KARMA-universal principle or just another dogmatic neurosis?

[Cthulhu]

Karma isn't a cause and effect thing. QUOTE]

Actually, from the Buddhist point of view THAT is exactly what karma is. However, it is not merely cause and effect by itself - particles in space bouncing off one another do not create karma. Karma is cause and effect as it relates to sentient beings and their experience of reality

So, for example - let's say that you go out one night and get totally hammered drinking, and the next morning you wake up hungover feeling like someone split your skull open: that's karma. The action of drinking led to the experience of being hungover, and the feeling will lead to it's own action, such as taking an aspirin.

The point of karma is that we sentient beings have to make choices every moment of our lives, and every choice that we make will have consequences. Basically, everyone wishes to avoid suffering and attain happiness, so the goal is to make choices that promote such aspirations. The trickiness is that some choices may appear to lead to happiness but in fact cause only temporary pleasure, and subsequent downswings in mood.

Ultimately, it is possible to escape karma. How? By attaining the ultimate peace of mind, which cannot be disturbed by any external event.

 

[modern buddha]

you still haven't answered his question, which is how to gap the distance from relativity to nonexistence. i don't believe you can say something that is relative is nonexistent; a nonexistence would preclude the possibility of something being relative because it simply wouldn't exist in any form

Maybe I'll try to explain it differently. To those who believe in it, it's relative to their interests.

To those who don't, it doesn't exist.

It's like ... a teenager who believes in love versus an older person who is beyond love (example only). To the teenager, it's relative; they look for love because it exists. To the older person, it doesn't exist because they don't believe in it.

Granted, I cannot explain his own gap between things being relative and nonexistant as well as he himself can. I only believe in this type of principle and think this is what he means by it. Almost like deciphering poetry.

 

[Jamshyd]

Actually, from the Buddhist point of view THAT is exactly what karma is. However, it is not merely cause and effect by itself - particles in space bouncing off one another do not create karma. Karma is cause and effect as it relates to sentient beings and their experience of reality

So, for example - let's say that you go out one night and get totally hammered drinking, and the next morning you wake up hungover feeling like someone split your skull open: that's karma. The action of drinking led to the experience of being hungover, and the feeling will lead to it's own action, such as taking an aspirin.

The point of karma is that we sentient beings have to make choices every moment of our lives, and every choice that we make will have consequences. Basically, everyone wishes to avoid suffering and attain happiness, so the goal is to make choices that promote such aspirations. The trickiness is that some choices may appear to lead to happiness but in fact cause only temporary pleasure, and subsequent downswings in mood.

Ultimately, it is possible to escape karma. How? By attaining the ultimate peace of mind, which cannot be disturbed by any external event.

Really??

I have a very limited understanding of Dharmic cosmology, but I always got the impression that Karma referred to causality that is not perceptible due to its emergent nature... as in, outwardly it may appear that an act and an effect are unrelated yet they are, however a very simple causality (such as the hangover example) may not be wholesome enough to be conceived of as Karmic (it is partially so of course, as with every other action, yet its Karmic "ripple" extends beyond the hangover, or the person in question, or even the planet.

As such (and thanks ebola for reminding me of this!), EVERY reaction has, to some degree, contributed to setting the conditions to EVERY action, itself leading to yet another reaction "ripple". As such, Karma is one of the best examples of an emergent causality.

This, of course, refers to the dharmic concept of Karma/Kama, not the English one which appears differ with causality only insofar as it being embued with a universalist-overtone.

 

[Cthulhu]

Really??

I have a very limited understanding of Dharmic cosmology, but I always got the impression that Karma referred to causality that is not perceptible due to its emergent nature... as in, outwardly it may appear that an act and an effect are unrelated yet they are, however a very simple causality (such as the hangover example) may not be wholesome enough to be conceived of as Karmic (it is partially so of course, as with every other action, yet its Karmic "ripple" extends beyond the hangover, or the person in question, or even the planet.

As such (and thanks ebola for reminding me of this!), EVERY reaction has, to some degree, contributed to setting the conditions to EVERY action, itself leading to yet another reaction "ripple". As such, Karma is one of the best examples of an emergent causality.

This, of course, refers to the dharmic concept of Karma/Kama, not the English one which appears differ with causality only insofar as it being embued with a universalist-overtone.

I don't disagree with anything you said. Every event, or act (whether physical, verbal, or mental), has an effect which is infinite. The ripple is infinite and does not stop at any definite point - there is no simple cause -> effect relationship such as drinking -> hangover. I think the ripple metaphor is a great one, because if you imagine the universe to be like the ocean, where actions are like disturbances which affect currents, waves, and even tiny ripples on the surface - those disturbances are themselves actions which affect their environment, and their effects are perpetual ones in a constant flux kind of way. Whether you choose to isolate a single ripple, or wave, is just that - a matter of choice, or even simply the nature of perception and the mind to isolate, separate, and categorize - but there is no ripple which comes into being, exists, and then disappears, just constant flux.

