Israel is under attack

[mal3volent]

Hey Mal - not trying to jump into this bees nest of an issue.... I don't know what the right answer to any of this shit is.. it's the society-level equivalent of two people with complex trauma having an intimate relationship IMHO.

I will say this - my wife worked in Palestine as an ELL/ESL teacher for a number of years. The IDF absolutely targets civilians, beta-testing US made chemical weapons, tear gassing students heading into school. My wife talks about using waterproof mascara because of all of the tear gas encountered while commuting to work some days, or watching soldiers arbitrarily stop commuter buses, pull off young palestinians (this is in the West Bank) to harass them at gunpoint for no apparent reason. There were plenty of times stuff like this would happen while Israeli tour groups would be casually walking past, showing tourists heritage sites and places for great falafel. In a word, kafkaesque.

For reference, my wife is not a radical or a reactionary, just someone who liked arabic and wanted to help provide education to those who were interested in it. Sometimes I think about the idea of just going to work in the morning and having a soldier tear gas you for lulz, and then just having to deal with it and then go about your day... what that kind of stuff would do to me.

The whole situation is right fucked, and none of what has been happening suggests it's going to get any better. It's just creating precedent for further violence, rinse and repeat.

so when I'm arguing against a comparison between Hamas and the IDF and I make a reference to targeting civilians, I mean that one of these groups has the goal of deliberately killing as many (civilians) as possible and the other doesn't. I have no doubt that individual IDF soldiers have done bad things to Gazans who didn't deserve it. So your anecdotal examples I have no reason to not believe them. I mean, I am very skeptical that they were just haphazardly tear gassing students for no reason, but perhaps you have a full knowledge of everything that was happening in that scenario? Was there something else going on in the vicinity? How do you know they were "beta testing" weapons from the U.S. government or that they were deliberately targeting the students? I am legitimately curious to know.

I'll keep saying this as many times as it takes, no one in this thread has suggested that individuals in the IDF aren't capable of crimes. Every military that has ever existed has had atrocities committed by soldiers. Abuses of power etc. this is a categorically different statement than saying the two organizations are comparable in their overall behaviors, goals, or ethical standards.

 

[-=SS=-]

it's the society-level equivalent of two people with complex trauma having an intimate relationship IMHO.

I'll keep saying this as many times as it takes, no one in this thread has suggested that individuals in the IDF aren't capable of crimes. Every military that has ever existed has had atrocities committed by soldiers. Abuses of power etc. this is a categorically different statement than saying the two organizations are comparable in their overall behaviours, goals, or ethical standards.

This pretty much sums up the entire thing doesn't it.

I wonder sometimes how much of the situation could change, if external forces were not enabling the behaviour on both sides by pumping in money and/or weaponry. After all, bullets and bombs can't be made or paid for with sand.

It's strange how external actors can also inject, covertly, people and operations behind enemy lines which inevitably in the end only cause further violence and death. Call me a naïve hippy, but isn't it feasible that we could also put some love behind enemy lines instead? You know, covertly build a few playgrounds instead of radicalising mosques or synagogues, perhaps?

 

[tryptakid]

so when I'm arguing against a comparison between Hamas and the IDF and I make a reference to targeting civilians, I mean that one of these groups has the goal of deliberately killing as many (civilians) as possible and the other doesn't. I have no doubt that individual IDF soldiers have done bad things to Gazans who didn't deserve it. So your anecdotal examples I have no reason to not believe them. I mean, I am very skeptical that they were just haphazardly tear gassing students for no reason, but perhaps you have a full knowledge of everything that was happening in that scenario? Was there something else going on in the vicinity? How do you know they were "beta testing" weapons from the U.S. government or that they were deliberately targeting the students? I am legitimately curious to know.

I'll keep saying this as many times as it takes, no one in this thread has suggested that individuals in the IDF aren't capable of crimes. Every military that has ever existed has had atrocities committed by soldiers. Abuses of power etc. this is a categorically different statement than saying the two organizations are comparable in their overall behaviors, goals, or ethical standards.

Again - I'm no authority on any of this, just a privileged American a half a world away who would like to see less of this shit all together.

I asked my wife for clarification: "The tear gas attacks were related to the proximity of the University (in the West Bank) to the wall with Israel proper. There were times that tear gas would just be fired at the University for unknown reasons - probably because there was a high concentration of young men who attend university - though there were also times where students had broken a hole in the wall and IDF responded by firing rubber bullets at the school, launching tear gas, and this resulted in the university having to evacuate.

