synthetics, oxycodone at least has far less adverse reactions and peripheral activity like Tramadol's SSRI and Methadone's NMDA and acts as a straight MOR. It seems rare that a full synthetic simply acts as an MOR without some peripheral activity at sites other than µ-opioid receptors which more often than not yield adverse effects. Name one full synthetic opioid that has either through FDA or WHO or UK NHS less adverse effects than Morphine, I spent years obsessing over this stuff since pharmacology is a passion of mine and I have a slightly obsessive fascination with opioids of course.
It would be wonderful if such existed, but unfortunately they always come with more baggage when used longterm - especially ghastly ones like tramadol and propoxyphene (which the FDA should be taken to the wood shed for ever even THINKING about approving - Darvocet). Often, in the case of Fentanyl for instance, its baggage worth taking in exchange for the massively increased analgesic potential, but still with increased adverse reactions.
I'm not saying that full synthetic µ-opioid agonists are less or more likely to cause respiratory failure aka overdose than opiates or semi-synthetics, I'm saying they have more long term effects that Morphine and even Codeine do not when used long term.
Endorphin is a contraction of endogenous morphine.
And if you look at the history of pharmaceutical company R&D into full synthetic opioids you'll see the MASSIVE list of ultra-toxic opioids that they had to wade through to discover ones that were safe enough for human medicine.
In this case, I doubt we'll ever see a fully synthetic µ-opioid agonist that has the same or less adverse reactions than morphine.
That said, obviously morphine is too weak for many chronic pain patients and for them, full synthetics shine obviously. Analgesic potential is certainly one parameter that semi-synthetics and opiates will never match or beat fentanyl in analgesia potential.
But its obvious that full synthetics are not as healthy as opiates proper, and many semi-synthetics especially oxycodone.
Of course there are unhealthy semi-synthetics too that are linked to toxicity to organs and are also unsuitable for even a single use in human medicine. Hydrocodone is of course not IVable [lethal result] and is a semi-synthetic. And many opium alkaloids are extremely toxic too.
Look at the overall adverse reactions in clinical trials also of all the common full synthetic opioids, just the short term effects are often twice in number vs Morphine and when you consider the other pharmacodynamics such as NMDA activity with Methadone or SSRI activity with Tramadol for instance its obvious that overall pure mu-opioid agonism without other peripheral activity in the CNS is rarely accomplished with the same range of adverse reactions as morphine.
But all in all, I am grateful Loperamide exists and is as accessible as it is, I'd be fucked royally if it were Schedule V or never came to market in the first place. But if I could step in a time machine to 1903 where Morphine and Laudanum was cheaper than beer, I'd much prefer to maintain with either.
Timland
Bluelighter
No training, formally. I just read a lot of material and I am sort of obsessed with pharmacology and psychopharmacology and I consider myself a psychonaut of sorts.
Yes I would imagine waiting for that is tough. If it was somehow related to cardiovascular I would guess it is linked to the prolonged QTc interval issue that may be linked to loperamide use - http://journals.lww.com/ccmjournal/...entricular_Tachycardia_Storm_Due_to.1130.aspx
Sorry don't have the full text of that anymore, and its a bit above my understanding [as I know very little in regards to cardiovascular function/medicine].
I don't know if they'd be able to determine that from an autopsy though.
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