• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist

Liver Flush....is it crap?

ODB said:
I agree about the doctors in the states. I stopped going to mine after he prescribed me to anti-depressants for my anxiety. I was fired from my job for being on drugs because my doctor told me to take one a day instead of telling me to start with 1/4 pill and slowly work up to a full pill. I was all spaced out and could not focus so I had to leave work Monday after I had started them on Friday. then I was 'let go'.

Doctors in the US seem to be legal drug pushers because they prescribe (push) drugs not medicines or remedies. But that is just my opinion.

It's pretty much undeniable that when you have a for profit medical system set up, those who are involved with it are going to become corrupt over time. The entire "health" industry is corrupt because it's just that, AN INDUSTRY. This is very disturbing. Now I'm not saying that NO doctors go into medicine with the truly good hearted intentions of helping people. I'm sure they are out there. But it cannot be denied that the system is set up and these doctors are taught even in school that pills are the answer to everything. Their mentality is disturbing and I've witnessed this by having conversations with them. I don't see how anyone could trust doctors simply because they "are a doctor". But if you do find a GOOD doctor you can trust and feel that is the right path for you then go for it, I'm not judging you or saying you are wrong. Just that this has been far from my experience and I sure as hell trust no one but myself with my health.

That being said, the way that Western medicine organizes its health studies is very reductionist and immature, in my view. Furthermore, it is extremely dogmatic and lacks attention to the subtleties of the body. It is not the information that is there, but how this information is arranged that I find to be lacking the capacity to see the big picture.

Well put, and I agree.

On all counts of my past health problems, I was always 200x more successful at detecting, deducing, and solving them than any Western-oriented health specialist I went to-

God, if I could only list out how many times I've been misdiagnosed and mistreated..it would take hours. I always seemed to be able to diagnose myself better reading web articles for a few hours than these doctors would be able to after looking at me.

very real even though science cannot figure out why it happened.

Exactly. My problem with the nay sayers isn't that I think they are dirty inside or need to flush themselves, it's that they might possibly turn someone away from this cleanse which could possible help them so so so much. I feel it's my duty to come and tell people how beneficial this cleanse can be. And even if the nay sayers thing this is just placebo effect, it still doesn't make sense why they would try to stop it. As you said, placebo effect is very very real. People who are suffering in poor help need all the hope they can get, I've been there, and liver flushing offers this sort of hope.
 
Deja first, then Bea:

deja said:
The entire "health" industry is corrupt because it's just that, AN INDUSTRY.
The alternative health business is an industry. Its very lucrative for the people selling diet books, cleanses, ear candles, et cetera.

deja said:
But it cannot be denied that the system is set up and these doctors are taught even in school that pills are the answer to everything. Their mentality is disturbing and I've witnessed this by having conversations with them.

8( If you show up at a general practitioner's office as an overweight, pre-diabetic smoker, they will tell you to exercise, eat a balanced diet rich in unprocessed foods including lean meat, fresh fruits, whole grains, and vegetables, and to stop smoking. The pharmaceutical industry may be all about selling pills, but doctors aren't their puppets. I have never met a doctor who didn't pressure people to live healthy. Docs prescribe pills because people go to the doctors office to get pills, because they believe they will fix their lives.

deja said:
My problem with the nay sayers isn't that I think they are dirty inside or need to flush themselves, it's that they might possibly turn someone away from this cleanse which could possible help them so so so much. I feel it's my duty to come and tell people how beneficial this cleanse can be. And even if the nay sayers thing this is just placebo effect, it still doesn't make sense why they would try to stop it. As you said, placebo effect is very very real. People who are suffering in poor help need all the hope they can get, I've been there, and liver flushing offers this sort of hope.

Meanwhile, people are writing books claiming to cure cancer with a raw food diet--and making millions off of it. People are dieing from orthorexia. Hope has its place in health, but you preach about it to medicine's detriment.

