Pharmacology Just think lithium salts are interesting…

[Juicewrldfan]

Been researching medication instead of drugs of abuse these days (yes I know almost all drugs have some medicinal benefit).

Just as I recalibrate my life my interests have changed.

What are your thoughts on lithium as far as long term safety on the brain and other organs, and heck just it’s pharmacodynamics and usefulness? I mean it’s neuroprotective and it increases bdnf. I know of quite a few things he’ll even exercise I read increases bdnf.

It actually protects or is thought to protect the brain from oxidative stress from mania and depression in BD.

And I have a history of lengthy addiction and am trying to stay clean with success, but don’t mind more tools. This peaks my interest more:

“…lithium reverses dopamine dependent behaviour by acting through the protein kinase B (AKT)/glycogen synthase kinase 3 signalling cascade…”

The dopamine hypothesis of bipolar affective disorder: the state of the art and implications for treatment - Molecular Psychiatry

Bipolar affective disorder is a common neuropsychiatric disorder. Although its neurobiological underpinnings are incompletely understood, the dopamine hypothesis has been a key theory of the pathophysiology of both manic and depressive phases of the illness for over four decades. The increased...

www.nature.com

Potential mechanisms of action of lithium in bipolar disorder. Current understanding - PubMed

Lithium has been used for over half a century for the treatment of bipolar disorder as the archetypal mood stabilizer, and has a wealth of empirical evidence supporting its efficacy in this role. Despite this, the specific mechanisms by which lithium exerts its mood-stabilizing effects are not...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[snmfmy]

There's a reason they called it 7-up.

It literally had lithium citrate in it until 1948.

(Lithium is the 7th element if you didn't get that)

Cities that have water supplies that have higher levels of natural occurring Lithium have a lower incidence of violent crime.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

There's a reason they called it 7-up.

It literally had lithium citrate in it until 1948.

(Lithium is the 7th element if you didn't get that)

Cities that have water supplies that have higher levels of natural occurring Lithium have a lower incidence of violent crime.

Interesting facts

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Cities that have water supplies that have higher levels of natural occurring Lithium have a lower incidence of violent crime.

And of death by suicide!

 

[Juicewrldfan]

And of death by suicide!

Yeah but to be fair many psych meds carry that risk

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Yeah but to be fair many psych meds carry that risk

Think you read that wrong. Lithium is well known for reducing suicidality more so than other meds save maybe clozapine.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Think you read that wrong. Lithium is well known for reducing suicidality more so than other meds save maybe clozapine.

I did read it wrong! Sorry about that I was at work. Yeah supposed to be the gold standard for BD. And really effective for bipolar depression.

Maybe if it works well enough I can just take the one medicine (lithium) I just started it yesterday though, but I literally don’t sleep some nights I might for two hours lately some nights not at all.

So yeah, really hoping it helps. Too soon to tell I guess. She said it would help me sleep but I can’t tell.

 

[snmfmy]

I did read it wrong! Sorry about that I was at work. Yeah supposed to be the gold standard for BD. And really effective for bipolar depression.

Maybe if it works well enough I can just take the one medicine (lithium) I just started it yesterday though, but I literally don’t sleep some nights I might for two hours lately some nights not at all.

So yeah, really hoping it helps. Too soon to tell I guess. She said it would help me sleep but I can’t tell.

You might want to try lithium orotate. Supposed to be more bioavailable than lithium carbonate which is the prescription and you can buy it over the counter.

The dose is much lower and it leads to much less toxicity. You know you have to get your blood tested like all the time when you're on lithium.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

You might want to try lithium orotate. Supposed to be more bioavailable than lithium carbonate which is the prescription and you can buy it over the counter.

The dose is much lower and it leads to much less toxicity. You know you have to get your blood tested like all the time when you're on lithium.

Yeah. Kidney functions mainly I believe. I heard about lithium orotate but I take it for bipolar disorder so not sure about testing out another medication formulation. Why don’t they use lithium orotate instead?

 

[Mjäll]

There's a reason they called it 7-up.

It literally had lithium citrate in it until 1948.

(Lithium is the 7th element if you didn't get that)

Cities that have water supplies that have higher levels of natural occurring Lithium have a lower incidence of violent crime.

Wow that's news to me. I knew coke had coke originally. Any more functional sodas of old?

 

[snmfmy]

Yeah. Kidney functions mainly I believe. I heard about lithium orotate but I take it for bipolar disorder so not sure about testing out another medication formulation. Why don’t they use lithium orotate instead?

Mostly it has to do with dose.

Lithium carbonate is the only compound. They really did good studies in after they ditched lithium orotate in the 1970s.

Because lithium carbonate apparently does not penetrate the central nervous system very well, large and borderline toxic doses of lithium carbonate are required to be therapeutic.

Here's a paper that discusses why lithium orotate may be a better solution for bipolar disorder.

You realize that the only difference is the salt attached to the lithium.

"In support of this, a study by Kling et al. (1978) found that LiOr resulted in brain lithium concentrations three‐fold higher than what were observed for equivalent doses of Li2CO3."

Lithium orotate: A superior option for lithium therapy? - PMC

Bipolar disorder (BD) poses a significant public health concern, with roughly one‐quarter of sufferers attempting suicide. BD is characterized by manic and depressive mood cycles, the recurrence of which can be effectively curtailed through lithium ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That means you could achieve the same brain levels of lithium by using one third the dose required of lithium carbonate thereby reducing toxicity significantly.

It's very easy to calculate how much lithium orotate you need to take to meet the lithium delivered by lithium carbonate.

It's an over-the-counter nutraceutical so it's very very non-toxic. I've actually taken some myself. Low doses of lithium orotate are supposed to help foster neurogenesis in people with MS. I was not impressed, although I didn't suffer any negative side effects.

