Legitimacy of believing

[A Blind Guy]

To be honest, your psychology scares me.

You seem to be a classical case of religious fundamentalism, people who feels powerless and needs to exhibit power on others. Your religion is one which worships only the Self -- the worst of all.

I will not participate anymore in this thread.

... I do not think you can legitimately make that claim. I very rarely exhibit power over others and actually dislike the idea of power. I do not want to be put in the position where I can tell people what they can and can not do. I view positions of power to be someone's attempts at gaining leverage over someone else through means other than the physical or mental. I also do not agree with exerting physical power over other people unless through sport.

People who go into positions of power have a weakness they are trying to compensate for, by getting that position of power. Police officers are great examples. Some of them are big, fat and stupid, and only got that job to quench their thirst for domination over their fellow humans by taking advantage of the system we set up to govern ourselves. This is how corruption starts, I believe.

You seriously know nothing about me and now you call it quits on this conversation because you are making completely incorrect assumptions about me as a person, based on a couple writings about my feelings on superstition. That's childish. You should see every conversation to its conclusion, to show a little bit of respect to me. I will continue this conversation out of respect for you. If you got shit to say, I'm gonna read it.

Why does my psychology scare you? I don't hurt other people. I just attack religion with everything that I have because I consider it, as Bill Maher excellently put it, "fundamentally detrimental to the forward progression of humanity". I don't worship anything. Worship, to me, is a sign of weakness, which I am against because weakness is a negative human characteristic and we should not allow it to happen. People shouldn't be weak.

Actually that's a lie. The way I would describe how I interact with women during sex is "worship", it is the only word fitting the feeling I have when I think about it. So I guess I worship pussy.

 

[Tude]

I think religion was invented by ancient governments in order to control people. The law works, as long as you catch someone breaking it. What better way to keep the masses in line than telling them they're always being watched, and he's (it surely can't be a she) all powerful?

 

[LadyLucid]

Your religion is one which worships only the Self -- the worst of all.

..sorry but I don't think that's exactly what he's getting at. What religion are you talking about? He's not condemning anyone who doesn't believe in his word, he's just putting out his opinion of what a well working human machine would be. A religion calls for people to accept the word as law or face damnation.. also, perpetual self-improvement doesn't seem like that bad of an ethic to me. It's hard for people who want to do good in the world to do much more than talk about it to the people around them, send some money to charities,etc. It would be quite simple to just start the change with yourself, don't be a shitty person and perpetuate the species in a responsible manner.

Worship of any kind is useless to me. Reverence, respect, acknowledgment of what sustains life and what might be out there in the universe is my only "religion". Nothing dictates whether my actions are sins or otherwise.

 

[A Blind Guy]

I think religion was invented by ancient governments in order to control people. The law works, as long as you catch someone breaking it. What better way to keep the masses in line than telling them they're always being watched, and he's (it surely can't be a she) all powerful?

I was thinking that the other day. What if religion was invented by smart people as a way to control all the dumb people before they set up legitimate governments or what have you? Sounds like something man would do.

 

[L2R]

Through something else, yes. Still a crutch, my friend.

i didn't even read anything in this thread prior to my first post, which was only a pedantic take on the meaning of the word "belief" as opposed to "knowledge".

From what little else I have glanced over in your posts, i see a great deal of assumption and prejudice. The only thing i'll respond to right now, cuz i really don't care for such self-righteousness and i currently have better things to do, is that in this above quote. Belief in a higher power is not essentially appealing to "something else". Just think about that for a bit.

 

[L2R]

I think religion was invented by ancient governments in order to control people. The law works, as long as you catch someone breaking it. What better way to keep the masses in line than telling them they're always being watched, and he's (it surely can't be a she) all powerful?

clearly you and some others here have no idea about history. politicians have exploited religions for thousands of years to gain support, but they had no hand in creating it. sure, the emperor constantine helped mutate the sun cult into christianity to spread it through rome as a change from the thousands of other cults, but that in no way delegitamises the worship of the sun.

 

[alasdairm]

Why is believing something that cannot be proven or quantified, and has no evidence for it more legitimate than not believing all of these stories.

it's not.

alasdair

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

[The OP has] IMO a really facile view of reality and nature.

This. That's all that warrants saying as far as this thread's concerned, it seems.

EDIT:

it's not.

alasdair

And that.

 

[A Blind Guy]

I call your views superstitious and you call my views facile.

Cool.

 

[sssssssssss]

What are you smoking. We can definitively have science without faith. Science is the study of things, not the faith in things.
Are you high?

