Ethnobotanicals Kratom psychedelic properties?

[Mr. Kite]

Hey ho, all,

Erowid effects page included "vivid waking dreams." Is there a particular variety prone to tripping? I like red kratom and of course anything with an elevated 7-oh ratio. Have taken way too much, never tripped on green or red. Anyone have secret trip recipe?

 

[brokedownpalace10]

More like a dissociative than an indole psychedelic. Dreamlike, not uber bright, visions accompanied by nausea. You feel OK if you remain still but feel nauseous if you move at all. Now that I have an even mild Kratom tolerance, I can't seem to get to that place anymore.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

It has a lot of effects but psychedelic effects were one that it never displayed. It neither effected my dreams noticeable. Tried most common strains, direct from the source so about twice as strong as the best quality I can buy now.

But Borneo red vain was my fav. Kratom strain so have extensive experience with it. And baring non them selve did combine good with psychedelics though ime.

 

[Didgital]

Kratom is about as psychedelic as morphine. If you consider any altered state as psychedelic than maybe.

 

[Jabberwocky]

kratom is not by any means psychedelic, it can cause vivid CEVs, but to a lesser degree than actual opioids like morphine, IMO

very high doses of kratom have given me internal hallucinations, borderline psychosis, and many other weird things, but that's sort of a different thread

"internal hallucinations" /=/ psychedelic

and pure 7-OH is much less "psychedelic" (if we're using that term) than regular kratom powder

kratom has a lot of weird effects and side effects that are almost, but not quite, psychedelic....

 

[Jabberwocky]

also, never believe any kratom vendor that claims to sell any leaf powder kratom containing higher than average levels of 7-OH. That's a sure sign of a very unscrupulous shady vendor.

Virtually all plant kratom has 0.001% less of 7-OH. It's insignificant. There is really no such thing as powdered leaf kratom that is super dank in 7-OH levels.

There are obviously things such as enhanced leaf, but that's sold at much higher prices.

 

[daturetard]

I feel like shit drifts/is more prone to disappearing, not sure if it's just me but if I look in one place long enough shit starts shifting, even when sober, but kratom does that to an extent I don't even have to stare. It's kind of rare/needs the right dose.

 

[Didgital]

even when sober

This yo. I think after taking enough psychedelics you can let things shift/blur/distort, even when sober. Kratom or any substance can amplify this...

I don't really consider it a psychedelic by any means, but I haven't isolated and bioassyed every single individual alkaloid either.

 

[Esperighanto]

This yo. I think after taking enough psychedelics you can let things shift/blur/distort, even when sober. Kratom or any substance can amplify this...

I don't really consider it a psychedelic by any means, but I haven't isolated and bioassyed every single individual alkaloid either.

I just want to back this up from personal experience, I've got wicked HPPD and kratom exacerbates it quite a bit.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I feel like shit drifts/is more prone to disappearing, not sure if it's just me but if I look in one place long enough shit starts shifting, even when sober, but kratom does that to an extent I don't even have to stare. It's kind of rare/needs the right dose.

I've got wicked HPPD and kratom exacerbates it quite a bit.

Yeah, high doses of kratom really fuck with my vision in weird ways. Gives me significantly increased visual noise/snow, object drifting, and I also sometimes see circular flashes of light with my eyes closed (usually blue or white). Frankly it feels closer to neurotoxicity than psychedelia.

When I had kratom related symptoms of psychosis, my HPPD was quite extreme.

 

[daturetard]

Frankly it feels closer to neurotoxicity than psychedelia.

Funnily I think I know exactly what you mean. When I was younger and had no opioids or weed I smoked oriental poppy tar and had some very weird visuals as well as palpitations. One of my less proud moments.

 

[Esperighanto]

Yeah, high doses of kratom really fuck with my vision in weird ways. Gives me significantly increased visual noise/snow, object drifting, and I also sometimes see circular flashes of light with my eyes closed (usually blue or white). Frankly it feels closer to neurotoxicity than psychedelia.

When I had kratom related symptoms of psychosis, my HPPD was quite extreme.

