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l-amphetamine salts: Why its still added to pharms

kisps

Bluelighter
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I've never been a big fan of Adderall due to the cracked out effect it produces. It is often asked why l-amphetamine is still being added to pharms like Adderall, after all it is notorious for producing a lot of negative physical and psychological side effects even at low doses. L-amphetamine, unlike d-amphetamine, does not selectively target dopamine transporters; instead, it targets both the norepinephrine and dopamine transporters. This means that l-amphetamine triggers norepinephrine release as well as dopamine release. If norepinephrine and dopamine have different cognitive effects from person to person, then the cognitive effects of d- and l-amphetamine must also differ from person to person.

That being said, I question any doctor who selectively prescribes Adderall over Dexedrine unless they can adequately explain the psychopharmacology of both enantiomers of amphetamine, and why they prefer one to the other. There is the argument that d-amphetamine has a higher abuse potential than d-, l-amphetamine mixtures, but I think that abuse is inevitable whether the patient is given either medication, they both produce euphoria that is similar enough influence abuse.
 
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Because seperating Optical isomers can be a bitch... and the commerical synth route is non sterioselective.
 
BilZ0r said:
Because seperating Optical isomers can be a bitch... and the commerical synth route is non sterioselective.
I wasn't asking a question, I was just explaining why l-amphetamine is used in conjunction with d-amphetamine. I highly doubt that the process of separating the isomers is difficult enough to influence doctors to just prescribe Adderall. I think most GP and psych doctors do this out of the popularity of a medication, and often forget that their job is to know as much as they can about the medications their patients are taking. Doctors are always reluctant to switch around and try different SSRIs with their patients if the patient requests to try a different choice. Wouldn't it be logical to start with d-amphetamine first, and try the mixed salts as the next option?

The l-amphetamine in Adderall makes it more of a selective medication due to its interaction with norepinephrine. Prescribing Adderall as a first choice is essentially like prescribing say, Effexor, an SNRI, before the patient tries an SSRI. Doctors work their way up in prescribing stimulants, one variable at a time. Doctors should not be given the right to prescribe any medication that they cannot adequately explain the psychopharmacology of. I'm not an MD, and I just explained some basic information about l-amphetamine and its purpose in one of the most popularly prescribed drugs in America. My proposal to those who are on on Adderall and can't stand it: if your doctor can't provide the information that I, a user on an internet forum explained, you may as well have any choice in stimulant medication as you please.
 
I highly doubt that the process of separating the isomers is difficult enough to influence doctors to just prescribe Adderall.

1 Doctors don't do the separating, they just prescribe from the list of medications available

2 Are you an organic chemist/biochemist etc? If not, don't underestimate how difficult how difficult, costly and wasteful carrying out separation of optical isomers is. If it was easy then all clandestine manufacturers of MDA would separate the (R)-MDA from the (S)-MDA then selectively N-methylate the (S)-MDA to (S)-MDMA, thereby making sure they had the most potent, and therefore most profitable isomer of both drugs
 
To the original poster, All med students must take Organic chemistry... something that it seems you don't have alot of understanding about. A doctor will be able to describe to the patient in simple terms if asked. I just won't expect your GP to brief you about stereochemistry and norepinephrine pathways if you know what I mean.
With that being said you raise some interesting points. I myself know nothing about amphetamine stereochemistry and resulting action but I will check it out. Do you have any resources, threads, anything about the topic?


In reference to fastandbulbous's comments I agree, selecting stereoisomers is expensive. Check out the prices on R-ALA rather than the racemic mixture. You are better off buying the racemic and eating twice the ALA. The same is true with amphetamine.

Rather than chiral seperation I would be looking for a stereospecific synthesis.
 
kisps said:
I wasn't asking a question, I was just explaining why l-amphetamine is used in conjunction with d-amphetamine. I highly doubt that the process of separating the isomers is difficult enough to influence doctors to just prescribe Adderall.


So what was the purpose of your post? Do you have a question? Like everyone above me mentioned, separating optical isomers is pretty difficult and costly.

Do you understand what an "isomer" is? I'm assuming you don't so I'll explain briefly..

Organic molecules are mostly made of carbon atoms, arranged in different ways. A carbon atom must have four bonds to it. A double bond, then, counts as two, and a triple bond counts as three. But most bonds are single bonds.


When a carbon atom in a molecule has four completely different things attached to it, that atom is called a "chiral center" ... "chirality" is the property of "handedness," so your left and right gloves are chiral copies of one another: you cannot superimopose them without flipping one over (rotating it through the third dimension), and even then you're not really superimposing them. They're just different. Chiral centers give rise to isomers because the order of the four things attached to them gives rise to molecules that are different in three-dimensional space (even though they look the same when the structure is drawn on paper).