Regarding men being pulled off buses and held at gunpoint/hit - these reasons were frequent and never made clear, it was just something that would happen on a pretty regular basis. Depending on who you ask, you might get a number of different explanations".

Re: the beta-testing of chemical weapons, Elbit systems is a weapons manufacturer in the US and UK who supplies chemical weapons to the IDF. There have been protests against these practices in recent years.

An article in the new republic also explores the testing and sale of weapons and computer programs which have been tested on Palestinians https://newrepublic.com/article/177074/israel-arms-worlds-autocratswith-weapons-tested-palestinians

That's what I am basing my perspective on. I don't think that this is a simple problem with a simple villain, this is something that is tolerated or even encouraged by multiple nation states, using a conflict that goes back to pre-Ottoman times as a way to facilitate the interests of military industry through the exploitation of civilian suffering whether it's Arab, Jew, Christian, Agnostic, or any other cultural/ethnic identity caught in the midst of the forces of Capital.

This pretty much sums up the entire thing doesn't it.

I wonder sometimes how much of the situation could change, if external forces were not enabling the behaviour on both sides by pumping in money and/or weaponry. After all, bullets and bombs can't be made or paid for with sand.

It's strange how external actors can also inject, covertly, people and operations behind enemy lines which inevitably in the end only cause further violence and death. Call me a naïve hippy, but isn't it feasible that we could also put some love behind enemy lines instead? You know, covertly build a few playgrounds instead of radicalising mosques or synagogues, perhaps?

It's the difference between a school yard fight where peers run in and say "break it up!" and get in between until cooler heads prevail, vs. the same fight where everyone stands around chanting 'Fight! Fight! Fight!'.

Quote Reply

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

I'll keep saying this as many times as it takes, no one in this thread has suggested that individuals in the IDF aren't capable of crimes.

It's not individuals when there are seemingly never repercussions, independent investigations and it all has been happening for so many years.

There are thousands of these kinds of stories.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

I mean, I am very skeptical that they were just haphazardly tear gassing students for no reason, but perhaps you have a full knowledge of everything that was happening in that scenario? Was there something else going on in the vicinity?

never moving an inch

Hamas isnt even in the West Bank so the second part of the post is irrelevant

 

[mal3volent]

never moving an inch

Hamas isnt even in the West Bank so the second part of the post is irrelevant

What is irrelevant? Are you aware of all the other organizations that are aligned with Hamas? Or how much broad support they have there? I've watched videos of public executions that happened in the "West Bank" -- a homosexual that was branded an Israeli spy. Complete with cheering crowds.

I'm really just trying to make sense of your post. Please explain why anything I said is irrelevant.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hamas isnt even in the West Bank so the second part of the post is irrelevant

Hamas has a strong presence in the West Bank. Fatah beat them politically by a small margin in official government, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or operate in the West Bank, because they do.

 

[fairnymph]

I wish the West would stop sending money we don’t have to spare.

Both wars seem exaggerated & designed to extract & launder maximum resources from countries that have their own serious problems.

 

[arrall]

@mal3volent In your eyes, at what point will there be enough bad apples for you to admit that the whole bunch has been spoiled?

It takes the unique arrogance of a conservative, right-wing American to ignore two people who are telling them what things are like on the ground in favour of “Well they haven’t outright stated that their goal is to kill civilians so it must just be a few bad apples, even though there are thousands of these incidents and none of the offenders are ever disciplined.”

 

[mal3volent]

@mal3volent In your eyes, at what point will there be enough bad apples for you to admit that the whole bunch has been spoiled?

It takes the unique arrogance of a conservative, right-wing American to ignore two people who are telling them what things are like on the ground in favour of “Well they haven’t outright stated that their goal is to kill civilians so it must just be a few bad apples, even though there are thousands of these incidents and none of the offenders are ever disciplined.”

why not respond to my last lengthy post directed to you rather than just ad hom-ing me?
I think we all know why.

 

[arrall]

why not respond to my last lengthy post directed to you rather than just ad hom-ing me?
I think we all know why.