I do believe in purpose, just not a higher purpose. To think we have a higher purpose beyond reproducing kin is arrogant.
Seriously it's like none of you read what I'm saying.

We cannot perform new experiments and develop new theories without developing a hypothesis, which is believing in what we think will happen.
Well we have faith to keep living because we believe it is worth it.

I am not high, but slightly offended. We are reading what you are saying, but you arent seeming to take a second to analyze what we are saying when we are not agreeing.

 

[A Blind Guy]

clearly you and some others here have no idea about history. politicians have exploited religions for thousands of years to gain support, but they had no hand in creating it. sure, the emperor constantine helped mutate the sun cult into christianity to spread it through rome as a change from the thousands of other cults, but that in no way delegitamises the worship of the sun.

Because nobody would invent a religion in order to gain power. That is clearly not something a human would be capable of or willing to do.

There is more sarcasm loaded into those two sentences than I think is safe.

 

[A Blind Guy]

We cannot perform new experiments and develop new theories without developing a hypothesis, which is believing in what we think will happen.
Well we have faith to keep living because we believe it is worth it.

I am not high, but slightly offended. We are reading what you are saying, but you arent seeming to take a second to analyze what we are saying when we are not agreeing.

We develop a hypothesis based on what we think is going to happen, yes. But when that certain something doesn't happen we change our hypothesis to support the conclusion, and then we repeat the cycle a couple times until we figure out what happens if this this and this and if that never changes then we make it a law.

That is not belief, that is the goddamn scientific method.

 

[malakaix]

I don't think you realize just how much faith you actually have, it's just directed towards science.. what's actually driving us to develop new scientific theories, the belief that there is more then what we currently understand.

In any case, i think you've made your point and everyone's said what they can here.

 

[HeWhoHowls]

Because nobody would invent a religion in order to gain power. That is clearly not something a human would be capable of or willing to do.

Religion needs followers in order to have control.
The whole idea of using the church for socio-control is rediculous.
No man is forced upon religion or even a specific religion.
Sure a human being is capable n would try, we see it with any group of fanatics wether religous or not.
I don't think the masses are "sheeple" as I imagine you would look up the planet, we govern our own destiny n that can't be relinquished or detected by someone else.
Religion isn't choosing to follow, but to find out for yourself.

 

[A Blind Guy]

Religion needs followers in order to have control.
The whole idea of using the church for socio-control is rediculous.
No man is forced upon religion or even a specific religion.
Sure a human being is capable n would try, we see it with any group of fanatics wether religous or not.
I don't think the masses are "sheeple" as I imagine you would look up the planet, we govern our own destiny n that can't be relinquished or detected by someone else.
Religion isn't choosing to follow, but to find out for yourself.

You mean, the idea that religion is out their for socio control makes sense... People are very evil things. It is not beyond one of us to lie about a mystical sky wizard in order to gain power. Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that someone else hasn't already done it. Fucking Chaucer made a point about how all the people in the Church were corrupt, using only their positions to get power, in the Canterbury Tales. If someone can quote some fucking Russian novelist I can quote Chaucer.

Mormons are forced to follow their set of beliefs for fear of social suicide and banishment from the society they created. I would assume that people in islamic countries are "forced" to believe in allah or else they will get stoned, or some other horrific punishment.
Throughout the history of humanity we have seen people being forced to believe something or else suffer the consequences, usually murder at the hands of the people pushing that belief.
Just because there is no law saying "YOU MUST BELIEVE THIS" in our constitution doesn't mean that the social pressure is basically forcing you to believe it. And then there's the childhood indoctrination, which isn't forcing you to believe it, but instead is giving you one thing to believe in and you not knowing what the fuck is going on because you're 5 years old.

Oh, and God says that if you don't believe in him you go to hell. That seems like an ultimatum, almost bordering on forcing you to believe in him by threatening eternal damnation.
Which just goes to show you how petty this God character must be if he is actually real. Which he isn't.

And how is religion not choosing to follow? You believe this one thing and never deviate from it for fear of fire and brimstone. To think about other things is blasphemy, and to question the existence of God is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. You don't find out anything for yourself, you just read a book and base your entire fucking life and outlook on everything on it because God says so.

And I most definitely think of most of the world as sheeple. It is unfortunate, but true, that the majority of people on this planet are stupid as fuuuuucccckkkk.

 

[sssssssssss]

everyone likes to think they are really smart.

 

[HeWhoHowls]

"Mormons are forced to follow their set of beliefs for fear of social suicide and banishment from the society they created."
-No, the only thing that would happend is that ppl wouldn't call them Mormon. That's basically the whoe point of discontinuing a certain faith.

