modern capacities aside, it simply didn't happen that way. the endeavour to order came before that to power.
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P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat
Legitimacy of believing
- Thread starter A Blind Guy
- Start date
modern capacities aside, it simply didn't happen that way. the endeavour to order came before that to power.
echo off
Bluelighter
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blind guy, i like to think i can read sarcasm, but i swear i'm rarely sure with you.
belief is fine. if you can't get an answer for a question, you have every right to try and figure out what the answer might be. acting on these beliefs is another matter completely. if you believe going to church and praying is important, that's a private activity, but if you tell people that 'god hates fags' it's a public activity (and i'm amazed that guy hasn't been shot yet)
belief is fine. if you can't get an answer for a question, you have every right to try and figure out what the answer might be. acting on these beliefs is another matter completely. if you believe going to church and praying is important, that's a private activity, but if you tell people that 'god hates fags' it's a public activity (and i'm amazed that guy hasn't been shot yet)
yagecero
Bluelighter
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^this^
MyDoorsAreOpen
Bluelight Crew
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A Blind Guy said:So, can we finally get over these faith vs. atheism fights?
LOVE.
... How is this in any way legitimate.
If you don't get what this poster is saying, I feel sorry for you. You say you don't like intolerance? Start by not practicing it.
IME, life gets a whole lot easier when you just start accepting people as they are, with all their human quirks and failings, even ones that differ from yours. So you've never felt a need for any sort of higher purpose to life. That's great. Please understand that you're in the minority on this, and quite possibly always will be. But that's OK -- for you and for others.
B9
Bluelight Crew
!!4iV4HF9R34g
Bluelighter
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The only legitimacy of belief based solely on faith regarding a matter is in the mind of the individual.
Legitimacy is established by ascertaining whether the matter has two characteristics: self-evidence and infinite iteration.
Legitimacy is established by ascertaining whether the matter has two characteristics: self-evidence and infinite iteration.
A Blind Guy
Bluelighter
I think I missed the mark in my OP.
What I was trying to say, I guess, was this; Why do theists believe that humans have an intrinsic knowledge of God, or are born with God, or are born to serve God or what have you when we are born without knowledge of the divine whatsoever? We are all born atheists.
It's as if theists believe us humans to have been born "broken", that we need to be fixed. That is... depressing and largely untrue. So they teach us the religion they've been taught by their parents and the cycle goes on.
But religion is so pointless. Look at how many of them there have been, like what, 2812 or whatever? They've all said different things and said that those things are true. With such wide ranging speculations one could only reach the conclusion that all of them are incorrect and that humans have absolutely no fucking clue what is happening out there in the universe, really.
Especially since they all say a couple things that should raise some skepticism.
Like how they all have the same amount of proof (none, no proof whatsoever for any of them)
How they all say that they are absolutely, unequivocally right. (again, without proof and they all say this.)
How all other faiths are wrong because I mean clearly they're wrong if we're right. (still no proof, and they all say this)
Then people try to say that the universe itself is proof of their deity's existence, but they all say that and that doesn't really help us in the end anyway. The argument from ignorance, I believe? It's assuredly some logical fallacy.
Then you guys try and tell me that I believe science like I would believe in a religion. Ho ho! A bolder statement may never have been said. To this, I answer "No."
Plain and simply, "no". I do not worship the Big Bang. I do not go to church. I would not say that I believe every word scientists say, because to believe means to not exercise any level of skepticism or critical thinking, which I think is offensive for you to say to me as a person.
I say "that sounds like it makes sense." Actual sense. Not the way someone could say that religion makes sense. (Not like it's even supposed to; it's believers will frequently tell you that it is not supposed to make any sense at all, to you, petty human.)
I think it is sad, truly, that religion shackles the minds of so many people around the planet. It's gotten to the point where people are still clamoring to try and fit God into scientific reasoning or data, to use science in such a vain effort to prove that God exists.
Why is it, religious scientist, that you are not strong enough of conviction in your beliefs to need only that? Why do you have to go off searching for God? What is that to say about what you believe in if you are constantly trying to justify it through other means than just your faith?
