Jesus seems to hate some things. Do you? Is hate good?

[Gnostic Bishop]

First, Thanks to all.

Jesus/Yahweh has predicted that the many of us will take the wide road to hell while the few will take the narrow path to heaven.

Any who think a God/Jesus would not hate those he condemns, when love would lead him to cure those he felt were afflicted, cannot think in a loving way. It takes a lot of hate to put the needs of the few ahead of the needs of the many.

=====

QUOTE=cduggles;14039883]

Gnostic: Actually I did. You're wrong. I have a number of other passages to prove it, but my posts are already too long, as nuance and brevity are enemies.

So I am wrong yet you hide what you say confirms it. Nice try buddy. Refute what I put above and then I will listen to you.

And as for your logic train, anthropomorphize much?

Yes as that is what your bible does. Do you not believe that reciprocity is fair play?

Just because we are made in God's image, we are flawed.

Indeed, just as God is. He is quite the sinner. He tells us not to kill or covet and then turns around and kill even the innocent and coveted Mary, another mans wife. Seems God's flaws stop him from following his own laws.

You are attributing human motives that might not be applicable to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

I

For an all powerful God, he sure does not seem to have any power. Except to instil your delusions of his power.

I certainly have no insight into the divine,

Few do so why are you spouting off with all the insight of God's character you seem so sure of above?

but perhaps people who chose to sin grievously and inflict cruelty in this life, seemingly unpunished, deserve to go to hell.

Were those people created evil or were they made evil by those who interacted with them? If God made them that way, then he has no just cause to punish people who follow their God given evil natures. If it was the rearing that made them evil, is it not those who reared them that should be punished?

Think of it as the ultimate karma, perhaps justice.

There is no justice in a genocidal son murdering God.

Perhaps there is no equivalent in our limited understanding to the motives of God. God bestowed his love on humanity and sent his only begotten son to die a horrible death for our sins. Doesn't sound like hate to me.

So you do not think that needlessly having your son murdered is love, which shows how your morality has been corrupted by your beliefs.

And by giving us free will, we are empowered to save ourselves if we wish.

The usual free will B.S.

Christians are always tryingto absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite"free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave usfree will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God isnot blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God'sculpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability tochoose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A"or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would evenhave the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by aserpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in thenature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberatelymaking humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" meansnothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then,the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would notsin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts andnatures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Oh, it's interesting that Jesus Christ is referred to as the Son of God, as both human and divine, as dying a human death after living amongst humans, whereas God is the creator of the universe and existed prior to everything, even light.
And if they are the same, why does the Bible refer to them a using different names, as opposed to something like a slash?

[/QUOTE]

Do the count and note that Jesus calls himself the son of man a lot more times than he calls himself son of God.

You are either a hypocrite or a liar for trying that lie on us.

Regards
DL

 

[cduggles]

To reiterate, by default my posts are made from a traditional theological or scholarly Christian perspective, unless I specify something as my personal opinion or belief.

YB: I poked around the forum and I really enjoyed your posts. I look forward to seeing more in the future.

Nixiam: Thank you for the welcome.
I reveal a bit of myself in saying that I agree that Jesus lived right and seemed like he would be very cool.

GN: From the posts of yours that I've read in this forum, your knowledge of Christianity is clearly insubstantial, yet you rail against it as constantly as you do ineffectively. You also lack a grasp of basic logic. No big deal.
As for your overall tone in your post, however, such as referring to my "delusions", "B.S.", and calling me "either a hypocrite or a liar", I find excessive.
Your rudeness and inability to be coherent within a single post are sad. And I'm not your buddy. Creepy guy thing, I presume? *shudder*
So when I don't respond, you'll know why...

Best, CD

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

I reveal a bit of myself in saying that I agree that Jesus lived right and seemed like he would be very cool.

Do you think his morals to be good?

I will give him some credit but overall I cannot follow much of what he teaches as it is anti-love and some quite unlawful.

For instance, his no-divorce stance is anti-love as it forces people to stay in loveless or even abusive relationships. I also have many issues with his substitutionary atonement policy that goes against a lot of logic, reason and justice. No one should profit from the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty.

Jesus is better than his genocidal son murdering father, or self if you follow that foolish Trinity concept, but he is still not worthy of moral men.