" I would assume that people in islamic countries are "forced" to believe in allah or else they will get stoned, or some other horrific punishment.
Throughout the history of humanity we have seen people being forced to believe something or else suffer the consequences, usually murder at the hands of the people pushing that belief. "

-that problem wasn't caused by the religion. Human interpretation n rationalization of the superconscious n God is never 100%correct n will never be. Us humans take on such a task when we put ourself into such holy matters. However, human perception is so varied that the results are just as drastic n extreme.
The varied results of us trying to piece all of this into our minds has saved lives, but has also slaughtered.

"Just because there is no law saying "YOU MUST BELIEVE THIS" in our constitution doesn't mean that the social pressure is basically forcing you to believe it. And then there's the childhood indoctrination, which isn't forcing you to believe it, but instead is giving you one thing to believe in and you not knowing what the fuck is going on because you're 5 years old."
-I can agree with you on this. But once again I can't help but see humanity as the primary problem. It's just as wrong for parents to indoctriniate their politics into their children. But don't blame the politics.


"Oh, and God says that if you don't believe in him you go to hell. That seems like an ultimatum, almost bordering on forcing you to believe in him by threatening eternal damnation."

-Once again, don't expect what you read to be pure after it has passed through so many hands. Belief in God doesn't mean I follow shallow dogma like you see it. Its a rule of nature, our fates, those who use their lives to heal themselves n others lead you down a road just like a life devoted towards harm. All roads have a destination or perhaps the journey itself is a sort of destination. Heaven n hell are a state of mind, not a cloud or bbq pit.

"And how is religion not choosing to follow? You believe this one thing and never deviate from it for fear of fire and brimstone. To think about other things is blasphemy, and to question the existence of God is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. You don't find out anything for yourself, you just read a book and base your entire fucking life and outlook on everything on it because God says so."

-religion tells you to find God for yourself, to not follow without question. Would the buddha go to Hell because he questioned the existence of suffering??
It's not about the reading material, but the feeling it instills from taking in universal life lessons. when you FEEL it, you know it is right, thus you follow that. not from submission, but from experience.
Religion isn't submission, but realizing that you are a part of the macrocosmical consciousness called God.
To realize the beauty in God that is instilled in us, you see the same beauty instilled in the rest of the universe.
We all worship the universe in one way or another. Don't get hung up on the "exacts" n non-esoteric messages.

"And I most definitely think of most of the world as sheeple. It is unfortunate, but true, that the majority of people on this planet are stupid as fuuuuucccckkkk."

-I find that alot of ppl are either waking up from their "sleep" of not knowing God, & if they aren't they are becoming interested in the true human potential. Perhaps you see everyone as fat stupid slobs because you are a pompous asshole??
I'm sorry for that but I just want you to consider it.
I'm really all for a good conversation that will get us somewhere without all the offense

this way seemed a whole lot easier.

 

[A Blind Guy]

this way seemed a whole lot easier.

In Religulous, he talked to some Mormons about what it would be like if they had said they didn't believe in Mormonism. Their answer was "it is social suicide". So I'm going to listen to them...

You say that human interpretation is the cause of violence in the name of religion.... So why doesn't God come down and tell all 6 billion of us exactly what he means. Because then we would know he exists, and then we wouldn't believe he exists so we would go to Hell? Ok, to solve that problem, why doesn't God tell one guy his word and have him write it down in a book. The immutable word of God, right there, for everyone to see.
They could call it... the Bible? Hmm...

You say the problem is people indoctrinating their children, not the religion. And well, sir, that is something I can agree with. The thing is, when you religiously indoctrinate a child, you tell them that this one thing is absolutely, unequivocally true, and that everything else is a lie, which makes them automatic enemies to everyone who does not subscribe to your local system of thought. Enemies that could never find common ground because now you're arguing over who's God is real, and that's something people are willing and ready to kill each other over.
As opposed to politics who say "I disagree with this because", hopefully.

So what do you base your belief in God off of? I thought the Bible was important? What's the point of the Bible if it's all metaphorical, or allegorical? That means that your God is metaphorical or allegorical, and therefore you should not believe in him.

Buddha would go to hell because he didn't believe in Jesus, a requirement of salvation in your holy book. When you "feel it", you don't know it's right, you feel it. And knowing that you're right means that you don't believe which means you go to hell, because knowledge is not belief, and belief is the reason why you go to heaven in the first place.