Personally I'd say they remind me more of how dissociatives spark up my HPPD, but I'm also incredibly sensitive to opioids in general. Iirc kratom has a very small, though noticeable, amount of NMDA antagonism. Tianeptine also kicked it up a little bit but differently, tianeptine induced similar HPPD flare-ups to tetrahydroharmine, and given they both share SSRI qualities I'm assuming that's what's to blame there.

 

[daturetard]

Personally I'd say they remind me more of how dissociatives spark up my HPPD, but I'm also incredibly sensitive to opioids in general. Iirc kratom has a very small, though noticeable, amount of NMDA antagonism. Tianeptine also kicked it up a little bit but differently, tianeptine induced similar HPPD flare-ups to tetrahydroharmine, and given they both share SSRI qualities I'm assuming that's what's to blame there.

Nmda antagonism is inherently neurotoxic iirc
Also, THH is an MAOI not SSRI, unless there is new literature. These are both antidepressants which increase the amount of serotonin in your brain but have very different mechanisms. Monoamine oxidase is an enzyme that breaks down many endogenous chemicals (monoamines) that are in food, inhibiting them allows the dopamine, serotonin, tyrosine, etc. In your food into your blood. SSRIs stop (slow) the reuptake of serotonin leaving more to bind to ht2. You probably already knew this and shit but I don't think THH is ssri.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Personally I'd say they remind me more of how dissociatives spark up my HPPD, but I'm also incredibly sensitive to opioids in general. Iirc kratom has a very small, though noticeable, amount of NMDA antagonism. Tianeptine also kicked it up a little bit but differently, tianeptine induced similar HPPD flare-ups to tetrahydroharmine, and given they both share SSRI qualities I'm assuming that's what's to blame there.

Kratom "visions" are similar to Morphine dreams in quality, but have a weird, dissociative kind of content.
Light, pastel, dreamy images of a clown face appearing on your privacy fence (which you are seeing with your eyes closed on the couch).
But, to get there you have to be feeling that "overdid the opioids" nausea. Not exactly recommended.

 

[daturetard]

Oh and what you guys are thinking of in terms of nmda antag is rychnophilline (spelling?) It is in cats claw too.

 

[daturetard]

But, to get there you have to be feeling that "overdid the opioids" nausea. Not exactly recommended.

A few things to do to get around the nausea are extracts and cats claw adds to the rychnophilline content without having to take more kratom (purgative)

 

[Esperighanto]

Nmda antagonism is inherently neurotoxic iirc
Also, THH is an MAOI not SSRI, unless there is new literature. These are both antidepressants which increase the amount of serotonin in your brain but have very different mechanisms. Monoamine oxidase is an enzyme that breaks down many endogenous chemicals (monoamines) that are in food, inhibiting them allows the dopamine, serotonin, tyrosine, etc. In your food into your blood. SSRIs stop (slow) the reuptake of serotonin leaving more to bind to ht2. You probably already knew this and shit but I don't think THH is ssri.

I'm quite familiar with MAOIs personally, THH is a RIMA but it's also an SSRI according to this citation: Morales-García JA, de la Fuente Revenga M, Alonso-Gil S, Rodríguez-Franco MI, Feilding A, Perez-Castillo A, Riba J (July 2017). "The alkaloids of Banisteriopsis caapi, the plant source of the Amazonian hallucinogen Ayahuasca, stimulate adult neurogenesis in vitro". Scientific Reports

NMDA antagonists also aren't inherently neurotoxic, but most that are recreationally used are. Arylcyclohexylamines and diarylethylamines for example, but I don't believe memantine, bromantane nor agmatine are, just off the top of my head. I also don't believe nitrous oxide would exhibit neurotoxicity if it didn't plummet B12 levels, so if there's an analog of it that doesn't ravage B12, maybe that too.

Oh and what you guys are thinking of in terms of nmda antag is rychnophilline (spelling?) It is in cats claw too.

I have smoked cats claw and drank it as tea and experienced what I'd refer to as the most barely noticeable dissociation possible, similar to agmatine in high doses. It was oddly effective for getting chores and shit done. This was during a period of my life where I was using a ton of random ethnobotanicals, my "ayahuasca era". I found cats claw much less impressive than high potency kanna extracts, blue/pink lotus, b caapi and its extracted/isolated alkaloids, psilocybin containing mushrooms, coca, ephedra, and HBWR. Those all kind of won my attention during that point in my life, but now knowing there's NMDA antagonism in cats claw I want to try to figure out the most optimal extraction method here if I can.

