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john10960

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Hey everyone.

So I?ve been sober now from drugs and alcohol for close to 8.5 months now. I live in a sober house and go to AA/NA meetings.

I started taking bronkaid as part of my ECA stack to help with app suppression and as a general thermogenic.

Over time I started taking more and more of the bronkaid along with C and A as it helped more with app suppression but also because I seemed to start feeling some mild euphoric effect in combination with the anti deppresant I?m on.

So I continued taking it for that mild high it would give me along for the thermogenic/app suppression.

Initially I didn?t think much about it as it was OTC and wasn?t leading me to any other kind of relapse on my other drugs of choice (coke/alcohol) nor have I had the urge to indulge in those at all.

But after I awhile I realized I kept doing more of it because of the mild high it would give me. I kept consciously taking it even though I knew the high was part of it.
I?ve since completely dropped ECA altogether.

I?m riddled with guilt now that I had kept buying it partly because of the high and that I have technically relapsed and have to tell the sober house staff, my therapist, etc etc. I?ve been making really really great progress in life since I?ve been sober but now this guilt has me completely shut down with depression.

Just wondering what you guys think. Would this be considered a relapse or should I cut myself a break here? Again I?ve kept up with meetings,have a sponsor, still completely sober from all other drugs and alcohol, and have been doing really positively in life. It?s just that my guilty conscience has me riddled with guilt and I can barely seem to function now due to the resultant depression. I just wanted to come to an anonymous place and let this out.

Would really appreciate any feedback you guys might have.

Thanks everyone.
 
I may not be the best source of input and there are a lot here in your position so Ill let them comment but personally I wouldnt think so if youre taking relatively reasonable doses.

Ive taken up to probably 75-100mg per day and never gotten that feeling off of it so Im not sure if youre taking more but if its under that and youre using it for a specific purpose and you dont feel like it would make you relapse into recreational drug use (thats the important one) then I would think its fine.
 
My dosages would vary. Sometimes they would be a little higher than what you?re explaining.

What?s riddling me with guilt is that I would be taking them specifically to get that moderate high.

I don?t know how to deal with this in my head. I have an incredibly guilty conscience but I don?t know if this is worth spilling my guts to my therapist who might tell the sober house staff etc.

Again, it hasn?t led me to any other drug use and I have no desire to use. I just seemed to get hooked on this damn ECA stack which combined with my antidepressants gave me a moderate high.

Now I can?t get rid of the guilt and it?s wrecking me. I practically can?t function because of the guilt. Feel like I?m hiding this and projecting a lie to everyone.

I feel like there?s some way I gotta be able to talk to myself reasonably to be able to forgive myself, to still feel like I have maintained my sobriety, and move on.

Just can?t seem to do it.

Any other feedback would be incredibly helpful.

Thanks guys.
 
Sorry to hear about this mate :\

However, I think you need to compartmentalize your behaviour and look at it from a different perspective - ie: cut yourself some slack!

You literally did not relapse on coke or alcohol.

So first, that's a fucking big deal, so please give yourself credit for that because lots of people genuinely do fail.

Second, I also understand why you feel bad, because you're thinking you just replaced one addiction with another and still desire to get a bit 'high'. But put that into perspective: relying (don't say 'hooked', as that's false) on ECA to cope is nothing like as destructive or addictive as dealing with cocaine and alcohol.

In fact most 'sober' people also consume large amounts of caffeine (some ephedrine too), as well as other addictive things like sweets and candies, cakes, chocolate, junk food etc. Most of us are - to varying degrees - addicted to things that help get us through the day. These 'addictions' are only problematic if they get out of control and harm our lives.

Now since the ECA didn't harm your life at all, and actually helped free you from a worse addiction, it seems to me that you did the right thing in taking the ECA. And then, when you realised your 'crutch' might also become problematic, you talked to yourself and stopped. Which is perfectly as it should be, and proves (a) you made the right decisions all along, and (b) have pretty impressive willpower.

I'd be fucking proud if I'd managed to beat a bad addiction and all it took was a little ECA (a tool) that I was able to quit with relative ease. You should accept the truth of this, and use this knowledge to counter your unreasonable and misplaced guilty thoughts and feelings or the idea you somehow 'failed'.

