• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

Legitimacy of not-believing.

yagecero

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
312
I'd like to know your thoughts on not believing in anything? Now, I want to stipulate that this is not the same as believing in nothing.

Do you believe that it's a legitimate position to take? A constant negation of belief has some rewards, especially if one can combine this viewpoint with a respect of what others believe.

I, at times, think that people's beliefs (whether or not based on "knowledge") are what keeps us apart, and if the feeling that[those-that-don't-share-my-beliefs-are-wrong]one-is-right attitude that comes with believing were non-existent, perhaps we'd get along much better.

Discuss.
 
Last edited:
Not believing anything is similar to my thoughts on acceptance of reality. I find that while it may be stimulating and interesting to speculate and debate various philosophical and spiritual topics, the fact is that most topics are subjective, and that there is no definitive answer. Therefore, acceptance of reality causes a feeling of being content, as well as being a good foundation that allows learning from all sorts of walks of life.
 
I find it impossible to believe anything 100% because this is what the word 'believe' means to me:

" I have taken this idea, based on a mixture of incomplete evidence and gut feeling and have chosen to hold so tightly to this idea, that I am deliberately ignoring anything to the contrary, for fear of losing the one thing that was giving me direction, and substance to my personality "

Am I right?
 
I'd qualify that as Fanaticism, not Belief. Belief, to me, is the extension of faith (being trust in an idea or concept without proof) to a philosophy or thought system which is already decided upon logically and personally, usually based on values and character.
 
Not to mention the majority of such believes have primarily been used for repression of the masses.
Whatever the thinker thinks, the prover proves...

And if the Thinker thinks passionately enough, the Prover will prove the thought so conclusively that you will never talk a person out of such a belief, even if it is something as remarkable as the notion that there is a gaseous vertebrate of astronomical heft ("GOD") who will spend all eternity torturing people who dont believe in his religion.
 
Hmm.. This is a highly critical stance; albeit popular, especially among conspiracy theorists. This isn't to say that religion hasn't been used for inappropriate purposes, and it is undeniable fact that acts of violence and oppression have been perpetrated in the name of gods. However, I would say that the palliative and stewarding effects of religion outweigh the negative. Imagine if all the people who use religion as a moral guideline were to lose that.
 
Imagine if all the people who use religion as a moral guideline were to lose that.
The moral guidelines of religion are taught; those same ethics can also be taught without the mandatory believe in a god (or the inferior position of women, for that matter).

This is a highly critical stance; albeit popular, especially among conspiracy theorists.
The way in which the church operated during most of the Middle Ages reminds me a lot of the movie Das Leben der Anderen i.e. the way in which the Stasi operated in Eastern Germany. I do not consider myself a conspiracy theorist by saying this, at least not in the 'negative' sense in the word (tin-foil hat etc.).
 
Well of course the morals could be taught without religion, but the fact is that not many people are motivated or interested enough to find any useful information for themselves. Additionally, many people would not accept values without Authority. It is unfortunate, but there are tons of people who really are just stupid. Like, literally unintelligent. To the point that they NEED religion even.

I already stated that there is very obvious historical evidence that makes fact the improper use of religion. However, these cannot be taken singularly. People often focus on the negative, because it leaves a greater impression on the mind, but when compared to the track record for what is typically called "Good" that is perpetuated by religion, I would say the positive is greater than the negative.
 
I already stated that there is very obvious historical evidence that makes fact the improper use of religion. However, these cannot be taken singularly. People often focus on the negative, because it leaves a greater impression on the mind, but when compared to the track record for what is typically called "Good" that is perpetuated by religion, I would say the positive is greater than the negative.
I feel you here. But I think it is difficult to prove those positive contributions would not have happened without religion. Therefore I find it hard not to remain sceptical.
 
Understandable. I guess I am just less optimistic about the triumph of human nature ha.. Enlightenment comes from hard work towards the goal, not from natural human psyches. At least, I don't think so.
 