DT said:
I agree with this. If you know how to listen to your body, your insights about how it works will be very valuable to your decision-making process.

The overwhelming majority of evidence regarding the positive effects of alternative medicine is anecdotes about how much better people feel. How can someone distinguish between how their body feels, and how their mind believes their body to feel? Without double blind studies, cleanses--to me-- are just sympathetic magic.

DT said:
The US has a food industry based on "science". Studies show this-and-that is the new wonder food, lowers blabla, is harmful for your health. So-and-so is the allowable amount, X is safe in minimal, these are the allowable amounts. Planning your diet and building your food pyramid around research and studies. It is a totally confused and young eating and healing arena.
We agree. Americans would be better served by eating wholesome food than they are by eating "nutrients" as they are now. That has a lot more to do with the private industry of selling food to people with lots of disposable income than it does with science, though.

DT said:
However, discounting "alternative" health practices as un-scientific and therefore ineffective, is quite irresponsible. To a large degree, this assumes that validation by scholarly work is a pre-requisite to effectiveness. I am quite wary of newfangled inventions towards preventive health. However, I have more faith in traditional or other alternative medicine than Western medicine, simply because time and tremendous anecdotal information to be more reliable than piecemeal studies that do not cite the myriad other variables to be found outside a laboratory.

First, alternative healing is fundamentally unscientific, because its the alternative to science based medicine. Many practices have been incorporated into medicine that were previously just old wives tales. The difference isn't who it comes from, its what we know about it. For me, knowing how something works is the best kind of knowing.

Scholarly validation isn't a prereq for effectiveness-- it should just be a pre req for people who dispense advice about something as important as health.

Science doesn't ask for your faith in it. It supplies results, and asks you to make an informed decision based on established facts. Faith is for faith healers, and the people who go to them. If this is all that holistic medicine has to offer-- that the sum is greater than the parts-- then it not medicine-- it may be something beneficial, but its not medicine.

DT said:
When only an expert is "fit" to tell you about the status of your body, there is something wrong with the system.

This may just be an impasse, but I disagree. An architect knows more about ho to build a house than I do, even though I live in one. A mechanic knows more about my car, and a lawyer better understands the law.

That you are fatigued, or achy, may be a fact insofar as you experienced it, but its not what is actually happening. That you have parasites in your gut, and that the affliction responds favorably to a particular medicine is considerably more important. So yes, I think somebody who can tell you what's wrong, and how to fix it, reliably and predictably, is more "fit".

Personally, there were so many signs that we had been taught to observe since we were young-- our tongue, our voice, our sleeping patterns, how we feel when we wake up, our hair quality, our poop!
I know doctors-- they are taught the same things. I think you have a distorted idea of what Western doctors do. It is unfortunate that you have encountered so many ineffective people in health care. I think your inclination is to judge western medicine at its worst rather than at its best.

DT said:
"just" is not a good way to describe this. A "placebo effect" of something like a spontaneous remission from an evangelical prayer session is very real even though science cannot figure out why it happened.

The important thing to take away from this statement is that at least science is trying to figure out whats going on, rather than just shrugging when it doesn't happen the other 99/100 times (when terminal cancer kills). That's the ultimate difference between faith and science based medicine.
 
Pander Bear, the problem with the term 'alternative medicine' is it tends to include things which have scientific proof to back up the methods, but the science is so cutting edge or disproves what Western doctors have been considering the truth for so long that they refuse to accept it.

Cannabis is still considered a dangerous drug, instead of the miracle cure it's been proven time and time again to be.

And doctors still warn patients to avoid dietary cholesterol and saturated fats, when it's been demonstrated that dietary cholesterol has almost no affect on serum cholesterol and cholesterol levels have almost nothing to do with the cause of heart disease.

These are just two pet peeves of mine used as examples, perhaps not the most useful examples to demonstrate my point.