I brought up that list because it was everything I found meaningfully psychoactive and useful in the ethnobotanical space, and I made a grid out of them, then trying each in combos with one another, then selecting the interesting two-drug combinations and exploring how to expand them from there. Cats claw I tried with almost everything on that list above, and noticed it synergized with lotus and caapi a little bit, but not to an insane degree, and there's also very little that doesn't synergize with caapi imo.

Have you ever used cats claw alongside kratom? How was it?

 

[daturetard]

I'm quite familiar with MAOIs personally, THH is a RIMA but it's also an SSRI according to this citation

Very interesting to learn.

NMDA antagonists also aren't inherently neurotoxic, but most that are recreationally used are. Arylcyclohexylamines and diarylethylamines for example, but I don't believe memantine, bromantane nor agmatine are, just off the top of my head. I also don't believe nitrous oxide would exhibit neurotoxicity if it didn't plummet B12 levels, so if there's an analog of it that doesn't ravage B12, maybe that too.

Huh. Good to know. I've always wanted to try memantine and now even more. How is agmatine?

ethnobotanicals, my "ayahuasca era". I found cats claw much less impressive than high potency kanna extracts, blue/pink lotus, b caapi and its extracted/isolated alkaloids, psilocybin containing mushrooms, coca, ephedra, and HBWR

It's nothing crazy and I've taken it in high doses with similar effect to low doses. It's mild at best, but makes combos better. Easier to let go of anxiety and makes body loads less intense ime. I've done all of those and more with the exception of ephedra, how is that?

Have you ever used cats claw alongside kratom? How was it?

I have. It's nice. It's similar to kratom alone but slightly more detached if that makes sense. It's still nothing crazy, just a good potentiator, you dont need as much kratom and less nausea due to that. I've mixed it with opium too. That's fun.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

THH is a RIMA but it's also an SSRI according to this citation:

And doesn't even inhibit gut MAO very well, IIRC.

I brought up that list because it was everything I found meaningfully psychoactive and useful in the ethnobotanical space, and I made a grid out of them, then trying each in combos with one another, then selecting the interesting two-drug combinations and exploring how to expand them from there. Cats claw I tried with almost everything on that list above, and noticed it synergized with lotus and caapi a little bit, but not to an insane degree, and there's also very little that doesn't synergize with caapi imo.

Have you ever used cats claw alongside kratom? How was it?

I'd love to see that grid, if you could upload it.

 

[Esperighanto]

@brokedownpalace10 The grid was on my apartment living room's whiteboard but if you have any questions about any of those combinations I can pull up my old notes and let you know what I found, or if you have questions about what I found most useful for x, y or z feel free to ask. If it branches enough I might make it a new thread to keep this thread more on topic, I try not to derail shit too hard on bluelight.

Edit: I forgot to mention, I could barely get THH on its own to potentiate Diplopterys cabrerana, Psychotria viridis, nor Acacia confusa enough to function similarly to harmaline or harmine for ayahuasca. Taking a ton of it though would make me feel like I'd taken a weirdly serotonin-y stimulant, not an empathogen but more like things that enhance SERT. If you removed the commonalities between methylphenidate and 4-fluoromethylphenidate and just kept that weird subtle serotonin-y edge, that would be a very close comparison.

THH also makes acid and psilocybin containing mushrooms dramatically more clear headed and it's a bit sharper in general, and taking it before vaporizing breakthrough doses of DMT led to a much higher degree of recall after waking up from the breakthrough.

@daturetard Agmatine and memantine are similar, they remind me of a 10-20mg dose of ketamine like half an hour after dosing. It's a really subtle dissociation that I'd compare to doing a small dab, where my normally scattered thoughts become super focused, as if the drug has induced a cognitive form of tunnel vision, if that makes sense. Ephedra is also a great stimulant, in college I would buy Ephedrine tablets and rail them, Ephedra tea is much more gentle and less aggressive feeling but still very useful. It was an invaluable tool for tapering off of Bupropion while minimizing withdrawals, and it's also just as solid as coca tea for taking a caffeine tolerance break.