Now, the idea of "d" and "l" isomers only applies to simple molecules with only one chiral center. If a molecule has two, or three, or more, chiral centers, it is
meaningless to talk about "d" or "l" isomers of it ... it doesn't just have two
isomers, it has 2^n isomers, where n is the number of chiral centers. In this case, chemists specify the "absolute configuration," by using either + and -, or "R" and "S," to specify the configuation around each chiral carbon atom.


But if there is only one chiral center, as is the case with amphetamine, which is a very simple molecule (the alpha-carbon is chiral), then there will only be two isomers. If we make a solution of each of the purified isomers, we'll find that the solution of one of them will rotate a beam of polarized light to the right. The isomer that does this is called the "dextrorotatory" one, from the Latin for "right-rotating," and abbreviated with the word "dextro" or a lower-case "d" as a prefix. The other isomer will rotate a beam of polarized light to the left. This isomer is called "levorotatory," from the Latin for "left-rotating," and abbreviated with the word "levo" or a lower-case "l" as a prefix. Because the isomers are differentiated from one another by their effect on light, they are called "optical isomers."


Optical isomerism has nothing to do with absolute configuration. In other words, you can't deduce the shape of the molecule in space from which way it rotates polarized light. It's a convenient kind of designation that is left over from the days when isomerism and chemical structure were just beginning to be understood.


When a drug, such as amphetamine is synthesized, as a general rule, the product will be a 50:50 mixture of the dextro and levo isomers (called a "racemic mixture"). The designation "d,l-amphetamine" is shorthand for "racemic amphetamine," that is, a half-and-half mixture of d-amphetamine and l-amphetamine. It is possible to synthesize the pure isomers directly, or the racemate can be resolved into them.


In pharmacology, different isomers often have different effects in the body. In the case of amphetamine, d-amphetamine is at least five times as potent as l-amphetamine in eliciting the release of dopamine, while l-amphetamine tends to release more norepinepherine and thus causes far less central stimulation and euphoria, and more unpleasant side effects like high blood pressure and sweating.


Now, regarding salts. Salts have nothing to do with isomers. Drugs are generally alkaloids, and, to make them soluble in water and easily absorbable, they are often prepared as salts. An alkaloid, by definition, used to be any naturally occuring compound with a nitrogen atom in it (now, the "naturally occuring" part of the definition has been dropped). The nitrogen confers a positive charge on the molecule, so it becomes possible to precipitate it from solution by adding a strong acid to form a salt of the drug (a salt is the product of the reaction of an acid and a base, to simplfy somewhat). With amphetamine, the acid used in pharmaceutical manufacturing is usually sulfuric acid (H2SO4), and this results in amphetamine sulfate being produced.
The phosphate, prepared by using phosphoric acid, is much better suited for injection, but injectable amphetamines are illegal in the US.


The component parts of a salt are ionically, not covalently, bound. This means that, in solution, "conjugated" (ionically bound) amphetamine sulfate ionizes into an amphetamine ion and a sulfate (SO4) ion. This must happen for the drug to work; the amphetamine sulfate won't have any effect ... only amphetamine itself fits in the right place. Different salts ionize at different rates, to different extents, at different pH, and so on. Finding the optimal salt to use is one part of "pharmaceutical formulation chemistry."


So Adderall is "a mixture of salts and isomers." But what is a mixture of half dl-amphetamine and half d-amphetamine? It is just 75% d-amphetamine and 25% l-amphetamine. So Adderall, to put aside the salt issue for a minute, is
really 3/4 dextroamphetamine (d-amphetamine) and 1/4 garbage.


The United States Pharmacopeia (USP) specifies the sulfate salts of amphetamine and d-amphetamine (when not qualified, "amphetamine" means "d,l-amphetamine"), but Adderall adds two additional salts ... the aspartate of amphetamine, and the saccharate of d-amphetamine. So there is a sense in which it contains four different "things," but really, in terms of the alkaloidial bases, it's just 3/4 d-amphetamine and 1/4 l-amphetamine. Adderall is unusual in that most drug products are either USP or NF (national formulary, the United States' other official list of drugs), while Adderall is neither.


Why were the other two, non-USP, salts added? Adderall was not always called "Adderall." The formula was originally named "Obetrol," back when amphetamines were handed out like candy as "diet pills." Amphetamine went on the market in the 1930's, and d-amphetamine in the 1940's, so they've both been off-patent for decades. The original manufacturer wanted something to distinguish Obetrol from the dozens of other amphetamine preparations on the market at the time, and they hit on this multiple salt idea. Still, although it was widely used, Obetrol was never as popular as Dexedrine or Biphetamine (black beauties).


The saccharate and aspartate salts in Adderall ionize more slowly than the sulfates. For this reason, Adderall seems to have a "smoother, longer-lasting" effect than, for example, Dexedrine or DextroStat (which are the same thing, but DextroStat comes in 10 mg tablets, while Dexedrine only comes in 5 mg).