You actually won - enjoy your victory! :D

Your strong reaction to even this minor 'drug' issue tells us you're totally determined not to relapse. But only if you can stop bashing yourself over the head about the way you succeeded. Don't be your own worst enemy and undermine all the good you've done with a distorted, twisted story of failure. Tell yourself a better story, write it down, memorise it, remember it whenever you're feeling shit to fight those feelings away :)


I'm going to move this over to sober living where you might get more replies:

PED --->>> Sober Living
 
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Thanks for the reply sir, I will soak that in.

Anymore feedback from others greatly appreciated
 
Ultimately, all that matters is what you think.

The way I see it is that you have done one hell of a job cleaning up and that trumps everything else. And you caught yourself doing that, so that is to be commended. So no, no harm done, at all. So relax. ;)

I wouldn't worry about it, I'm really proud of you, you have accomplished great things. Try to be kind and patient with yourself.


Here for you anytime,
your friend,
Ash.
 
What CFC and EPL1 said.

I hate it when hardcore recovery people try to guilt others into thinking they've somehow "failed" if they take anything that makes them feel better. Using that rationale, you may as well give up fresh air. Until recently I had seriously devastating problems with alcohol and opiates. In the past I've also abused methamphetamine and cocaine. I smoked cigarettes for over 45 years. I don't do any of those things now and my life has improved dramatically. I smoke a little weed and drink a lot of coffee. I eat too many sweets. I chew nicotine gum constantly. Am I an active addict? Yes. Am I also in recovery? Yes.

Harm reduction is the key.

Peace&Love,
jasper

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
 
I don't think you relapsed. A relapse to me is a return to the behaviors of addiction. Lying stealing obsessing over the drug ECT. If it's not like that then your ok. But maybe you should stop taking it so it doesn't escalate to a problem
 
Anyways, to reiterate, it was initially for weight loss. Then it began to become for the mild high it would give me.

Then began to take more and more.

Up to a certain point I didn?t think much about it and decided to stop it.

Until recently I had a really bad day and went to get some just to get out of myself and feel that mild high.

I took moderate to high amounts for a couple days. Then I decided this is using and dropped it.

Currently I feel that I?ve taken too much to the point where it?s interacted (it?s an MAOI) with my ssri anti deppresant (which has been vital to me feeling better through sobriety) to the point where it feels like my ssri has flatlined and now doesn?t feel like it?s working anymore. So I?m dealing with the guilt combined with feeling massively depressed again. So today I went and bought some more because the pain was too intense.

It didn?t do much for me , essentially nothing, and now I feel even more
Massively guilty. I feel
Like a complete fraud saying I have 8.5 months sober and it?s tearing me the fuck apart.

If I come clean about all this there will be a massive fallout, but mostly the reason I feel I don?t want to do it is because there were a couple other kids doing it for a little while with me, but they aren?t counting it as any kind of relapse, it would by proxy bring them into it. It would be horrible with my parents. It would completely reset things at the sober house. Would have to tell my therapist, psychiatrist, etc. my last relapse was pretty devastating so this would be killer.Things would kind of be a disaster.

But at the same
Time the guilt is wrecking me. Again I feel like a complete fraud and walking around with a 20 lb weight on my shoulders at all times on top of feeling like my anti depressant not working any more.

I just wanna get back to that feeling of not thinking about this bronkaid thing as being much of anything. Maybe this guilt has to do with my antidepressant feeling useless but part of me feels like it is just purely guilt. I used it to escape myself.
 
Thank you for sharing this with us John10960. I think you have answered your own question. We are not the ones who have to carry around the burden that you are suggesting you are carrying around. It seems that you are judgmental of your own behavior and motives. If you feel as though you are attempting to rationalize away your own behavior, to soften its impact, then it is likely that no amount of justification that others give will have the impact you are looking for. This is, and will continue to be, a journey inward. Some may be okay with themselves if they engaged in this behavior, but it is apparent that you are not included in that "some", just for today. If getting honest with us did not give you the freedom that you are looking for then I encourage you to seek that freedom where you know it can be found. You have already given your own solution. Keep seeking...
 
Sobriety is your own journey. You can't be concerned about mom and dad your therapist or anyone else really. It's a selfish kind of thing. There is no way the sober living is going to be able to test for this stuff so as long as you don't name names or even give the other guys a heads up to clear out there rooms I don't see it directly effecting anyone else. But you know the situation better then me. Your not a fraud your just struggling through this shit as best you can.

I think you should tell the phychiatrist and therapist. They can't disclose it to anyone without your permission unless you have already signed a disclosure agreement or they are directly connected to the halfway house. That way they can figure out what needs to happen pharmacology wise to get you feeling better.

