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Legitimacy of believing

its true, we cant know that a god does or doesnt exist. or at least for now. or maybe we can never know.

but to believe in a god is surely the close-minded option because you are saying 'im satisfied with this unfounded supernatural explanation for the universe', and this impedes all further investigation to find the actual truth.

plus, as i said before, i doesnt make logical sense because the creater would need a creator and so on.
 
the point is, to start a war, you need someone in power to mobilise people. this decision to mobilise an army is the cause of any war, not the pretexts used to make people fight it.

Certainly I agree with you 100% that it takes the ruling elite to mobilize for war. The point I was trying make was that mobilization would have been infinitely more difficult if not for the religious pretext for war.

^exactly. to say otherwise is like saying guns kill people.

That wasn't my argument. I was simply saying how easily religion can be manipulated to incite people to violence. In this case the Pope saying it was every Christians duty to kill an infidel.

Its not at all different from Christians killing doctors that give abortions for example.
 
its true, we cant know that a god does or doesnt exist. or at least for now. or maybe we can never know.

This is why I agree with Thomas Huxley when he said that the only honest thing one can be is an agnostic. It would be an assumption if you choose anything else which is why I consider myself to be an agnostic. However I do heavily lean towards atheism.

but to believe in a god is surely the close-minded option because you are saying 'im satisfied with this unfounded supernatural explanation for the universe', and this impedes all further investigation to find the actual truth.

I don't know if its that black and white that choosing god is the close minded option. If one can choose to believe in God and yet at the same time be open to the possibility that there is no God then I think he is being just as open minded as an atheist who thinks God could exist. But then again most people who believe in God don't even entertain the possibility of God not existing so I see your point.
 
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But then again most people who believe in God don't even entertain the possibility of God not existing so I see your point.



Fred, Christians believe they have a relationship with God. Its an intimate daily thing. Sometimes we might not ' feel' God but that
doesnt mean Hes not there. It says in the bible 'never will I leave you never will I forsake you' amoung other promises to be with us.

God promises to stay with us. So to say 'God doesnt exist', or ' God isnt here' is like a rejection. Lack of faith in his presence is a kind of rejection and it actually feels like a distance.. as does sin.

Its an intimate, precious, romantic, healing relationship. God is with me. God exists.<3
 
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If you mean why do I believe in God, I ' feel ' His presence. 'He' provides for me, protects me, comforts me, heals me.. gives me strength, love.. um..God teaches me.

Also God is a person. God has a personality.. I know Hes with me. I know He is
 
lol.. No Im not.. Could you do me a favour.. from what Ive told you. What is your perception of me.. sincerely Id love to know if you dont mind telling me.
 
Lazyscience, do you care to discuss?
- Why do you think religious practices are meaningless and utterly schizophrenic without the objective-deductive proof of a higher entity?
- Why do you assume that having a proof for the existence or non-existence of God is central for a religious attitude in life?
- How do you think a religious praxis functions in a person's life?
- Do you think one should abondon all symbolic practices because they serve no purpose, and religious people are just schizophrenic? Many other symbolic behaviour of man has no function either (e.g. a funeral has no purpose; or art has no purpose either).
 
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i don't think religion per se, has ever caused a war.

the cause of war is a ruling elite.

This.

There are as many ways to convince a fickle populace to pick up arms as there are charismatic and powerful heads of state with something to gain by waging war. If religion went away, I'm fairly certain corrupt megalomaniacs would still have no shortage of tactics and excuses for turning people against people, as they saw expedient. I've never researched this, but I'm fairly sure convincing someone that another person is their enemy (and deserves to be feared, hated, and even attacked) is pretty beginner level conartistry.

You want to cut down on wars? Encourage democracy and transparency, and make sure the populace have some livelihood besides fighting. And encourage freedom of speech, assembly, and belief, since a stable system isn't readily threatened by a lack of tight control over these things.
 
its not a legitamate reason to believe something that is not true just because it make you feel stronger or happier. it would make me happy to believe i have won the lottery but that doesnt make it true.

I feel like you've taken up a lost cause here if you're trying to argue that it isn't legitimate for a person to have faith in something. When we talk about reasons of something's existence the question of "how" is less relevant than "why" and I've stated perfectly good reasons as to why someone would have faith. I explain below why it's not a matter of evidence, so that nullifies that argument.

your logic here is flawed because it is an argument from ignorance. what you are basically saying is 'i cant understand how the universe came into being and i dont have and explanation, therefore a higher power (god) must exist'.
also your 'higher power' explanation immediately falls flat because it immediately poses a new question - what created the higher power? was the higher power created by another higher power and that higher power created by another higher power and so on. or was the first higher power in existence for eternity?

You must have me confused with someone else because I never "basically" said anything resembling what you've stated here. So check your own ignorance when talking about this in the future. You'll be hard pressed to find someone more appreciative of the sciences and everything they are capable of, but it's been essentially settled that the question of god cannot be proven one way or another by scientific inquiry. It's not a falsifiable question, even if we have solid evidence that the universe is the necessary answer to an equation, there's still no way to rule out a creator, and because there's no way to effectively rule it out there's no way science can answer it.

