• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ
  • PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

Health Ketamine bladder damage - treatment with pentosan polysulfate sodium?

DragonFly31

DragonFly31

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
451
Location
England
Years ago I took ketamine fairly regularly.

At the time I slowly begun to experience a growing pollakiuria (abnormally frequent passage of relatively small quantities of urine). This was in 2007-2008, before the damages K does to the bladder were known. How could I have known?

I sought help from urologists at the time, but because the condition wasn't known (even though I told them about the drugs) they couldn't find what was wrong with me, or provide me with relief.

After having done another round of research today, I saw that this condition could potentially be treated with pentosan polysulfate sodium (PPS), which helps restore bladder lining. But the harm reduction sites say that evidence to that effect is sparse, even inconclusive.

Can anyone here testify to improved bladder function solely with treatment with pentosan polysulfate sodium?

This will help me to choose whether to start this treatment.
 
I have no clue, first time hearing about this sort of treatment. Would be amazing if if it actually proves effective. I'll be on the look out.
 
I can't speak with much authority, but given that "ketamine bladder" mimics interstitial cystitis pretty closely, PPS could be a reasonable treatment for it. However, after perusing some non-scientific lit, it seems that PPS is not all that effective at treating IC, so even if the conditions were completely identical, it still wouldn't be a particularly great treatment. However, some treatment could be better than no treatment, so consulting a urologist about it would be a good idea.

If you haven't visited it yet, this website is a good resource: http://www.ketaminebladdersyndrome.com/KBS/Welcome.html
 
fouresomide (sorry for spelling) is a dieuretic which eases symptoms. I would guess that it helps by diluting urine stored in the bladder, so maybe other deiuretics are beneficial as well... Even cranberry juice
 
kittyinthedark said:
I can't speak with much authority, but given that "ketamine bladder" mimics interstitial cystitis pretty closely, PPS could be a reasonable treatment for it. However, after perusing some non-scientific lit, it seems that PPS is not all that effective at treating IC, so even if the conditions were completely identical, it still wouldn't be a particularly great treatment. However, some treatment could be better than no treatment, so consulting a urologist about it would be a good idea.

If you haven't visited it yet, this website is a good resource: http://www.ketaminebladdersyndrome.com/KBS/Welcome.html
Click to expand...

Yes, thanks for the feedback. I am in the process of consulting a fourth urologist in as many years. I think this one is starting to get it...

The site you mention is good, I just wish I'd known all this stuff many years ago.

The mechanisms of action is very intriguing. I met up recently with someone who was a huge ket-head, much bigger than I. He consumed daily dosages of several grams, for years. And he, to this day, has never had any issues. Apparently, he stopped taking K because it stopped affecting him...
 
You can also consider some herbal approaches, like uva ursi, cramp bark, hydrangea root, yarrow, and marshmallow root. In tincture or decocted form, many are demulcents that sooth bladder lining, and help with nerve pain. Juniper berry and corn silk help too.

I am dubious as to whether or not pharmaceutical approaches could work for ketamine related damage. Pharmaceuticals target pathologies only, and not bodily regeneration.
 
Foreigner said:
You can also consider some herbal approaches, like uva ursi, cramp bark, hydrangea root, yarrow, and marshmallow root. In tincture or decocted form, many are demulcents that sooth bladder lining, and help with nerve pain. Juniper berry and corn silk help too.

I am dubious as to whether or not pharmaceutical approaches could work for ketamine related damage. Pharmaceuticals target pathologies only, and not bodily regeneration.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. I am most willing to give it a try. Can you recommend something specifically? You mention quite a lot of plants, maybe you could make a specific suggestion, plus some recommendation for periodicity. I assume, if you respond, that you know what you are talking about, and I won't curl up on the floor and die a horrible death... ;)
 
DragonFly31 said:
Yes, thanks for the feedback. I am in the process of consulting a fourth urologist in as many years. I think this one is starting to get it...
Click to expand...
I totally know how hard it is to find doctors that "get it"... I hope this one works out for you.

Have you seen these links? They have some more details regarding Foreigner's suggestions.
http://www.healthcommunities.com/interstitial-cystitis/alternativetreatment.shtml
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1476005/
 
I don't want to digress too much but I have a valid medical question about another dissociative I use farily regularly. DXM makes it very difficult to urinate a bit it doesn't seem to persist longer than the drugs duration but overall bladder seems to be slow on the draw as it were. I am getting older and not much else has started to go terribly wrong yet but I am concerened about the effects DXM may have had on my my nephrological system.

My usage has been consistent for about 9 years maybe on average once a month in high doses.

MXE doesn't seem to cause renal distress at all but I don't use it that often. Ketamine I haven't used in a long time.
 
DragonFly31 said:
This is interesting. I am most willing to give it a try. Can you recommend something specifically? You mention quite a lot of plants, maybe you could make a specific suggestion, plus some recommendation for periodicity. I assume, if you respond, that you know what you are talking about, and I won't curl up on the floor and die a horrible death... ;)
Click to expand...

I would try uva ursi and cramp bark to start. Get them in tincture form if possible. If not, then buying the raw herbs and decocting in a bit of water is useful. Start small and increase dosage with time. Take daily and stop after 2 weeks. Listen to your body and see if symptoms get any better.

Herbalism is not an exact science. You start small and experiment with varying dosages depending on what your body needs. If you don't get results from certain plants you can move on to others... which is why I provided a list.
 
Thou said:
I don't want to digress too much but I have a valid medical question about another dissociative I use farily regularly. DXM makes it very difficult to urinate a bit it doesn't seem to persist longer than the drugs duration but overall bladder seems to be slow on the draw as it were. I am getting older and not much else has started to go terribly wrong yet but I am concerened about the effects DXM may have had on my my nephrological system.