At most sober living houses if you admit to using a drug they can't cheaply test for your going to be shown the door. It's unfortunate but that's how it goes.
 
Unfortunately I?ve already signed disclosure agreements with my psych and therapist.

I saw my psych the other day and asked him to up my anti depressant just saying I?ve been under a lot of pressure lately with finding a job and being in school. But not being honest with him was tough. I?m hoping quitting the bronkaid and upping my AD will help things.

I?m also seeing another therapist who I haven?t signed a disclosure agreement with. He says he personally doesn?t think it?s a true relapse considering I haven?t gone drinking or doing coke. I?ve also kept him in the loop that I did it a couple more times since we last spoke. When we saw each other he recommended giving it a week or 2 to let myself heal mentally and physically and re evaluate what to do. It?s just so hard living with this fraud type feeling in the mean time. Again I was making fabulous progress, in school, and just had an interview today for a job. But this guilt thing/feeling totally off biochemically is undermining everything I?m doing.

Part of me just wants to confess everything to everyone but I have a feeling it would go pretty badly. Parents would be probably be furious, although I?m not sure, and I?m rather dependent on them financially right now. Who knows what would happen. Theyve been extremely proud with the progress I?ve been making over the last months.If I were to ask my psych to keep it confidentia there?s no assurance she would since the agreement has been signed and if she thinks I?m in danger of relapsing. Also, just by proxy, these other two kids would be brought into it if she were to mention anything as we have all been testing positive for amphetamines but the tests get sent out to the lab and just show false positives. The main head of the house has approached these kids and one of them denied anything and the other mentioned he was using bronkaid for workout purposes. But if I were to mention I was using it recreationally they could get in trouble and the last thing I want to do is be a rat. At the end of the day we were all using it recreationally. They could deny it but they would be prolly real pissed with me and they would be suspect to using recreationally since we were all coming up positive at the same time. Again I was fine with it, until this last time I bought it again and I felt overwhelming guilt which I also think is in part to something being off bio chemically.

So I?m thinking I gotta just stop fucking with this shit, let myself heal menetally, and hopefully the increase in my AD will help with this guilt. Again I haven?t damn relapsed on alcohol or coke.
 
You are really beating yourself up. I think you've suffered enough.

As to "confessing" -- is the guilt worse than the potential fallout or vice versa?

If it were me, I'd quit the stuff and just pretend it never happened. Any other option sounds like making matters worse. But do quit-- mainly because it causes you so much emotional turmoil.


Peace&Love,
jasper

​"Hindsight is usually more tragic than helpful." -- Linda S. Godfrey
 
Thanks for the feedback guys. I?m going to see the other therapist again that I didn?t sign the disclosure agreement with.

In the meantime I?m dealing with this ever so familiar feeling of my anti depressant bottoming out on me and not working any more. It happened to me before on another one when I was taking high doses but then going a little higher on days where I anticipated more stress. I was also drinking at the time. (Both the high/alternating doses + drinking I think contributed to the bottom out).

This new one has worked great for me. I haven?t alternated doses. I?m hoping the bronkaid didn?t short circuit something or it?s just truly the guilt I?m feeling. I hope this increase in dose helps things. Meanwhile this current feeling is absolutely devastating for me. From feeling good to feeling nothing, incapacitated.

Really really hoping things normalize the more time I stay off the bronkaid.
 
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Do you know what chemicals are in it? I don't really know what you mean about the AD "bottoming out" like do you mean you feel better after dosing it in the morning then worse at night? Or do you mean it's completely lost effect all together?

I think phych meds especially SSRIs are very finicky. They rely on messing with neurologist chemistry in a way that we don't even really understand completely. So it's possible this supplement is messing with that but if it is you should bounce right back in a week or so depending on the half-life. The other thing that jumped out to me was appetite suppression. What's your diet like? Eating healthy and getting enough calories plays a big role in how you feel. Then finally there is the "pink cloud" effect. People tend to ferly really good right after getting sober and conpleting rehab. It's that sense of anything is possible I'm gonna change my life ECT. Then we face some adversity we get discouraged those old triggers of stress self hate and whatever else you deal with come back. It can be rough. If you can just ride out the next month I think you will feel better and put this shot behind you.

Recovery is a process. You didn't know the supplement would get you high so in a way you got blindsided by a situation you weren't expecting. But the important thing is you reconised the issue and are working to correct it. That doesn't make you a fraud it makes you human.
 