Also, what if I said the higher power is a network of living things and it simply sustains itself and grows from emergent properties as the network gains complexity, it, therefore, doesn't need a creator because we are all part creators and part creation. When you see two people lifting a long and heavy table that one person couldn't you'll know what I mean.
That's just one way of looking at it.

I'm a firm believer in the limits of superficial logic, and how its application is not called for in every circumstance. The world is not merely a clockwork mechanism, especially the beings that inhabits it.

Many other symbolic behaviour of man has no function either (e.g. a funeral has no purpose; or art has no purpose either).

This.

To deny the layers of creation is the height of ignorance, which is why I am desperate to distance myself from my atheistic tendencies because I believe that it has nothing positive to offer as a world-view beyond the simple practice of examining things skeptically, which is by no means a unique quality to atheism. My lack of enthusiasm for atheism has nothing to do with fear of cosmic retribution for me not conforming to some arbitrary dogma. I'd hate to be close-minded.
 
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^ I agree with your last paragraph. Except I'd replace 'closed-minded' with an even broader adjective: conclusive. I hate to be conclusive about this topic. To me, it's much more exciting to let the nature and identity of the Master Builder remain a perpetually insolvable mystery. There's something supremely awe-inspiring about any puzzle that teases us with clues, but ultimately stymies our every attempt to solve it.

And so yes, I have as little love for fundamentalists as I do for highly vocal atheists, because both are pretty sure they've got the Big Question solved, end of story. Boring, I say.
 
i understand that it is appealing for someone to have faith because it makes them feel better. i see that this is a reason why they would have faith but, it doesnt justify the legitamacy of that faith. that is my point.

If the question is what's the legitimacy in believing in these things, then it's to give a person a feeling of strength in themselves, and confidence, and many other positive mental effects that can allow people to accomplish things they wouldn't normally be able to accomplish. That's about half the reason I believe in a higher power, but no one religion yet. The ohter half would be that coincidence is hardly able to explain everything that happens, and that it's a very logical thing to have a higher power.

these are the two reason you gave for the legitimacy of belief in god that i responded to:
1. to give a person a feeling of strength in themseves
2. things cannot be explained by coincidence
 
plus, as i said before, i doesnt make logical sense because the creater would need a creator and so on.

Its not that complicated. God is eternal. Just like many atheists believe that the universe is eternal and uncaused. If the atheist can have an eternal, uncaused universe what cant the theist have an eternal and uncaused God?
 
what cant the theist have an eternal and uncaused God?
well i think that depends on what your definition of god is. if your definition is something like say, the god of islam, id say that sounds unlikely. but if youre saying god is the fabric of space or dark matter or something, then that sounds more plausable but then, is that really a god? im not sure im making too much sense here.

anyway, nobody knows how the universe came into existence, its still a big mystery.
 
Fred, Christians believe they have a relationship with God. Its an intimate daily thing. Sometimes we might not ' feel' God but that
doesnt mean Hes not there. It says in the bible 'never will I leave you never will I forsake you' amoung other promises to be with us.

God promises to stay with us. So to say 'God doesnt exist', or ' God isnt here' is like a rejection. Lack of faith in his presence is a kind of rejection and it actually feels like a distance.. as does sin.

Its an intimate, precious, romantic, healing relationship. God is with me. God exists.

This "argument" is not an argument at all its simply a personal appeal that since you feel these things that it is obvious that others should feel them too. It lacks reasoning and logic even by Christian Apologetic standards. And this is coming from a guy who was forced to take a Christian Apologetics class in high school.

By this rational I can claim that I feel the presence of Zeus and Apollo (although Apollo would make some sense as I am sitting in the sun right now :)) and that belief in them is just as legitimate as believing in Jebus whoops I mean Jesus. Or Jebus whatever doesn't really matter I feel their presence and I believe Jebus/Jesus/Zeus/Apollo/Aphrodite(I wish, shes a hottie ;))/Baal/Mars/every God in the Hindu pantheon loves me therefore you should all believe in all those Gods too. Why? Because I feel I have an intimate relationship with all them supernatural beings.
 
^ I agree with your last paragraph. Except I'd replace 'closed-minded' with an even broader adjective: conclusive. I hate to be conclusive about this topic. To me, it's much more exciting to let the nature and identity of the Master Builder remain a perpetually insolvable mystery. There's something supremely awe-inspiring about any puzzle that teases us with clues, but ultimately stymies our every attempt to solve it.

Hey MydoorsAreopen been missing you at the Problem of evil thread. As you know I have great respect for you and your opinions but I fail to see how this is a legitimate reason for believing in God. Just curious how you could turn this into a reason people should believe. Peace.
 
^ I'm getting back to that thread, don't worry. :)

As for the above, I'm not really offering it as a logical argument for why you or anyone else should believe in a higher power. I'm simply explaining my taste for the notion (but not necessarily any one particular conception) of a higher power, and a plan, behind all this.
 
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