Kosovo Declares Independence

[Transcendence]

^Well, who didn't see that coming?

 

[faris]

^^ me? given that i have no knowledge of the history of the situation, what did the US do that gave them a reason to burn the embassy? i mean, the US isn't the only country to recognize the independence...

 

[Mandark]

^^ me? given that i have no knowledge of the history of the situation, what did the US do that gave them a reason to burn the embassy? i mean, the US isn't the only country to recognize the independence...

But everyone knows it's the USA that decides. If they recoginze it, Kosovo will be independent, if they don't, it won't be. Other countries' voices are just symbolical.

 

[The_Idler]

which is why the world hates you ^_^

 

[Kalash]

Well, of course, we don't. We don't need alot of things. We don't need the internet, or cable TV. We don't need a police force or fire department, they're not really necessary to our survival as a species. At this point we don't national healthcare or HMO's or even hospitals to continue to not become extinct.

One Euro equals 82 Serbian Dinars, which I assume they are still using in Kosovo right now. Do the Kosovoans (is that what they'll be called?) need to use the Euro to survive? No, but if they want to have more access to cable TV, the internet, or affordable healthcare, it might be a good idea.

You're trying to compare two completely different things...

Voluntary services (cable, health care, internet, etc... things people pay for because they want to use them...)

And governments.
People who point guns at you and demand money... In the name of protecting your life, liberty, and property; a criminal protection racket.

You can't compare the two.

 

[Infinite Jest]

^^ me? given that i have no knowledge of the history of the situation, what did the US do that gave them a reason to burn the embassy? i mean, the US isn't the only country to recognize the independence...

Kosovan independence is pretty much predicated on Kosovo being full of NATO troops. Which pretty closely equates to the US. Plus remember the US bombed Serbia for quite a while in the late 90s. (Not *just* the US, clearly. Possibly the other countries involved don't have embassies in Serbia; or possibly they'll be attacked later?)

 

[The_Idler]

Possibly the US is just most hated, because it's not even in Europe.

 

[mulberryman]

You can't compare the two.

Yes, I can actually, even though you are entirely correct they are entirely different things. They both exist though in a complex system called society in which government plays a vital role.

I have no idea exactly why ppl have become so pissed off in Kosovo and Serbia lately, but I can say with absolute certainty that their societal system has obviously become highly unbalanced to the point in which certain ppl in it feel that their government has become unfair to them. If this sentiment is strong enough amongst enough of them, they will become fully independent, if it isn't, they wont, its as simple as that.

 

[Transcendence]

which is why the world hates you ^_^

And it's also why we don't give a shit! Funny, that.

 

[IAmJacksUserName]

Your attitude with regards to the Serbs is right in line with mainstream propaganda, and that's where I see the parallel with Iraq.

"Mainstream propaganda?" Just because a theory is widely accepted doesn't make it propaganda.

In the Bosnian conflict all 3 sides committed ethnic cleansing - that is the nature of a civil war. As for Kosovo, the only ethnic cleansing going on there is that which is being committed by the Albanians against Serbs, Gypsies and other minorities

Again, I'm not trying to paint a picture of a bunch of saints up against the Serb boogeymen. But the vast majority of the people killed were Bosniaks and Croats. It's a bit hard to downplay the significance of the Siege of Sarajevo, the Srebrenica massacre (which was labeled genocide by the Hague), etc. As for Kosovo, I'm not apologizing for the KLA, but the Serbs weren't given much of a chance to commit ethnic cleansing in light of NATO's intervention.

Because otherwise we'd be redrawing borders all the time. New conflicts would break out constantly. That's why we have international law, territorial sovereignty, etc.

The Albanians already have a state (Albania.) They have no legal or historic right to any lands in Kosovo. Why should Serbs who have lived in Kosovo for generations be forced to live in an Islamic state? Do you still think that Kosovo Albanians should be rewarded with independence if their majority population is founded upon ethnic cleansing?

I'm not opposed to redrawing borders when old ones become obsolete. As I said before, the vast majority of the

Prior to American meddling, the % of people in Kosovo supporting independence was much lower than it is now. The "Kosovo Liberation Army" was recognized as a terrorist organization. The sponsorship of the KLA and the endorsement of secession by America and her NATO allies exacerbated what was already a difficult situation.

At the end of the day the whole fiasco isn't really about independence at all. There are dozens of regions across the world with even stronger claims for independence which are totally ignored. The real issue here is American imperialism

That's what the Serbs and Russians would like you to believe. But do you really think America gives a damn about Serbia or Kosovo? Clinton had his own personal and political reasons for bombing Kosovo and Serbia in 1999, but there's very little interest in the region for the U.S.

 

[IAmJacksUserName]

This is not true. 100 years ago Albanians made no more than 10% of the population of Kosovo.

I'm just going by what's on Wikipedia. If you'd like to present a more reliable source, I'm all ears.

Is the fact that they have been breeding so fast, coupled with immigration, sufficient reason to make Kosovo theirs? If Poles start breeding so fast in some region of the UK, they can declare independence as well?