Every year, 'alternative medicine' has more science backing it up and what Western practitioners believe in becomes more and more outdated. Most of this is due to governmental pressure - the education doctors receive are based heavily on government policy.

Now, when one hears the word 'detox', any intelligent and well read person hears 'SCAM!' but that doesn't mean 'alternative medicine' equates to lack of scientific evidence.
 
Any doctor will tell you that a liver flush is not real. Limit toxins you ingest and drink SOME water. Waking up in sweat is a liver detox.
 
The alternative health business is an industry. Its very lucrative for the people selling diet books, cleanses, ear candles, et cetera.

This is absolutely true, but does not apply to the liver flush, as there is no one selling the liver flush. Someone may have been selling it many years ago at some point in a book or something but everyone who talks about it now are people who have had a positive experience from it and it's goodness is just being passed around from word of mouth. There is no one making money off the liver flush now besides like I said, maybe the grapefruit farmers and I really doubt the one grapefruit these flushes buy once every month or so is upping their profits that much.

If you show up at a general practitioner's office as an overweight, pre-diabetic smoker, they will tell you to exercise, eat a balanced diet rich in unprocessed foods including lean meat, fresh fruits, whole grains, and vegetables, and to stop smoking. The pharmaceutical industry may be all about selling pills, but doctors aren't their puppets. I have never met a doctor who didn't pressure people to live healthy. Docs prescribe pills because people go to the doctors office to get pills, because they believe they will fix their lives.

I understand you have had a different experience with doctors. I have no had the experience you mentioned and this is where my extremist viewpoint comes from. I don't deny that some people out there have good experiences with doctors, but for whatever reason, this has not been the case over the course of my entire life so I eventually just gave up and took things into my own hands *doing better than ever btw*.

Meanwhile, people are writing books claiming to cure cancer with a raw food diet

Something to that effect would be my choice "treatment" if I ever got cancer. Not sure what's wrong with that? I'm pretty sure we just have very different beliefs and as you said to DT it's an impasse.

How can someone distinguish between how their body feels, and how their mind believes their body to feel? Without double blind studies, cleanses--to me-- are just sympathetic magic.

I believe everything exists within the mind, so the state of the mind IS the state of the body. This has been the case in my life. And I also believe in magic. :)

This may just be an impasse, but I disagree. An architect knows more about ho to build a house than I do, even though I live in one. A mechanic knows more about my car, and a lawyer better understands the law.

Like I said, this has not even remotely been my experience with doctors.

I know doctors-- they are taught the same things. I think you have a distorted idea of what Western doctors do. It is unfortunate that you have encountered so many ineffective people in health care. I think your inclination is to judge western medicine at its worst rather than at its best.

I'll give you that. I think it's pretty natural that after years of horrible experiences with doctors and being repeatedly misdiagnosed, mistreated and not given proper care or information, that one would lose their trust for the entire system. Since I'm doing better now on my own, I'm grateful that this happened actually.

And doctors still warn patients to avoid dietary cholesterol and saturated fats, when it's been demonstrated that dietary cholesterol has almost no affect on serum cholesterol and cholesterol levels have almost nothing to do with the cause of heart disease.

These are just two pet peeves of mine used as examples, perhaps not the most useful examples to demonstrate my point.

Yup. Absolutely drives me mad as well.

Any doctor will tell you that a liver flush is not real.

Well that would be proof enough to me that it is real. ;) But what you said is not true. I know quite a few people who's doctors (actual doctors not alt med docs) support liver flushing and encourage their patients to flush.
 
MynameisnotDeja said:
This is absolutely true, but does not apply to the liver flush, as there is no one selling the liver flush. Someone may have been selling it many years ago at some point in a book or something but everyone who talks about it now are people who have had a positive experience from it and it's goodness is just being passed around from word of mouth. There is no one making money off the liver flush now besides like I said, maybe the grapefruit farmers and I really doubt the one grapefruit these flushes buy once every month or so is upping their profits that much.