Are you afraid, maybe, of the idea that you have been lied to? Tricked. Fooled. Had the wool pulled over your eyes. That there is no life after death and that God is not real is assuredly a disturbing thought, one might try to suppress such information in their heads. So they drown it in faith. Revel in it.
I said in the "list proofs of/against God" thread that no evolutionary adaption would give us insight into the fundamental nature of reality, this was agreed upon.
I then went on to say that religion is an evolutionary adaption because it gave us, the semi intelligent human species, something to actually strive to live for. For evidence, I brought up the fact that in the worst societies economically, in the places where people have nothing, there is the highest rates of fundamentalist religion. It's like an inherent defense mechanism we use to blind ourselves from the cold, hard fact that life is very cruel, random, and that it does not care about you or your comfort.
Again, I ask the question (I don't think I asked it in this thread), what does religion actually do for the individual who believes that cannot be accomplished through something else? Some other sort of social construct like group talking, or what have you?
I think all of our existentialist fears could be quelled by the fact that if we all come together and talk about them then we can learn that we are all sort of on some level afraid. And it is from this mutual fear that we can derive great bravery and strength and togetherness and love.
The unfortunate thing is that someone thought of the afterlife. This means that we are always going to know about the idea of the afterlife. We will wish for it, hope to have it, and will search our whole lives for the answer to it. We have stoked our own fires for an endless chase of what is essentially nothing.
There is no point in worrying about the afterlife. Nobody knows what it is, and for them to say that they even have the smallest semblance of an idea about some sort of life after death... well that's just wishful thinking.
What I was trying to say, I guess, was this; Why do theists believe that humans have an intrinsic knowledge of God, or are born with God, or are born to serve God or what have you when we are born without knowledge of the divine whatsoever? We are all born atheists.
It's as if theists believe us humans to have been born "broken", that we need to be fixed. That is... depressing and largely untrue. So they teach us the religion they've been taught by their parents and the cycle goes on.
But religion is so pointless. Look at how many of them there have been, like what, 2812 or whatever? They've all said different things and said that those things are true. With such wide ranging speculations one could only reach the conclusion that all of them are incorrect and that humans have absolutely no fucking clue what is happening out there in the universe, really.
Especially since they all say a couple things that should raise some skepticism.
Like how they all have the same amount of proof (none, no proof whatsoever for any of them)
How they all say that they are absolutely, unequivocally right. (again, without proof and they all say this.)
How all other faiths are wrong because I mean clearly they're wrong if we're right. (still no proof, and they all say this)
Then people try to say that the universe itself is proof of their deity's existence, but they all say that and that doesn't really help us in the end anyway. The argument from ignorance, I believe? It's assuredly some logical fallacy.
Then you guys try and tell me that I believe science like I would believe in a religion. Ho ho! A bolder statement may never have been said. To this, I answer "No."
Plain and simply, "no". I do not worship the Big Bang. I do not go to church. I would not say that I believe every word scientists say, because to believe means to not exercise any level of skepticism or critical thinking, which I think is offensive for you to say to me as a person.
I say "that sounds like it makes sense." Actual sense. Not the way someone could say that religion makes sense. (Not like it's even supposed to; it's believers will frequently tell you that it is not supposed to make any sense at all, to you, petty human.)
I think it is sad, truly, that religion shackles the minds of so many people around the planet. It's gotten to the point where people are still clamoring to try and fit God into scientific reasoning or data, to use science in such a vain effort to prove that God exists.
Why is it, religious scientist, that you are not strong enough of conviction in your beliefs to need only that? Why do you have to go off searching for God? What is that to say about what you believe in if you are constantly trying to justify it through other means than just your faith?
Are you afraid, maybe, of the idea that you have been lied to? Tricked. Fooled. Had the wool pulled over your eyes. That there is no life after death and that God is not real is assuredly a disturbing thought, one might try to suppress such information in their heads. So they drown it in faith. Revel in it.
I said in the "list proofs of/against God" thread that no evolutionary adaption would give us insight into the fundamental nature of reality, this was agreed upon.