Now, in view of that, you might ask, "Then why did they make Adderall-XR, if the formula is already slowly acting just in its nature?" To that, the only answer is ... drug company greed. There is absolutely no need for a sustained-release preparation of Adderall, since the ordinary tablets last plenty long enough to chemically straightjacket disruptive kids in school.

Hope that was helpful.
 
I'm pretty sure pdx has a long list of word files on his computer, ready to copy and paste into pretty much any thread... isomers, darvon, abcesses, etc....
Either that or a lot of spare time and a passion for writing
 
johanneschimpo said:
I'm pretty sure pdx has a long list of word files on his computer, ready to copy and paste into pretty much any thread... isomers, darvon, abcesses, etc....
Either that or a lot of spare time and a passion for writing


Nope, I'm at work; just posted it off the top of my head.
 
Thanks a lot for the informative post, Pdx.

However, I do not see how any of the posts here are realated to what kisps is talking about. The chemistry of Adderal and Dexedrine is irrelevent - what is relevent is that they are both available to doctors and that doctors can perscribe any of them without difficulty.

Case in point: Canada. We only have Dexedrine. There is no Adderal (as far as I know).
 
There is a reason I didn't post this in Advanced Drug Discussion, I wanted this post to be understood by those with a limited understanding of neuroscience and psychopharmacology. I am aware of the fact that amphetamine has one chiral center, thus it has 2 enantiomers. I have established a good, yet partially fragmented understanding of the chemistry, neuroscience and history of amphetamine, and am not in need of a one-post refresher course in the subject.

The truth of the matter is, after reading paradoxcycle's well-worded (and seemingly condescending :)) reply, I gave into my defensive side and am now writing this, an explanation of my original post. I posted this to provide a basis for future understanding of a much more intricate, involved subject.

I myself am not a fan of Adderall, in fact, I wish that it was taken off the market here in the US, as it is cardiotoxic at high doses (note: high doses, not prescribed doses). Regardless, some people respond to Adderall better than Dexedrine, most likely due to the effect that l-amphetamine has on norepinephrine. I have heard of people switching from Dexedrine to Adderall. My first post presented a theory as to what causes one to place preference on one drug over the other.

fastandbulbous said:
1 Doctors don't do the separating, they just prescribe from the list of medications available

2 Are you an organic chemist/biochemist etc? If not, don't underestimate how difficult how difficult, costly and wasteful carrying out separation of optical isomers is. If it was easy then all clandestine manufacturers of MDA would separate the (R)-MDA from the (S)-MDA then selectively N-methylate the (S)-MDA to (S)-MDMA, thereby making sure they had the most potent, and therefore most profitable isomer of both drugs

1. No shit, I never suggested that doctors perform the separation of the optical isomers of amphetamine. In fact, if anything, I was suggesting that doctors, for the most part (GP's in particular), do not know much of anything relating to the medications they prescribe.

2. SWIM is no chemist, but he has witnessed many nano-dreams and other drug related chemistry. SWIM used to test the optical activity of street product using optic filters from small LCD screens to determine purity of street gear. SWIM would move the solution between two filters, and SWIM's friend would note down which angle the liquid was brightest at. SWIM's friend explained to him that this was 'the poor man's optical purity test', allowing him to roughly determine whether the gear was dextrorotary or racemic. SWIM's friend taught him much of what he knows today about chemistry. I do not underestimate the difficulty in the process of separating optical isomers, 'its a crapshoot', as SWIM's friend would put it.

Now that I've got my point across, you should all re-read what I said (reference pdx's post for help if needed ;)), as its purpose was quite apparent.
 
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paradoxcycle said:
Nope, I'm at work; just posted it off the top of my head.
I'm gonna have to tell your boss you were tweaking at work and intellectually jihad'ing bluelighters on work time. ;D
 
SWIM used to test the optical activity of street product using optic filters from small LCD screens to determine purity of street gear.

That is no measure of purity in terms of the percentage of active compound in the substance you have. All that does is determine whether you have one or other of the optical isomers
 
^^...thanks F&B...I was wondering if anybody would catch that.
Nice.

I also think that this discussion is more suited to ADD, and the OP would get more informative responses there...

...feel free to move it where you guys/gals think it should go, though...:\
 
Well, depending on how it reacts between the filters, if it reacted the same way as water did, we would assume it was either racemic, or impure (pure cut). But yeah, purity obviously couldn't be accurately assessed through this process.
 
Doctors should not be given the right to prescribe any medication that they cannot adequately explain the psychopharmacology of

Well the doctors wouldn't be able to prescribe a lot of drugs, antidepressants: mirtazapine, nefazodone or tianeptine.... antiepiletpics like felbamate. How about anaesthetics? I mean seriously dude...