What's done is done. Maybe some day the Brits will have to secede part of the U.K. to the Poles. They should think about that now, not when the Poles are already well established.

And what about other ethnic groups like Basques? Albanians already have their own country, Albania. Basque people don't have any. If they declare independence in Spain, will the EU accept it?

I couldn't tell you much about EU politics in relation to the Basques, but there's a strong case that they should.

But the most important thing is the fact that this declaration is against the international law, as the United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said. And the fact that the USA supports it doesn't change it.

Well, the legality is open for debate. In any case, I'm far more concerned with the moral and ethical considerations than with legal ones.

 

[The_Idler]

The issue, friends, is not whether enough people in the country feel strongly enough to separate (they do not, evidently),
but whether certain external forces have the right to intervene with a rebellion within a sovereign state.

If there was a pro-eastern uprising in, say, Japan,
which, on it's own, could be suppressed by the government,
but was backed and militarily aided by the government of China,
how would the benevolent Americans feel about this?

Surely the pro-East rebels within Japan have a right to determination!?
Hey,
why not just let China go in,
practically ensure the military success of a coup,
divide the country into two halves,
one pro-Eastern
and one pro-Western?

That way we'll have two countries both next to eachother, with a terrible and bitter hate between them, totally opposite ideologies,
one backed by the East, and one backed by the West!

Oh but wait....
America couldn't let THAT happen.
Why?
Because America would OBVIOUSLY....
NEVER do anything like that, herself!


ohnowait......
<_<
>_>


It's somehow saddening that it must be explained that;
America does not always do things based upon whether they are ACTUALLY right.


You really are just like us, the British.
we've been protecting our overseas political and economic interests,
for hundreds of years.

In just the same way you guys have!


Military support for rebels,
compromise of nationalist government,
give "power" to the rebels,
name terms.


Only difference is,
We didn't pretend we were "right",
we only said what we would do,
and then asked if anyone was going to argue with it,
and then crushed the French.
Again.


It makes me cringe when the American government (again, and again...) lamely pretends to be righteously fighting for morality and justice; freedom and liberty.

I would be so much prouder of your country if you'd all just admit to being a brutal and self-serving empire,
and get on with it.

Things don't really change,
We've done it for a looooong time....
It's your turn now,
stop pretending it's not,
and get on with it.

 

[The_Idler]

It's sad that you gotta explain this to them, isn't it?

 

[quiet roar]

The serbs claimed half of Bosnia in the same manner as the albanians are claiming Kosovo: Fuck 'em.

 

[Danguba]

I'm not opposed to redrawing borders when old ones become obsolete.

Excellent point. And because Serbian border isn't the only 'obsolete' one on Balkans, border of Bosnia should be redrawn as well. It is obvious that Bosnian Serbs want secession and closer relation with Serbia, and there's no more basis for arguments which prevent them from doing so now.

And next stop? Macedonia of course.

 

[Kalash]

I'll again ask why we need national governments.

They do not ensure order - other than to prevent local tribes from warring upon other local tribes (towns/cities).


The actual border?
Why does it matter?

Why do people need to divide themselves into groups?
Different teams - by which they may be manipulated through fear and hatred to kill others so similar to each other that they wouldn't know they were at war if they met on the street in a different nation.

Dissolve governments/nations...
Dissolve national identity...

Dissolve international war.


This is tough though.
As it goes against some of my fundamental beliefs...
But I can argue for globalism.

The problem I have is that there is a belief we need BIG governments to keep the world in line.

The people/markets are very self regulating.
Local police forces could take care of crime (theft/murder/violence - REAL crime, where the RIGHTS of an individual are infringed upon by another)... Even private security forces operating on a fully voluntary basis...
No more criminal protection rackets...


There are so many benefits to abolishing government completely...

And I suppose that is why I oppose globalism - I don't think any one government should be in charge.
I think we need to just get rid of governments/teams...

And stop letting government instigated fear and hatred lead to bloodshed where neither side wins.

 

[Danguba]

I'll again ask why we need national governments.

Like Thiers said to the assembly: It divides us the least.

 

[pkt]

This is fucked up....

Kosovo is Serbian territory and their claim to independence is a joke.

How would you feel if someone wanted to take away your country?

Ethnic cleansing? No, thats called war and its no worse than what the US have done in iraq.

 

[mulberryman]

^ I don't see the comparison. America has no business being in Iraq, and has no business being in Serbia either. This is between the Serbs and the Kosovoans, noone's trying to take away anyone's country there.

Honestly, I think they'd probably be better off if they stayed part of Serbia, but its really their call and their challenge. i can't imagine how f*cked up Detroit would be if it were to secede from the US, but maybe thats not a fair comparison.

 

[Mandark]

Honestly, I think they'd probably be better off if they stayed part of Serbia, but its really their call and their challenge.

No, it's a challenge for the EU, because it is us who will have to pay for their existence. They have virtually no means to survive on their own.