From what I've read about what you have to say, it sounds like you aren't a christian whatsoever. You just believe in a "God", or macrocosmical consciousness. Either you are a christian who picks and chooses what he wants to believe from the Bible like its a McFaith menu, or you are not a christian and use the bible strictly as metaphorical literature from which to derive life lessons. That is all well and good, but why bring the God part into it? That is a very complicated idea, and the simplest thing is often preferred....
And not to shit all over the morals in the bible but some roman slave was better at describing the golden rule than Jesus was. And so was confucius, and a large number of historical figures that existed hundreds of years before jesus was a twinkle in an author's eye.

I do not worship the universe. I worship nothing.

I see everyone as fat and stupid because I see a lot of fat and stupid, not because I am a pompous asshole. I am a pompous asshole because I am smart and try to keep myself in shape, because I don't want to be fat, and I am very happy that I am not stupid because I could very well have been.

 

[HeWhoHowls]

In Religulous, he talked to some Mormons about what it would be like if they had said they didn't believe in Mormonism. Their answer was "it is social suicide". So I'm going to listen to them...
-go head, doesn't surprise me that you would bring that movie up actually.

You say that human interpretation is the cause of violence in the name of religion.... So why doesn't God come down and tell all 6 billion of us exactly what he means.
-life is a test for each n evryones personal perception is weighed out in the end to see if spiritual/conscious progression has occurred over lifetimes. For God to come down like that would be like the teacher spoiling the quiz by giving you the answers. Thatd make life redundant basically.

The thing is, when you religiously indoctrinate a child, you tell them that this one thing is absolutely, unequivocally true, and that everything else is a lie, which makes them automatic enemies to everyone who does not subscribe to your local system of thought.
- I want you to notice that you also say that it is a person at fault here, not religion. Compare religion to a tool if you will. you could build a house for your family or dig your own grave. Dogma relies totally on someone to be there spreading it, consider it the propaganda of religion; mind-filth that humans incorporated into life lessons to keep you leashed by their rules, some of the oldest forms of subliminal messaging is found within religion.



So what do you base your belief in God off of? I thought the Bible was important? What's the point of the Bible if it's all metaphorical, or allegorical? That means that your God is metaphorical or allegorical, and therefore you should not believe in him.

To me, God is the infinite "bubble" of consciousness that ours originally came from. We come down as individuals in bodies to test to see if our true selves can outlast the lifelong battle with the ego. We learn life lessons that are not only true in this world, but in others. We grow n strengthen our ties to our own lil pieces of God within us to get in touch with that very macrocosmical superconscious. Allegories n esotericism was incorporated into religion at the VERY beginning, in order to keep the purity of it's teachings from ones looking to do harm as well as a way of keeping those indoctrinated ones into a secret "loop" of those who understand the mystical aspects of all religions.

When you "feel it", you don't know it's right, you feel it.
-when you feel a hot stove for the 1st time, does it not give you the knowledge that it will burn??

And knowing that you're right means that you don't believe which means you go to hell, because knowledge is not belief, and belief is the reason why you go to heaven in the first place.
-I don't get your view here. could you specify why belief n knowledge only exist seperately??

From what I've read about what you have to say, it sounds like you aren't a christian whatsoever. You just believe in a "God", or macrocosmical consciousness.
-2nd parts true. I believe religions arent exclusive to one another as they all do say the same thing. Jesus was a man who became enlightened, not born, & developed a strong connection to the macrocosm & could perform various superconscious abilities aka miracles. I find his tale & many others to be very important teachings for the progression of consciousness. To love Christ with all your heart is just as pure as one's love for the Buddha, its the love that's important.

Either you are a christian who picks and chooses what he wants to believe from the Bible like its a McFaith menu,
-dont turn this into a joke for you please.

but why bring the God part into it?
-Good question. many reasons tbh. to remind us where we came from n where we need to go. to remind us that there will be reward or consequence as it is a rule of multi-universal nature. to provide us with the highest form of love n comfort to fill us when we need it. to see yourself in everything, thus realizing the beauty of the self n the universe




I do not worship the universe. I worship nothing.
- I hope that from this conversation, you will now see the difference between human created propaganda & true teachings for the progression of the soul. I see that you have a true dislike for the religous institution & what it has created. I couldn't agree more. But that doesn't mean that we should discard n dismiss it all, because it all has it's roots in what is pure n what heals. that is what we spend our lives striving for as it is in this search that we find meaning, that knowledge is eternally beneficial. realize your true self n where you came from; only then will you see the lines blurring between science n spirituality. nature & consciousness go hand in hand

I really do appreciate the opportunity to conversate this.

 

[alasdairm]

I worship nothing.

I worship women.

(source)

are you two related?



alasdair