Be that as it may, it doesn't mean it works. "Works" is entirely subjective in this case, since the liver's function is to eliminate toxins from the blood. Its cells contain enzymes to that end, and it regrows the cells as they do their job. To me, the entire idea of "toxins" and "cleansing" is entirely too foggy. Which toxins, how are they cleansed, how is liver function improved. Not asking these questions is just lazy.


I understand you have had a different experience with doctors. I have no had the experience you mentioned and this is where my extremist viewpoint comes from. I don't deny that some people out there have good experiences with doctors, but for whatever reason, this has not been the case over the course of my entire life so I eventually just gave up and took things into my own hands *doing better than ever btw*.
Woe be to you when something actually goes wrong with your body, and you're too resistant to science-based medicine when you actually need it, then.


Something to that effect would be my choice "treatment" if I ever got cancer. Not sure what's wrong with that? I'm pretty sure we just have very different beliefs and as you said to DT it's an impasse.
Yes, but I respect DT's choice, and I think she's intelligent enough to see the benefits of both alternative and mainstream healthcare. On the other hand, I fully expect you to refuse to look at western medicine because of your "beliefs". it wouldn;t shock me at all to hear that you died ravaged by cancer, while shelling out thousands for a patented coffee enema.


I believe everything exists within the mind, so the state of the mind IS the state of the body. This has been the case in my life. And I also believe in magic. :)
Then why not just choose to believe that visiting a doctor every 6 months for a physical will keep you healthy?

Well that would be proof enough to me that it is real. ;) But what you said is not true. I know quite a few people who's doctors (actual doctors not alt med docs) support liver flushing and encourage their patients to flush.

Sooooo, doctors are terrible and represent a system that you have no faith in, UNLESS they believe what you believe... which includes magic.
 
I think I gotta get myself ready for another one of them gallbladder flushes one of these days.

@Deja (or not Deja :)) : Did you prepare carefully for your flushes in terms of alkalising the body and fasting beforehand? Any preparatory advice you could give me before I go for it? I haven't done these for a long time and haven't fasted or deep-cleansed in quite a while. . .
 
When I first did it and had a lot of junk in my liver(hundreds and hundreds of stones! yuck!) I did prepare a bit more. Lots of fresh apples and apple juice and stuff. I also usually drink apple cider vinegar. I don't totally fast but sometimes I do a juice fast the day of the flush and occasionally two days before. On the day of the flush and the day after I take it easy and rest and take good care of myself.

I don't liver flush anywhere near as much as I used to because I don't get stones coming out anymore. I'm thinking about trying milk thistle for my liver too. Iodine therapy and lecithin seems to help as well, in fact lecithin is a really good supplement overall.
 
what an interesting debate...

I'd be willing to give this a try, but at 20 do you think i would reap any gains?
 
Sure. I think I was only 24 when I did my first one.

I'd just like to see people try it and see for themselves. I am a former skeptic, which is demonstrated if you read my posts in the beginning of this thread from years ago. I had no idea how it would make me feel when I did it.
 
^In response to Morb's post, we do all sorts of interventions on our human bodies. Surgery, drugs, etc. If you don't believe in intervening at all, fine, but you don't believe in medicine. If you just don't believe in alternative medicine, that's fine too, but I'm just replying to the quote.
 
Wow deja, I just read through the whole thread. I have to admit you had me ready to try a gall bladder flush when I read your testimonials at the top of page 3. My poop has been much lighter than usual lately.

But then you blew it with the rest of your posts, esp the 'raw foods for cancer' bit.
 
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MynameisnotDeja said:
Just curious, what risks would there be? It's just drinking some juice and oil. You don't even need to take the doses of epsom salts if you don't want to.

Now I totally agree with you that there is profit to be had in some areas of alternative medicine, such as selling herbal cleanses and what not, of course. But there is no one selling the liver flush. Who exactly would be profiting from writing fake testimonials about this? The grapefruit farmers? The olive oil industry? Whoever makes epsom salts and sells them for 2 bucks a box? lol I think you see my point. The flush instructions are free on the net and the ingredients are available at any supermarket for less than 15 bucks. It's not a multimillion dollar industry.