However, there hasn't been any significant study stud with respect to lithium or rotate and MS. So it may very well be a valid treatment.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Mostly it has to do with dose.

Lithium carbonate is the only compound. They really did good studies in after they ditched lithium orotate in the 1970s.

Because lithium carbonate apparently does not penetrate the central nervous system very well, large and borderline toxic doses of lithium carbonate are required to be therapeutic.

Here's a paper that discusses why lithium orotate may be a better solution for bipolar disorder.

You realize that the only difference is the salt attached to the lithium.

"In support of this, a study by Kling et al. (1978) found that LiOr resulted in brain lithium concentrations three‐fold higher than what were observed for equivalent doses of Li2CO3."

Lithium orotate: A superior option for lithium therapy? - PMC

Bipolar disorder (BD) poses a significant public health concern, with roughly one‐quarter of sufferers attempting suicide. BD is characterized by manic and depressive mood cycles, the recurrence of which can be effectively curtailed through lithium ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That means you could achieve the same brain levels of lithium by using one third the dose required of lithium carbonate thereby reducing toxicity significantly.

It's very easy to calculate how much lithium orotate you need to take to meet the lithium delivered by lithium carbonate.

It's an over-the-counter nutraceutical so it's very very non-toxic. I've actually taken some myself. Low doses of lithium orotate are supposed to help foster neurogenesis in people with MS. I was not impressed, although I didn't suffer any negative side effects.

However, there hasn't been any significant study stud with respect to lithium or rotate and MS. So it may very well be a valid treatment.

Interesting. I am going to ask about this because I don’t want to self treat. I played doctor for far too many years. I am aware it’s just the difference is a salt but that changes things significantly imo.

I have a flexible doctor so I think she’d be willing to help.

Edit: I just scheduled an appointment to ask. She’s calling me in 5 minutes. Is there anything specific you would ask a physician treating you for bipolar disorder regarding this? I found another paper too on it and it is promising. I just think the whole longitudal study thing is going to throw a wrench in it and that the fda hasn’t approved this form for its use.

lol they gave mice amp to trigger manic like episodes. And they diagnosed me with bipolar after binging in stims for a year lol. What are the odds im misdiagnosed. Nevermind, apparently bipolar disorder can be permanent even if substance induced as brain changes occur overtime. Guess it doesn’t matter if the chicken or the egg came first.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395623003102#:~:text=Introduction,option%20(Culpepper%2C%202014).

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Okay so, this doctor isn’t a fan of lithium salts. She doesn’t want me to take them. I asked her about oratate but she doesn’t know shit about it. And was busy asf so I didn’t push it…yet.

I see her again next week. Her issue with lithium salts is the risks and amount of monitoring needed and she said usually when something does go wrong by the time they test it’s too late to do anything to correct it.

I’m torn. Lithium seems really promising for
me to treat BD and reduce cravings associated with dopamine. Idk..

 

[AlsoTapered]

As you may know, their are two stable isotopes of lithium to whit 6Li and 7Li. Researchers discovered the former was more effective in controlling mood. My father-in-law found an article on the topic and forwarded it to me thinking it was more my field.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

As you may know, their are to stable isotopes of lithium to whit 6Li and 7Li. Researchers discovered the former was more effective if controlling mood. My father-in-law found an article on the topic and forwarded it to me thinking it was more my field.

So is the former is the one they prescribe? The second is used in nuclear power?

 

[AlsoTapered]

No, they prescribe naturally mined lithium salts which are over 95% 7Li, the less effective isomer.

The problem is that 6Li is a key component of the hydrogen bomb with Lithium 6 deuteride (deuterium being 2H) being the fusion fuel.

The way in which it used to be enriched (COLEX) were terrible for the environment because it used mercury metal as a solvent BUT I would guess that a Zippe-type centrifuge could work. I read that both the US and Japan are working on new processes.

So their are pretty good practical reasons why 6Li isn't used medically BUT if one were to enrich to just 10% then it might substantially lower the dose. It was only in animal models and so we need to do more research to REALLY know.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

No, they prescribe naturally mined lithium salts which are over 95% 7Li, the less effective isomer.

The problem is that 6Li is a key component of the hydrogen bomb with Lithium 6 deuteride (deuterium being 2H) being the fusion fuel.

The way in which it used to be enriched (COLEX) were terrible for the environment because it used mercury metal as a solvent BUT I would guess that a Zippe-type centrifuge could work. I read that both the US and Japan are working on new processes.

So their are pretty good practical reasons why 6Li isn't used medically BUT if one were to enrich to just 10% then it might substantially lower the dose. It was only in animal models and so we need to do more research to REALLY know.

So self medicating with lithium oratate for my purposes is a bad idea I take it. I just checked with a pharmacist I trust because I was about to grab some and she said that it’s actually more risky because it still would require blood level monitoring and that it shared the same toxicity risks as the li7 so there’s really no point.

I guess I just have to wait on them to figure this out.

Are there any other mood stabilizers that modify dopamine induced cravings and are nueroprotective? Or is it only nueroprotextuve in the sense that it prevents oxidative damage from mania?

 

[AlsoTapered]

The therapeutic window of lithium is extremely small. Even becoming dehydrated can result in toxic symptoms. Blood tests are required to find the appropriate dose on a per-patient basis. Talk to your doctor or specialist. Apparently it tends to either be a fantastic success or total failure. I think it's worth a try if you are able to carefully monitor your fluid balance and use it in conjunction with behaviors such as sleep hygiene, identification of stressors and most of all, a really regular pattern to you life. Make sure you eat well, make sure you get some exercise (a walk is fine) and make sure you maintain social bonds. However bad you feel, real friends will always remind you of your worth.

You are unique - one of a kind is ALWAYS special.