As far as the AD I very much recognize this flatline effect from the way it happened with my other one. It was working well then seemed to just stop. That was almost the main reason for my extreme relapse into drinking. I later got a blood test to see which ADs would work well for me and it was odd that one was on the ?wouldn?t work well? list because it was for so long. It has to do with metabolization processes I think Maybe it showed up that way because I was on it too long or too high of doses.

Anyways this new AD was on the ?works well with your body list? and it has. Bronkaid (ephedra) is somewhat of an MAOI so blocks re uptake of norepinephrine mostly but also somewhat dopamine and serotonin.

This new AD im on both gets the body to produce more serotonin plus blocks re uptake so it works in a novel way. I?m hoping the ephedra messing with serotonin didn?t overload things to a point where it just somehow shut things down which is what it feels like. Hopefully the longer I?m off the ephedra the more I?ll start to feel better. I really really hope so because right now I feel dead inside which is , again, what causes my major relapse into alcohol.

I was initially taking ephedra at normal workout doses. There was no high at all, just more energy and app suppression. Then these friends at the sober house just started taking higher doses one day for the slight buzz it gave them and for some reason I didn?t see it as a problem to try it that way. I was then taking it recreationally for a period of time, but in the back of my mind I was like this isn?t being sober.

But I still felt comfortable that I maintaintjng my regular sobriety. I knew it was definitely not going to drink or do coke and relapsing on any of that was the farthest thing from my mind.

Anyways, I stopped using it eventually because my regular pharmacy has a limit on the amount you can buy and I got paranoid about being put on some kind of a fed watch list. Plus I felt I just needed to stop using it altogether as it was a high.

Keep in mind I was very strict this whole time when my sober house friends would mess around with their regular meds to get a high. I always felt like that was breaking the rules but for some reason the ephedra thing didn?t hit my conscience enough.

Until last Friday, I had a bad day and decided I?ll just go to a pharm where they don?t check ID and I?ll buy for one last time and throw the rest away.

After that point the major guilt suddenly kicked in. The pain continued and I bought more. Yesterday I ended up throwing it all away and said I?m done with this bullshit.

But now I?m stuck with this horrible depression /guilt and feeling like my AD isn?t working at all and feel like I?m back at square one.

I?m hoping you?re right that in a week or so my head/AD should bounce back and I?ll start feeling like myself again because this is pure hell right now.

Thanks again for all the feedback and support guys.
 
I?m back to a non functioning zombie again. I?m scared af right now. My parents just think it?s pressure of school and looking for work. Ppl just think I?m going through a phase.

But I know the truth and it?s killing me. I?m
On the verge of confessing all but I think that might be a bad idea.

I really hope this passes or otherwise I don?t know how I?ll get through this. I was doing so damn well. Fuck
 
Bro take a deep breath!

Your brain chemistry is all out of whack right now. Your obviously a smart guy and have some understanding of neurochemistry and pharmacology. The alcohol and coke both work on dopamine and gaba for the alcohol. So those receptors get downregulated over time while your using. Studies show it takes a minimum of 90 days for your brain to start reastablishing homeostasis. So you feel like shit because your not getting enough dopamine. Then you feel anxious because your gaba receptors are downregulated. So you feel out of control from the gaba downregulation and like a zomb from the dopamine downregulation. That's also probably why you where feeling so good from the ephedra it was giving you that dopamine your lacking.

How are you sleeping? Not getting enough REM sleep will ramp up the severity of those symptoms as well. The only thing that's going to fix this is time. I really don't think you should change antidepressants right now because that's just going to further throw your neurochemistry off.

They told me in rehab not to make any major decisions right after getting sober. I think it's good advice.
 
If this is what happened with my other AD I?m not sure if I could go through that again. It took a really long time for me to feel better and a lot of different things to take place. And everyone knew I relapsed heavily so I didn?t have to deal with hidden guilt.

This time, I?ve kept my AD at a regular dose (haven?t alternated) and I messed around with some dopamine/neuro epinephrine/serotonin regulation. I haven?t relapsed on coke or alcohol (almost 9 months sober). But whatever has seemed to happen is significant neurochemically.

But now I?m confronted with not mentioning anything and dealing with a lot of guilt.

I?m hoping things bounce back for me within a couple days. Otherwise I have to confess and that will cause a major fallout.

I?m just stuck and limbo and my current mental state is that of a year ago which is a really dangerous and scary place for me to be.
 
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