Also, for the people who claim the stones that come out are nothing but the ingredients injested in the flush process, what is your explanation for the fact that most of us who have flushed multiple times no longer get stones? I hope as a long term poster on bluelight I'd have earned enough of a reputation to not be thought of as a liar, and I know you don't know me but have faith in what I say because I'm telling the truth and would have no reason to lie.

My first few flushes I passed literally hundreds and hundreds of stones. Like, so much came out of me that it would have equaled BOTTLES of olive oil, not 1/2 cup. On my 5th flush, I passed a HUGE, milky white calcified ROCK, and my liver area felt sore afterwards. I could feel where it came out! After that, my digestion and mood improved so much it was unbelievable. Also after that, every flush I did, my stones began tapering off until I started having flushes with no stones at all.

Now I only have a few stones, or none, depending on how my diet and lifestyle has been. And I'm injesting the same amount of Olive oil every time. If it was just the oil coming out, wouldn't everyone get basically the same amount of stones coming out every time? The logic doesn't make sense to me, and thats why I think these testimonials are important. Olive oil doens't turn into a huge (bigger than square inch and rock hard) white stone in a few hours inside my body. Most of the reports that say the stones are olive oil don't say anything about rock hard white stones and many people have passed them.

I totally understand how you feel because I felt the same way. I was very skeptical before just saying what the heck and trying it.. and then.. wow.

That's very scary and if I had stones come out of me like that I'd think that something was majorly wrong with my body/health, and we have a self-cleaning system that works just fine and if it didn't we'd die prematurely.

Also taking epsom salt into your body is NOT a good thing to do. It's very dangerous.

Colonics are NOT good for the body. They can really screw up the colon/good bacteria that are in there.

I've never flushed once (I would never do something as dangerous as the Technique in the first post) and I've never had liver problems and yeah I've drank my fair share of booze and I've had blood tests done on my liver and it's fine. I'm also Hep C negative and I've been vaccinated for both Hep A and Hep B.

I hear that the herb milk thistle is supposedly good for the liver but a guy I know who was an alcoholic swears by it and you should check with a doctor/pharmacist before taking it.
 
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Its traditional in yogic practices (which have some pretty extreme flushes) to ingest yogurt afterwards to restore good bacteria to lining of stomach.

oh cool I just realized that you don't have to fast much for this flush. I will research it some more. I'm always up for exploring my body, inside and out.
 
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Don't the live cultures in yogurt help you break down mainly dairy products? And if you do not eat dairy(animal) the yogurt could harm your system?
 
ODB, no. Lactobacillus bacteria metabolize sugars other than lactose as well. They can eat a whole lot of things under the right conditions. They've been an integral part of the human gastrointestinal tract and the vagina for thousands if not millions of years.

However, they can also be killed off by antibacterial drugs, or by a bacterial infection by harmful bacteria. Like if you got Montezuma's Revenge in Mexico, you might not have a healthy population of lactobacillus for a long while if you don't replenish yourself with more.
 
The Is said:
Wow deja, I just read through the whole thread. I have to admit you had me ready to try a gall bladder flush when I read your testimonials at the top of page 3. My poop has been much lighter than usual lately.

But then you blew it with the rest of your posts, esp the 'raw foods for cancer' bit.

Why? You don't think healthy, balancing foods would be good for cancer? my random opinions don't have much to do with the liver flush, but if you don't feel it's right for you I agree you shouldn't try it. I'd never try anything that I didn't resonate strongly with.

<3

Gaian, I always eat lots of kimchi after the flush.. mmmm good bacteria.
 
kimchi sounds better to me than yogurt. Would that do the same? Or is there somthing else that isnt animal product that could work?
 
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