Regards
DL

 

[alasdairm]

your original claim was "Jesus seems to hate some things"

it's not clear to me that you've managed to substantiate this original claim.



alasdair

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

your original claim was "Jesus seems to hate some things"

it's not clear to me that you've managed to substantiate this original claim.



alasdair

To believers, Jesus and Yahweh are one and the same, sort of, thanks to the Trinity concept.

Jesus/Yahweh, in scriptures, say that most of us will end in hell and death while only the few will end in heaven.

Jesus has to hate those in hell quite a bit if he will kill them in that lake of fire instead of curing them the way a good and moral God would do.

That should hopefully satisfy your request.

Regards
DL

 

[alasdairm]

Jesus has to hate those in hell quite a bit if he will kill them in that lake of fire instead of curing them the way a good and moral God would do.

not necessarily. you're just assuming.

That should hopefully satisfy your request.

not really - i think you make a lot of ill-considered statements which are backed up with little more than muddled thinking and more vague claims.

alasdair

 

[Xorkoth]

To believers, Jesus and Yahweh are one and the same, sort of, thanks to the Trinity concept.

Jesus/Yahweh, in scriptures, say that most of us will end in hell and death while only the few will end in heaven.

Jesus has to hate those in hell quite a bit if he will kill them in that lake of fire instead of curing them the way a good and moral God would do.

That should hopefully satisfy your request.

Regards
DL

In my opinion, you have to separate the new testament from the old. The old testament is in there for histoical/mythological background, but Jesus was preaching against that world. To quote anything from the OT to prove a point in Christianity is to fail to understand the entire point of it.

For the record, I am not Christian. I do respect Jesus the man though, from what I have gathered of him. Doesn't seem like he would have wanted a religion based around him. He seems sort of anti-religion/anti-establishment to me.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

not necessarily. you're just assuming.

not really - i think you make a lot of ill-considered statements which are backed up with little more than muddled thinking and more vague claims.

alasdair

That assumption is based on logic and reason and to go the other way and say one who kills instead of cures when both options are open would be quite foolish. You seem to recognize that as you criticized what I put without correction or an argument to prove your point.

In my opinion, you have to separate the new testament from the old. The old testament is in there for histoical/mythological background, but Jesus was preaching against that world. To quote anything from the OT to prove a point in Christianity is to fail to understand the entire point of it.

I see that as a cop out as Jesus himself referred to the old testament laws.

For the record, I am not Christian. I do respect Jesus the man though, from what I have gathered of him. Doesn't seem like he would have wanted a religion based around him. He seems sort of anti-religion/anti-establishment to me.

I see Jesus as you describe in your last but not your " I do respect Jesus the man though, from what I have gathered of him."

I respect some of what one of the esoteric mystical Jesus said, but that is not the Jesus you and most Christians see.

If you analyse Jesus' no-divorce and substitutionary atonement policies, you will find that that Jesus is anti-love and not a moral guy at all.
That Jesus had other immoral tenants but those two points are particularly repulsive.

Regards
DL

 

[JahSEEuS]

^ you're adding your response to the original quote. it's extremely confusing.

i think jesus hating evil is in line with his philosophy on love. are you suggesting that his hate of evil is evidence that he hates many things? if so, can you give some more examples (plural)?

"...the Christians of today...as they are intolerant, homophobic and misogynous and have grown by the sword instead of good deeds"

that is such a gross generalisation as to be pretty much worthless.

alasdair

He wasn't into those dudes changing money in front of the temple, iirc. Dunno if I'd call it hate. I think he was more into teaching them a lesson and maybe let anger get the best of him, being human and all.

If you believe the stories.

 

[alasdairm]

That assumption is based on logic and reason and to go the other way and say one who kills instead of cures when both options are open would be quite foolish.

perhaps. but there's a big difference between being foolish and hating, isn't there.

you made a simple claim - "Jesus seems to hate some things". if that's the case, i would think you could easily back it up with a handful of examples but you have yet to do that.

alasdair

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

He wasn't into those dudes changing money in front of the temple, iirc. Dunno if I'd call it hate. I think he was more into teaching them a lesson and maybe let anger get the best of him, being human and all.

If you believe the stories.

Humans default to cooperation and doing good before competing as cooperation is a better survival strategy than competitions that might do us damage.