I then went on to say that religion is an evolutionary adaption because it gave us, the semi intelligent human species, something to actually strive to live for. For evidence, I brought up the fact that in the worst societies economically, in the places where people have nothing, there is the highest rates of fundamentalist religion. It's like an inherent defense mechanism we use to blind ourselves from the cold, hard fact that life is very cruel, random, and that it does not care about you or your comfort.
Again, I ask the question (I don't think I asked it in this thread), what does religion actually do for the individual who believes that cannot be accomplished through something else? Some other sort of social construct like group talking, or what have you?
I think all of our existentialist fears could be quelled by the fact that if we all come together and talk about them then we can learn that we are all sort of on some level afraid. And it is from this mutual fear that we can derive great bravery and strength and togetherness and love.
The unfortunate thing is that someone thought of the afterlife. This means that we are always going to know about the idea of the afterlife. We will wish for it, hope to have it, and will search our whole lives for the answer to it. We have stoked our own fires for an endless chase of what is essentially nothing.
There is no point in worrying about the afterlife. Nobody knows what it is, and for them to say that they even have the smallest semblance of an idea about some sort of life after death... well that's just wishful thinking.
Deleted member 175441
Bluelighter
IMO it takes an "infinite" amount of faith to be sure anything outside your own mind exists. So I do think science takes an even larger amount of faith.
Deleted member 175441
Bluelighter
Oh and Religion is thoughts and beliefs communicated, monotheistic religions can misunderstood throughout life and I don't think many people devote themselves to analyzing scripture to find God anymore, It's mostly tradition and security that has no need to be destroyed. It was essential for us in the past because we didn't have the dualism of science and church and were seeking a truth which led us to expand across the globe and reach present day. That being said quantum physics is kind of merging the two again and leaving us to manufacture our own realities, or watch reality television.
A Blind Guy
Bluelighter
Never said anything about anyone analyzing scripture. Although that would be stupid.
"Let's look for God in the Bible!"
lol.
B9
Bluelight Crew
Especially the ones who insist they aren't smart.
You blind guy, the idea that someone thought up the idea of religion as way of controlling society is pretty much correct as far as I can imagine but I doubt it was done with malice aforethought, more maybe in a last ditch attempt at restoring some form of order - I freely admit my reasoning comes from the tales of Zoroaster/Moses/Mohammed - they would say that wouldn't they ?
There are plenty of ways of controlling society & these are employed widely but non seem to reap the amount of scorn that religions do.
No we aren't, agnostic perhaps, but to be atheist one must first have a theology to negate.
Gives them a set of rules to abide by, allows access to a wider culture, whatever they make of it really. Religion can be very negative for some people yet seemingly very postivee for others, whatever gets you through the night I guess
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A Blind Guy
Bluelighter
B9
Bluelight Crew
Well to be honest idk which cultures are older where we have a written religious code which we can fairly easily culturally interpret ?
which question - cut & paste it in full please
which question - cut & paste it in full please
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easy interpretation? ermm... well, by going to the easy option, you're hardly getting to a truth. written code? well... they don't all work like that...
the indigenous cultures in the americas and australia are perhaps some places to look, but the trip won't be easy, bro. you might find more on the pagan cults of ancient rome.
the indigenous cultures in the americas and australia are perhaps some places to look, but the trip won't be easy, bro. you might find more on the pagan cults of ancient rome.
B9
Bluelight Crew
Well I am lazy & to be fair I'd not be doing you or me justice if I didn't specifically ask what you were referring to. Could you give an overview of these older relgions please. My interpretation of a religion is a fairly rigid set of values & does not necessarily include any spirituality.
In my defence the relgions I used to illustrate my point do not have any connection with indigineous culture in america or oz ....unless we are going back to the dawn of consciousness. They are very definitely the products of cohesive societies in turmoil
In my defence the relgions I used to illustrate my point do not have any connection with indigineous culture in america or oz ....unless we are going back to the dawn of consciousness. They are very definitely the products of cohesive societies in turmoil
B9
Bluelight Crew
If you find the time then I'd like a reading list that would cover what you're trying to get across to me - brevity is always appreciated where it is possible to maintain the content of course
herbavore
Bluelight Crew
that is a most concise and perfect description!