I guess I am just less optimistic about the triumph of human nature ha.. Enlightenment comes from hard work towards the goal, not from natural human psyches. At least, I don't think so.
Well, it is a fact current society is 'furnished' exactly contrary to human nature, so I do not believe human nature to be the culprit but the anti-social structure to which the majority of civilization seems condemned (this has been going on for at least 2-3 thousand years). Also, I have been reading some Eckhart Tolle lately, so perhaps I let his beliefs trouble my own. ;)

Human nature is not the problem, the ego is...and the ego is constantly threatened by living in crowded cities, working in crowded environements and a constant supply of super-alpha role models.
 
I disagree. I would say that human nature (intrinsic desires for pleasure for example) is kept in check through the ego (the conscious aspect of your entire mind), and that the ego is not shaped by society, but by an individual's most basic values and thought systems.

Also, cities are nature. What else would you call the habitat of the planet's most successful creature?
Nature isn't organic; nature is natural. And development and progress are natural of highly functioning creatures.
 
"Nothing is true, anything is possible."
-- Robert Anton Wilson :)

I think that there is value in being judicious in choosing what beliefs to hold. I think there is value in examining one's beliefs, and making sure they are truly helpful to you. But I question both the practicality and the merits of never believing anything, ever. I say this just because extremes are seldom good. Clearly there is folly in being too credulous and not skeptical enough, and it seems to me taking skepticism to an extreme is problematic too. For example, how would I ever make or keep any friends if I always demanded hard proof that they liked me for me, rather than taking a risk and believing their overtures at friendship were genuine? How would I be able to drive to work, if I didn't have some faith that enough of my taxes were actually going to keeping the roads in safe condition, rather than entirely to the pockets of corrupt politicians?

The thing is, none of us can really get through the minutiae of our day to day lives without, at any given moment, taking things as 'given' that we haven't the time or resources to definitively prove. We jump to conclusions and assume things are true without proof all the time -- it's part of the way we simplify the torrent of tasks and information life throws at us.

I think you're talking about being flexible in your beliefs, and not settled on any particular one. That's admirable. That's openmindedness. But it's a little different from not believing in anything. It just means that your beliefs change rapidly, based on the situation and the information you have.
 
I feel it's alot like giving up on the biggest questions of existence.
If your right, all that time n effort is rewarded.
If your wrong, at least you have most likely bettered yourself through the lifetime search of such an answer.
 
not believing in anything is the most rational thing you could do, but rationality on its own is boring. :)
 
We have to define belief before anything..after all when we take some concepts to be an adequatio, like space and time, or axioms in mathematics that do not have to be proven but are taken as self-evident, would we call this a belief? I know there's always should be a question concerning believing in morals, values, religious systems, but how about the basic systems that circumscribe reality itself, like language or the axioms that make up our sciences?

And I also disagree to a point that pleasure is kept in check by the ego, for sometimes the ego can be used to justify pleasure's transgressions, thus the defense mechanisms that are mostly associated with the ego.
 
I have taken this idea, based on a mixture of incomplete evidence and gut feeling and have chosen to hold so tightly to this idea, that I am deliberately ignoring anything to the contrary, for fear of losing the one thing that was giving me direction, and substance to my personality

Am I right?

I like this, but it's really not about being right or wrong.

"Nothing is true, anything is possible."
-- Robert Anton Wilson :)

I think that there is value in being judicious in choosing what beliefs to hold. I think there is value in examining one's beliefs, and making sure they are truly helpful to you. But I question both the practicality and the merits of never believing anything, ever. I say this just because extremes are seldom good. Clearly there is folly in being too credulous and not skeptical enough, and it seems to me taking skepticism to an extreme is problematic too. For example, how would I ever make or keep any friends if I always demanded hard proof that they liked me for me, rather than taking a risk and believing their overtures at friendship were genuine? How would I be able to drive to work, if I didn't have some faith that enough of my taxes were actually going to keeping the roads in safe condition, rather than entirely to the pockets of corrupt politicians?

