K may be K but.....

[gollygbob]

(also posted as a response to another thread but doesn't relate to original topic so here it is.)
1 vile contains Ketamine hydrochloride or Ketamine HCl. Its chemical formula is C13_H16_Cl_N_O - H_Cl and has a molecular weight of 274.1894. The formula can also be written C13_H17_Cl2_N_O as shown here. Notice the diagram of the chemical structure. The HCl is not connected to the Ketamine structure. This condition exists when the Ketamine HCl is suspended in a solution of water.
HCl is a gas at well below room temp (-85.06°C) but is anhydrous so it is stays in the water. Its molecular weight is 36.4609. Thus it is likely that the HCL would evaporate to produce pure Ketamine with a molecular weight of 237.7285.
It is also possible that under the correct conditions the HCl could bond with the other elements to produce an entirely different chemical. This chemical which is NOT Ketamine HCl has the same chemical formula and molecular weight. Notice the difference in this structure from the Ketamine HCl structure.
Also two other chemical structures have the chemical formula and molecular weight as Ketamine. Also likely caused by variations in speed of reaction etc.
While it is true that the solid Ketamine melts at 263°C it must be stored below 25-30°C and protected from light. A sealed vile exposed to light or temperature will gradually change color and/or develop a precipitate. If this happens the vile should not be used. If light and temp are a factor in a sealed bottle it is likely that they would have an effect on the cooking process. Also the storage of the powdered K is probably important also to prevent degradation over time.
I am not a chemist I just play one on TV. Seriously look at the links and always do you own research before using any substance not prescribed by a doctor. Even then you might want to make sure they are right.

 

[Petersko]

Excellent information.
The point made in the other thread is that the extraction process employed does not affect the strength of the ketamine, provided excessive temperatures are not employed. In otherwords, don't burn your K and everything will be just fine.
Employing three finely-garbed oriental dancers to wave bamboo fans across the sacred liquid while playing Boney M's "Rasputin" will not make your high any stronger.
If you start out with a decayed or weakened vial due to improper storage, you will likely find much of the product degraded, of course. Start with a good vial, and pick your favorite method. Distill it, boil it off, dry it in the sun, use a bulb suspended over the pan, it'll be fine. Take six hours or six days - it'll be the fine.
Blast it at 400 degrees and it won't be fine.

 

[bunt cake]

gollybob, that's some interesting shit...
unfortunately, it's just that...shit....cause it's all wrong. everyone appreciates a good effort but I don't want people being misinformed.
The HCl in the Ketamine HCL solution is NOT in the form of HCl gas. It is in the form of H+ ions (cations) anc CL- ions (anions). When they are floating around as anions you are not going to get any gases evaporating out of solution and, therefore, you aren't going to get any "pure ketamine" as you call it...or more properly called ketamine base (rather than ketamine hydrochloride salt).
Also, anhydrous HCl gas has no water. The word anhydrous literally means "without water" (an=without, hydrous=water). HCl gas in water would NOT be anhydrous HCl gas.

 

[gollygbob]

Petersko:
Do you have proof that temperature below the melting point has no effect?
**Chemical reactions do not require a change in physical state. i.e. 2 liquids can react to form a third liquid.
I was suggesting that because slight temperature increases have an effect on a sealed bottle, the greater temperature increases often employed in cooking would logically also have an effect. Light and temperature both increase the speed that molecules move at. Reactions occur when molecules move at the correct speed. A reaction occurs at some point close to 30°C or 90°F. Thus temperatures above this point would cause the same reaction that degrades the k in a vile.
The boiling point of water would play a role also. After the water is evaporated the chemical will start to burn under certain conditions. (stove top cooking especially) At sea Level the BP is 100°C or 212°F but at 30,000 feet it drops to 70°C or 158°F.
bunt cake:
I was not trying to give the impression that the HCl in the Ketamine solution was a gas. rather that HCl by itself is a gas. also by itself it is anhydrous but anhydrous chemicals tend to gravitate towards water. (if memory serves me correctly which it often does not.)
my point was that the HCl is a free floating molecule as shown in the Ketamine-HCl diagram and thus should evaporate with the water rather than bond with the Ketamine base.
I do not know or pretend to know what causes the different variations in shapes of the molecules. just suggesting that because they exist it is possible that under different conditions different molecules may form, and that these differences may account for the different effects that people feel.

 

[PhreeX]

I am waiting to hear what Roche has to say on this one... good info, I saved this one!
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PACK.MY.BEAK

 

[bunt cake]

---gollygbob wrote:
my point was that the HCl is a free floating molecule as shown in the Ketamine-HCl diagram and thus should evaporate with the water rather than bond with the Ketamine base.----
This is not the case. As water evaporates, the H+ anc Cl- (and ketamine base molecule) remain in solution. As the amount of evaporated water increases, the amount of solvent (water) in the solution decreases. This eventually reaches a saturation point...at this point the attractive forces outweigh any dispersive forces (forces causing them to remain free), and, therefore ketamine and hydrogen and chloride recombine back into Ketamine HCl. If evaporation continues, you will eventually end up with a pile of k salt left over.
If you don't have any ketamine HCl available to test this experiment, then you can simply test this chemistry "theory" by doing the same thing with table salt (NaCl). NaCl dissolves in the water into Na+ cations and Cl- anions. Water evaporates leaving behind Na+ and Cl- until saturation point is reached whereby NaCl reforms and comes out of solution. At the end you are left with the salt again; the salt did not evaporate with the water.

 

[xylo-]

Hmmmm intersting stuff but I'm more interested in the different effects of the different isomers of ketamine, and which isomers are present in which commercial preparations.........

 

[infinity]

V I A L!
not VILE! V-I-A-L

 

[TheTripDoctor]

"my point was that the HCl is a free floating molecule as shown in the Ketamine-HCl diagram and thus should evaporate with the water rather than bond with the Ketamine base."
I love the fact that you generalized an entire theory on what that specific diagram said, even more your theory is WRONG.
your an idiot trying too hard is all this is.
By the way, all commercial preparations but ONE have racemic +- definately, i bet in different ratios like more + or more - in some of them, accounting for a slight difference in activity from psychedelic to anesthetic.
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~The Recreational Pharmacist
Fuck Social, Screw you plur fucks, you dont need a forum for "ELMOvsTELLETUBBIES"
AIM: TheTripDoctor
[This message has been edited by TheTripDoctor (edited 29 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by TheTripDoctor (edited 29 June 2001).]