I asked you a question that has gone unanswered.
What part of that is an ad hominem?
It is factually arrogant to ignore multiple on-the-ground accounts and the numerous sources that have been provided to you in favour of “but IDF good, Hamas bad”

 

[mal3volent]

I asked you a question that has gone unanswered.
What part of that is an ad hominem?
It is factually arrogant to ignore multiple on-the-ground accounts and the numerous sources that have been provided to you in favour of “but IDF good, Hamas bad”

I didn't ignore anything. I responded to @tryptakid and very much value their input even though I'm sure we disagree on a lot. Do you see how others are able to have a discourse with each other without accusing them of being racist, or arrogant, or insulting their nationality or other personal attributes? (unique arrogance of a conservative, right-wing American)

You've also implied that anyone who supports Israel is racist. That we care more about white children dying than brown children. That we support genocide even though you can't factually support the claim of genocide. So for like the 73rd time now, can you please stop? You need to learn that this is a place where a variety of viewpoints are allowed to be shared, not just one. Maybe you aren't used to that but please try to respect that's how we operate here.

of “but IDF good, Hamas bad”

yet another example of your bad faith arguments. I've explained why this doesn't represent my views a dozen times but you continue to lie and misrepresent.

 

[mal3volent]

"The tear gas attacks were related to the proximity of the University (in the West Bank) to the wall with Israel proper. There were times that tear gas would just be fired at the University for unknown reasons - probably because there was a high concentration of young men who attend university - though there were also times where students had broken a hole in the wall and IDF responded by firing rubber bullets at the school, launching tear gas, and this resulted in the university having to evacuate.

Thank you for the extra info. So there were times when the gas was used because the students were attempting to breach the border wall, and other times when it was used for unknown reasons. I think it's definitely possible that IDF soldiers often use excessive force when dealing with these situations, and as we've discussed tensions run high when both sides have been opposed for so long. This is why I asked for more details though, because in your previous post you seemed to be implying that IDF soldiers deliberately attacked students for the hell of it, with no context whatsoever. Would it be fair to say that at least some of this could be explained by the close proximity of the school with the border, and the involvement of some students with said border breach? But also that there have also been times when some IDF soldiers overreacted or acted excessively?

 

[mal3volent]

Regarding men being pulled off buses and held at gunpoint/hit - these reasons were frequent and never made clear, it was just something that would happen on a pretty regular basis. Depending on who you ask, you might get a number of different explanations".

Yeah I would have to assume this happens quite a bit. Again if I'm being entirely realistic I have to assume that there were times when these incidents were entirely unjustified but also times when they were. Did your wife ever witness examples of Palestinians provoking or outright attacking IDF soldiers? Because I certainly have seen tons of video footage.

 

[arrall]

You've also implied that anyone who supports Israel is racist.

No, I’ve implied that YOU are racist.

You need to learn that this is a place where a variety of viewpoints are allowed to be shared, not just one. Maybe you aren't used to that but please try to respect that's how we operate here.

The hypocrisy here is shocking.
I have never attempted to remove posts expressing opposing viewpoints. I can’t say the same for you.

Your viewpoint is welcome, but you can expect it to be ridiculed if it is blatantly denying genocide.

Here is a summary of a report released by the UN Human Rights council detailing why Israel’s current actions constitute a genocide. If you truly care about debating this issue in good faith, go take 20 minutes to read it.

So for like the 73rd time now, can you please stop?

You keep engaging with my posts and then asking me to stop when I say something you don’t like, like the child who punches their sibling and then runs behind their mother’s legs.

If you don’t want to debate, stop engaging and responding to my posts. If you respond then why wouldn’t I respond in turn?

 

[mal3volent]

No, I’ve implied that YOU are racist.

Thanks for the clarification. Interesting take given like 75% of my friends and partners throughout my entire life have been non-white. You cannot find one shred of evidence to support your claim. But it obviously does not bother you to make statements that have no basis in reality, you've proven that over and over again.

The hypocrisy here is shocking.
I have never attempted to remove posts expressing opposing viewpoints. I can’t say the same for you.

For everyone's reference, I reported a propaganda-ish image on discord that heavily romanticized the death of Aaron Bushnell (portraying him as a martyr who died a gloriously brave death when in fact he was most likely mentally unwell and died in horrible agony) because I was concerned it might be triggering to random passersby who could be feeling depressed or suicidal. In the report ticket I was quickly ganged up on, insulted, and harassed by a very cultish group of individuals who informed me that ackchyually 'self-immolation isn't suicide'. Now, that may sound shocking or unreasonable to the average person... but trust me when I say that statement is perfectly par for the course there.