The thing is, none of us can really get through the minutiae of our day to day lives without, at any given moment, taking things as 'given' that we haven't the time or resources to definitively prove. We jump to conclusions and assume things are true without proof all the time -- it's part of the way we simplify the torrent of tasks and information life throws at us.

I think you're talking about being flexible in your beliefs, and not settled on any particular one. That's admirable. That's openmindedness. But it's a little different from not believing in anything. It just means that your beliefs change rapidly, based on the situation and the information you have.

You always write your responses in such an eloquent manner, thank you. What I'm proposing is a constant state of open mindedness in which all views are acceptable. It's a difficult task to commit to, I admit - but if your purpose is to find a way to explain it moreso than understand it, a negation of belief is almost necessary to accept views that seem contrary to your own.

not believing in anything is the most rational thing you could do, but rationality on its own is boring. :)

I love this.

We have to define belief before anything..after all when we take some concepts to be an adequatio, like space and time, or axioms in mathematics that do not have to be proven but are taken as self-evident, would we call this a belief? I know there's always should be a question concerning believing in morals, values, religious systems, but how about the basic systems that circumscribe reality itself, like language or the axioms that make up our sciences?

And I also disagree to a point that pleasure is kept in check by the ego, for sometimes the ego can be used to justify pleasure's transgressions, thus the defense mechanisms that are mostly associated with the ego.

I can respond to the question regarding language, as it is language that has lead me to the development of this question (and please keep in mind that it is a question, I have no concrete explanations and therefore will not suggest that I "know" what I'm talking about).

And semiotics: A word is a sign that is made up of a referent, a signified and a signifier. Now, if you recall my original post, I stated that this question deals with not believing in anything, which is not the same as believing in nothing (which is indeed a thing). The universe as we know it is made up of "things" which are referents in semiotics. Now in most cases, the signified and the referent are interchangeable - when I think of chair, the archetypal chair is formed in my mind and then I can choose to signify it, to label it with a sound or visual representation (signifier) and thus differentiate it from the other referents.

Homonyms make it necessary to differentiate between referents and signifieds as if I signify a bar for example (let's say I'm holding a bar of xanax but you can't see that): "I'm going to put this bar in my mouth and swallow it", and we're actually standing at a bar drinking a beer - my utterance instantly becomes absurd.

So referents are "real" things, as in they exist, but they only mean something to us once they're signified. So it's the thought of the "thing" that means more to us than the thing at its origin. It becomes even more interesting when we take into account that language is a system of differentiation. A bar is a bar because it's not a stool. Now am I talking about xanax or a bar where we go to drink or a stool where one might sit to have a drink at a bar or a stool that one may expel the following day after eating a burrito on the way home from the bar?

Language is a representation of what we experience at best, and is this really something that I want to use to express my "beliefs"? Something that I can use to suggest that my "beliefs" are somehow "better" than those of others?

Words only signify what they mean through a process of differentiation, and this differentiation is not a play on opposites. It's a play on every other thing that any particular thing is not, an almost same-thing serves the same purpose as one thing's exact opposite - it allows us to differentiate.

A 3.2 centimetre stick is not the same as a 3.21 centimetre stick, and as long as it is signified as such, we will be able to derive meaning from it. Without the signifier, it will most likely remain a short stick.

Meaning is derived through the interpretation of sign-systems, but interpretation is skewed subjectively - at most we have a web that approximates meaning.

I suppose I'm asking if that is enough?

I'm really not that confident.
 
Phrases that came to my mind when i saw this thread:

-Believe nothing, explore/consider everything

-"Reality is what you can get away with" -RAW

-Learn from everyone, follow no one

-Agnosticism

I do agree with these statements except for the last one. I am a gnostic with a small g.

Believing can lead to fanaticism if left unchecked. But at the same time I don't see how we can live our lives without believing in something for the time being, even if it is nothing or something negative.
 
Top