Thus, with the drinking example, yes there is a lot more going on. However: when it comes down to practical matters and conventional reality, certain simplifications can and should be made, otherwise there couldn't be progress on a spiritual path. For example, Buddhist vows include abstaining from killing others, and the reason is because of the accrual of negative karma, which is of detriment to one's welfare. This does not mean that killing is universally bad, or inherently bad (one can imagine situations in which not killing someone would be of greater harm than not killing them). But, as a rule of thumb it is a good idea not to kill people. Ultimately, it comes down to the present moment, and the best possible choice a person can make in the present moment, and the criteria for what the best possible choice is include intuition and reason and learning from the past.

Karma is not a real thing. Buddhist wisdom says that ultimately, all things are empty of inherent existence. Karma is more of a model of cause and effect as it relates to sentient beings. Buddha used the analogy of money, debt, and investment. Negative karmic actions cause a sort of karmic debt which eventually will have to be paid for, and positive karmic actions are like an investment which will bring well-being in some form.

I think of lot misinformed people see karma as a mysterious force of morality which punishes people for being bad and rewards people for being good. In actuality, it is just the empirical nature of reality in which every action has consequences with regard to suffering and happiness. I will say, the issue becomes clearer when you believe in enlightenment/nirvana, which is like the end goal of the game of karma. Without the concept of enlightenment, it just seems like a never-ending game of pain and pleasure - very nihilistic.

 

[Max Power]

I think the notion of karma, much like that of reward of heaven is missing the point. You shouldn't need incentive to be a good person, that seems selfish.

If you give a homeless man five dollars, do it just to be a good person, not to *hopefully* get something in return at a later date.

 

[HigherAwareness]

HigherAwareness, I don't get the logical jump you've made from 'good and bad are relative' to 'good and bad don't exist'.

In my original post I spoke of things like " Commiting good deeds brings about good things" and vice versa. In order to see how people on here feel about karma. Don't get me wrong I really meant it too. I was asking if something good or bad, (or positive or negative if you will) happens as it a direct result and/or consequence of a good or bad act you have commited. So that was my "good and bad are relative".


When star showers asked if good or bad don't really exist how can karma ?I simply stated as a side note that NO they probobly don't.

When discussing Karma we must use words like good or bad. I guess my "good and bad don't exist" tirade was a little of track but still relevant as I truely don't believe that good or bad exist outside of one's own perceptions. Maybe that is a discussion for another thread though.


So I guees the question remains does a (turquiose )act create a (turquiose)future and if so is it based on the probability that (turquiose) brings more (turquiose) or is there an absolute law that will not permit a turquioseish action to not be met with an equal acton?

Does the same apply for burgandy (opposite of turquiose) and if so is it based on a sort of law of attraction thing? or is it an absolute that must be enforced as a way of order (or maintaining a universal law, as if imposed by some deity) or maybe even imposed by yourself based on the actions that one does?

 

[.Lucid.]

karma = cause and effect = chaos = order

 

[Jabberwocky]

In my humble/experienced opinion...I firmly believe it's shit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a negative-nelly. I've bent over backwards for years and years, helping people out when I can, in any way I can. And I've never received anything but shit, time after time from life. Not from the people I've hooked up mind you. From life in general. I don't help people out in the hopes that I will be re-payed in some way. I do what I do, because it's the way I was brought up and it's just the right thing to do.
Family turning their back on me, so-called friends burning me....I've found out the hard way that, nice guys do in fact finish last. I'm not trying to lay a whole, "oh woe is me" speech, it's just been my experience in life. I've found that the majority of people that I've come across in my life that make the comments such as,"you get what you give...positive attracts positive...what goes around comes around..."...they haven't lived in the real world. They've had everything handed to them on a silver platter.
Case in point, last winter when I got my first disability check, this 'buddy' of mine, asked if he could borrow a $1000 so he could get his van on the road for his contracting business. Mind you, this was the first time I've ever lent any amount of money over $20 to anybody...ever. For the very reason that I knew I would never get it back. I had reservations but his pitch was good. I lent it to him, not expecting to ever get it back. There was no van. There was no contracting business. He did work under-the-table for a shady guy. Well, about 2 weeks ago, he comes to my place telling me I owed him for an eighth of bud...which I didn't. He gets in my face telling me to give him 'his' $40. So, out of my mouth comes,"you got that grand you owe from last year?" His answer..."no, and I'm not going to give it to you, I don't owe you shit."
Karma? Yeah, what-the-fuck-ever. I can't wait for the day when I can say to him, "ain't karma a bitch!"

how are you currently doing in life? are you happy/content?


when i'm feeling like life is shitty i just think about people who have it worse than me. homeless, broke, etc. i could be in their shoes.