Oh and
L-amphetamine, unlike d-amphetamine, does not selectively target dopamine transporters
Where did you pull that from? Do you have a citation. I find it especially hard to believe seeing as (+)-amphetamine if it is anything is noradrenaline selective [1, 2, 3].
 
BilZ0r said:
Well the doctors wouldn't be able to prescribe a lot of drugs, antidepressants: mirtazapine, nefazodone or tianeptine.... antiepiletpics like felbamate. How about anaesthetics? I mean seriously dude...

Oh and Where did you pull that from? Do you have a citation. I find it especially hard to believe seeing as (+)-amphetamine if it is anything is noradrenaline selective .

Stahl, Stephen M. Essential Psychopharmacology: Neuroscientific Basis and Practical Applications. (2nd ed) pp.464 .
New York: Cambridge University Press (2000)

refer to the bottom line of the page:
norepi.jpg
 
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ok... i love you guys and concede to the fact you know volumes more than I but...

saying that it is difficult (and expensive) for pharmaceutical companies to sepererate l- and d- amphetamine entiomers is pure rediculousness.

Im surprised nobody has mentioned this.... It is difficult.... for a street chemist maybe... We arent talking about the street manifacture of racemic amphetamine nor the street isolation of l-amph from racemic amphetamine... heh. strictly pharmaceutical... unless im strangely mistaken :D )

but i know from personal knowledge that dexedrine costs almost NOTHING for these companies to mass manifacture. fuck.. amph is simple as fuck on its own to make and racemix seperation isnt rocket science for world class pharmaceutical mass-manifacture... espcially with the resources of such companies.

I understand its difficult... for a street chemist...

I myself know nothing about amphetamine stereochemistry and resulting action but I will check it out. Do you have any resources, threads, anything about the topic?

In reference to fastandbulbous's comments I agree, selecting stereoisomers is expensive. Check out the prices on R-ALA rather than the racemic mixture. You are better off buying the racemic and eating twice the ALA. The same is true with amphetamine

i suggest reading up on pharmaceutical manifacture and calculate the costs of isolatig L's from racmemic mixtures on a very large scale in a world-class facility

"You are better off buying the racemic and eating twice the ALA. The same is true with amphetamine" ??????????

Refer to the countless other posts mentioning the effects of l-amph on NE where d-amph does not....

Also... ALA/R-ALA are 100-200mg per dose... and presumably more difficult to manifacture than amphetanine. In the stores i go to R-ALA is 75% more expensive than ALA.... and still inexpensive. Amphetamine is so incredibly easy to make that its almost dirt cheap on the street... and in a pharmaceutical manifacturing facility producing mass ammounts of amphetamine using state of the art machines and dirt cheap access to all/any desirable chemcical/reagents.... fuck, they could mix the resulting amphetamine with a bonding compound and use it as cost effective grout. A street chemist can go through all the bullshit of purchasing pseudo (at store price... maked WAY up from what it costs the store to buy retain and WAAAAAY beyong what it costs these same/similair chemical manifacturers to make) and STILL make HUGE quantities of meth for extremely cheap.
The cost isolating the d- entiomer is negligable at best. Considering the huge markup (naturally), all this price talk is simply retarded.

2 Are you an organic chemist/biochemist etc? If not, don't underestimate how difficult how difficult, costly and wasteful carrying out separation of optical isomers is. If it was easy then all clandestine manufacturers of MDA would separate the (R)-MDA from the (S)-MDA then selectively N-methylate the (S)-MDA to (S)-MDMA, thereby making sure they had the most potent, and therefore most profitable isomer of both drugs

Again... we arent talking about clandestine manifacture. the topic is "l-amphetamine salts: Why its still added to pharm"
Yes... im sure isolating optical isomers is very difficult for you to accomplish in your clandestine MDMA and amphetamine labs. Unfortunitely the topic is "l-amphetmine salts: why is it still added to pharms".

Ill end it with reiterating that it costs pharmaceutical companies/chemical manifactuerers virtually nothing to bulk manifacture and isolate d-amphetamine. So the cost thing you guys keep reiterating has no bearing on a topic regarding pharmaceutical amphetamine manifacure or pharmaceutical amphetamine manifacture PERIOD



i personally like adderall when i got shit to do and want to essentiall "tweak out" and move 1,000mph (ty NE). Adderall also has more
of a rush and a push that i enjoy/utilize
i personally love dexedrine for every other circumstance where I dont want the double-expresso aspect and just need to relax,
focus, and study (or whatever ;) )
 
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Adderall contains d-amhpetamine and l-amphetamine in the ratio of 3 and 1 so it's not a matter of difficult isomers separating (why would ephedrine and pseudoephedrine be sold as different medications?). They add it at fixed dose on purpose. Chemists that produce drugs for the black market don't care about separating isomers as far as racemic mixture doesn't completely lose its abuse potential.
 
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