My usage has been consistent for about 9 years maybe on average once a month in high doses.
Click to expand...

One of the things my urologist mentionned is that the process of urination is extremely complex. Neurological and environmental factors are important. Could your issues arise simply because of you getting older? Could it be part of some long-term damage from DXM? It will also change from one individual to the next... I suggest you consult a urologist, if it bothers you.

Thanks to the moderators for their help. I will try the proposed treatment and feedback in some time.
 
Thou said:
I've found mxe to be the perfect solution as it has (anecdotally) seemingly no negative pissing complications or phyical negative symptoms.
Click to expand...

This simply isn't true. I have seen many reports of MXE producing damage very similar to ketamine when large amounts have been ingested regularly.
 
I want to post an update on my condition. I'm doing this in the hope that it will help others.

Due to the small contenance of my bladder, the good doctor is concerned that my kidneys may experience a kind of flowback from the bladder to the kidneys when it is full. This, long-term, damages the kidneys and may lead to renal failure - and all this, altough my tests came back clean in terms of renal function.

My urologist is thus considering the option of taking a small part of my intestine, to place it on my bladder. This would increase the capacity of the bladder, and no more problems with back-flow to the kidneys. Naturally this is a really heavy operation with some risk involved, and lots of drawbacks, so it's not a decision to be taken lightly.

I am obviously in a very dark place as I have just learnt this a couple hours ago. I would say this is a general warning to all those who are taking drugs whose effects aren't known. I said, a few years back, proudly, that I was willing to take all the risks that came with the drug-taking. And that's very easy to say when you're having the time of your life and justifying that crazyness.

But the truth is, I really shouldn't have signed off on this. It was a blank contract. And all of you, are signing pretty much blank contracts too.
 
DragonFly31 said:
I want to post an update on my condition. I'm doing this in the hope that it will help others.

Due to the small contenance of my bladder, the good doctor is concerned that my kidneys may experience a kind of flowback from the bladder to the kidneys when it is full. This, long-term, damages the kidneys and may lead to renal failure - and all this, altough my tests came back clean in terms of renal function.

My urologist is thus considering the option of taking a small part of my intestine, to place it on my bladder. This would increase the capacity of the bladder, and no more problems with back-flow to the kidneys. Naturally this is a really heavy operation with some risk involved, and lots of drawbacks, so it's not a decision to be taken lightly.

I am obviously in a very dark place as I have just learnt this a couple hours ago. I would say this is a general warning to all those who are taking drugs whose effects aren't known. I said, a few years back, proudly, that I was willing to take all the risks that came with the drug-taking. And that's very easy to say when you're having the time of your life and justifying that crazyness.

But the truth is, I really shouldn't have signed off on this. It was a blank contract. And all of you, are signing pretty much blank contracts too.
Click to expand...

Hi DragonFly31.

How did this pan out in the end? Did you get the surgery?
 
stringybell said:
Hi DragonFly31.

How did this pan out in the end? Did you get the surgery?
Click to expand...
This is an update, close to 10 years since I made my first post regarding ketamine-induced bladder damage. Again, I hope that this may provide helpful information to those afflicted by similar troubles.

I did not opt for the surgery. This is an extremely heavy operation, and 'second opinions' led me to view this as an absolute last resort solution, destined for those who have heavier damage than I.

My bladder still has a low capacity, and I have to watch out about how much I drink or eat and where I am, if I can have access to a bathroom within a certain amount of time (usually one hour). With time, I have identified those foods and beverages which will increase the likelihood of a bathroom break.

Thus, I have managed my condition simply through an appropriate diet. (Alcohol is a killer, particularly beer). No eating or drinking basically leads to a safe place; but only until you have to.

I also have to add, that with the years the condition does appear to become marginally better. On the advice of my doctors, I also quit smoking, which in itself may increase the probability of bladder cancer (which are likely to be much higher for me given the large damage already done.)

The toughest times are those with long travel times. I was in India a few years back, and the 12-hour-long bus journeys were annoying and stressful.

Overall though, given the initial prognosis I would say that, as with all things in life, "you get used to it".
 
DragonFly31 said:
This is an update, close to 10 years since I made my first post regarding ketamine-induced bladder damage. Again, I hope that this may provide helpful information to those afflicted by similar troubles.

I did not opt for the surgery. This is an extremely heavy operation, and 'second opinions' led me to view this as an absolute last resort solution, destined for those who have heavier damage than I.

My bladder still has a low capacity, and I have to watch out about how much I drink or eat and where I am, if I can have access to a bathroom within a certain amount of time (usually one hour). With time, I have identified those foods and beverages which will increase the likelihood of a bathroom break.

Thus, I have managed my condition simply through an appropriate diet. (Alcohol is a killer, particularly beer). No eating or drinking basically leads to a safe place; but only until you have to.

I also have to add, that with the years the condition does appear to become marginally better. On the advice of my doctors, I also quit smoking, which in itself may increase the probability of bladder cancer (which are likely to be much higher for me given the large damage already done.)

The toughest times are those with long travel times. I was in India a few years back, and the 12-hour-long bus journeys were annoying and stressful.

Overall though, given the initial prognosis I would say that, as with all things in life, "you get used to it".
Click to expand...
Thanks for your report. I have had great bladder recovery just taking green tea. It has some melecules that are super healthy for the bladder. Maybe you dont recover full capacity but experience some improvement. In my case I started having pins and needles in the bladder and the piss conduct after some disso extended uses and after the green tea it has 100% dissapeared. I take it before and after the dissos. Better natural type, like gunpowder, not nestea nor industrial sheet
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top