That means that love guides us to hate when required. It is the old carrot or stick mentality and Jesus just showed that hate and the stick have a place in our thinking.
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; evenas a father the son in whom he delighteth.

perhaps. but there's a big difference between being foolish and hating, isn't there.

you made a simple claim - "Jesus seems to hate some things". if that's the case, i would think you could easily back it up with a handful of examples but you have yet to do that.

alasdair

If killing instead of curing, when both options are open, does not show hate to you, then what do you think it is showing? Love?

Regards
DL

 

[alasdairm]

If killing instead of curing, when both options are open, does not show hate to you, then what do you think it is showing? Love?

i did not say that.

you are conflating killing and hate and assuming that the former requires the latter.

alasdair

 

[vortech]

I believe true christ consciousness hates nothing but hate itself.

 

[DoctorMolecule]

Yeah Jesus hated seeing people being sick and dead, seeing wine run out at a wedding, corrupt temple practices, and the actions he took were good.
'Jesus wept'
Looking at Jesus just from one angle like 'hate' is the same as looking at anyone in just one dimension.
I think CS Lewis said it best:

...Jesus was either telling the truth and was God's anointed... or he was a lunatic...

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

i did not say that.

you are conflating killing and hate and assuming that the former requires the latter.

alasdair

Indeed, as it does when it is basically murder while ignoring that he could cure instead of kill.

What other emotion are you trying to suggest was in the murderers heart?

I believe true christ consciousness hates nothing but hate itself.

Thus making hate a useful and good emotion to use against evil. Right?

Yeah Jesus hated seeing people being sick and dead, seeing wine run out at a wedding, corrupt temple practices, and the actions he took were good.
'Jesus wept'
Looking at Jesus just from one angle like 'hate' is the same as looking at anyone in just one dimension.
I think CS Lewis said it best:

...Jesus was either telling the truth and was God's anointed... or he was a lunatic...

Or more likely never existed as written in scriptures, just as the talking serpent and donkeys do not exist.

As to looking at one angle only, I do not as I think that hate is born of love for the opposite of whatever the hate is directed at.

We love something first, and that love pushes us to hate the opposite. If you love freedom, you will hate those who would deny it.

Regards
DL

 

[JahSEEuS]

Humans default to cooperation and doing good before competing as cooperation is a better survival strategy than competitions that might do us damage.

That means that love guides us to hate when required. It is the old carrot or stick mentality and Jesus just showed that hate and the stick have a place in our thinking.
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; evenas a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Wut?

Seriously, can you please explain what you are trying to get at here?

If killing instead of curing, when both options are open, does not show hate to you, then what do you think it is showing? Love?

Regards
DL

How do you know that death is not the ultimate form of love?

 

[vortech]

Thus making hate a useful and good emotion to use against evil. Right?

Sometimes the best way to fight fire is with water. Sometimes fire must be fought with fire, to fight the fire starters. So yes, while transmuting hate into love sounds nice, the enemy can't necessarily be neutralized with a purely defensive strategy.

 

[alasdairm]

What other emotion are you trying to suggest was in the murderers heart?

i don't know but, unlike you, i don't assume it could only be hate.

alasdair

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Wut?

Seriously, can you please explain what you are trying to get at here?

I am not sure which point you do not understand.

If it was the cooperation default point then this should answer you. In fact, it also shows the carrot and stick mentality, in terms of the biases we create because we create both the positive and negative biases at the same time.

How do you know that death is not the ultimate form of love?

A silly question but --- because we love our children and killing them is not usually the option most of us use.

Sometimes the best way to fight fire is with water. Sometimes fire must be fought with fire, to fight the fire starters. So yes, while transmuting hate into love sounds nice, the enemy can't necessarily be neutralized with a purely defensive strategy.

I agree. Tough love has a place and must sometimes be used.

i don't know but, unlike you, i don't assume it could only be hate.

alasdair

What do you assume is the emotion in play?

Regards
DL

 

[Yourbaker]

On the perspective of hate being an emotion I don't really see a need for it. Before you can arrive at hate you need a precursor emotion like envy, resentment, entitlement, anger etc. Once you have one of those emotional states in play you can fixate that negative emotion onto a person, thing, group or social structure and turn it into hate. Hate is not a raw emotional state it requires thought and intent.

Awesome video though, it shows a lot I didn't expect.