I never attempted to delete the image myself, I simply reported it because I was genuinely concerned for the well being of others who have suffered with suicidal thoughts like I have most of my life. Nevertheless, @arrall has continually suggested that I was being disingenuous and my only motive was trying to censor "pro-Palestine" speech.

For anybody who has ever visited our discord server, you'll know how absurd it is to think that far-left speech could EVER be censored there (or that I would be naive enough to attempt such a thing). It is actually comical. To the contrary, conservatives, moderates, and even left-of-center individuals like myself are routinely banned and/or marginalized there (unless they choose to not participate in political discourse and keep their opinions to themselves. OR just can't stomach the environment there and leave voluntarily).

Just thought I'd get my two cents tossed in real quick since arrall keeps referencing it in such a cryptic way. Sorry for being off topic but I had to set the record straight. It is at least tangentially on topic, I guess.

Your viewpoint is welcome, but you can expect it to be ridiculed if it is blatantly denying genocide.

Ridicule is a very illuminating choice of words there. (to laugh at someone in an unkind way)

Do you think that is appropriate behavior here?

I suppose it's good that you're at least being honest. I would point out though that I can't blatantly deny something that isn't actually happening. (As many have demonstrated throughout this thread). Genocide implies intent. If they intended to genocide them I don't think they would have gone to such lengths to evacuate so many in the first place. Unless that was just part of their master plan. Those Jews, always concocting devious plans...

I think the more reasonable explanation is that civilians die in war. That is a sad fact that is shown all throughout history. I believe Israel had the right to wage war on Hamas and to neutralize their capability to reorganize. If you disagree the onus is on you to explain an alternative method of neutralizing a well funded militant group who have publicly stated their intentions of repeating October 7 over and over.

Here is a summary of a report released by the UN Human Rights council detailing why Israel’s current actions constitute a genocide. If you truly care about debating this issue in good faith, go take 20 minutes to read it.

Why would you reference the UN as a credible source in this discussion? They still refuse to officially condemn Hamas. You do know UN workers actually participated in the Oct 7 attacks, right? That Hamas routinely uses their buildings as safe havens or hiding places? Considering the totality of these factors I'm not sure how you could ever deny a strong bias against Israel. I mean it has been well documented for decades.

If you don’t want to debate, stop engaging and responding to my posts. If you respond then why wouldn’t I respond in turn?

Lol. I have no problem debating with you or anyone. All I've ever asked is that you comply with the rules of the forum and stop taking cheap shots, ad-homing me, and otherwise taking everything to such a personal level. That's what I want you to stop. Form coherent arguments without insulting me. Engage in good faith without deliberately misrepresenting my views. Stop screeching racist when I'm not. Stop making condescending comments about my nationality. I'm not the only one who is tired of this shit.

 

[nepalnt21]

You do know UN workers actually participated in the Oct 7 attacks, right?

there's that one guy who they got on film doing some stuff which is supposedly oct. 7th, right? that guy that's whole family is now dead? or most of his family or whatever?

who else did, again? cause i can't really find any good evidence to support your claim. please, could you present some? maybe my imagination for search terms is a bit rusty.

anyway, even if the 12 ppl did... is that a good reason to wage a war of attrition against a country of children?

 

[Electrum1]

"a country of children" lmao

 

[Electrum1]

You're such a keyword gaslighter

 

[mal3volent]

there's that one guy who they got on film doing some stuff which is supposedly oct. 7th, right? that guy that's whole family is now dead? or most of his family or whatever?

So... his family died so that gives him a pass to become a terrorist?

Hamas Military Compound Found Beneath UN Agency Headquarters in Gaza

GAZA CITY—Hidden deep below the headquarters of the United Nations’ aid agency for Palestinians here is a Hamas complex with rows of computer servers that Israel’s armed forces say served as an important communications center and intelligence hub for the Islamist militant group.

Guess there's an excuse for that too?

who else did, again? cause i can't really find any good evidence to support your claim. please, could you present some? maybe my imagination for search terms is a bit rusty.

well you see, Hamas doesn't exactly keep public records. They count their dead soldiers as civilian. And it is well known that non-Hamas "civilians" participated in the attacks on October 7. So the definitions of these words are a little screwy aren't they? Personally I think common sense says if there was one there was probably more than one. I think it's hilarious though that we are even having this conversation.

I mean when you look at the totality of all these things, the UN doesn't look great do they? Won't vote to condemn terrorists...their buildings being used by terrorists...their workers participating in terrorist attacks... but we're supposed to view them as credible or give a shit about anything they say ?