Israel is under attack

[Pissed_and_messed]

Saying you're going to to committ genocide by killing innocent people and then going ahead and doing it is genocide.

you don't need to say it out loud to outer group for it to be genocide. Killing innocent civilians knowing that is going to happen is genocide or war crime in most circumstances, and at least in this case we are talking about.

I am not putting words into your mouth, you have already stated what you are advocating for. You just need to catch up with the fact, you are okay with genocide and war crimes. You just rationalize the acts to something that is "exclusively self-defence".

people who do evil or support evil, don't always realize they are evil. They perceive they are just executing justice.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Neither Palestinians or Jews are a race, so "genocide" can't happen to either. .

Please continue with the discussion.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

weirdly enough, they are distinct populations enough to be called with different names.

There are no different human races anyway according to most scientists.

 

[Soso78]

Have read it, they haven't, it's a notorious fraud. That you believe it tells me more about you then anything.

Like I said, we're not going to have this conversation here. You can talk about the scary Jews in whatever other internet cesspit you want. We're not doing it here. So last warning dude.

Can you stop straw manning me? If you need to invent my arguments, you've already lost.

Responding to an attack isn't genocide. Killing people in war isn't genocide.

Saying you're going to to committ genocide by killing innocent people and then going ahead and doing it is genocide.

Hopefully that clears this up for you.

U don’t think the unbelievable amount of civilians and children being killed is excessive?

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

Applies almosy perfectly to what Hamas have been doing both to Israel and to its own people. But oh yes, Israel are the bad guys here. Of course.

Let's get back to this. Is the reason you didn't answer to question
a) you are tired of repeating the same argumentation, so rather just hijacked the conversation (this is also how I am acting in this thread, because I am so damn tired with repeating myself ad nauseaum but occasionally get frustrated and/or see the low hanging fruit)
b) you considered that genocide can be argumented for with the fact, some other people are trying to commit genocide (so it is no genocide anymore [notice I didn't state that the targets of genocide were the same people that were trying to commit genocide])? (check posts #3717 and #3702)

e: yeah it was not question, I realized it just now, moreso just statement.

 

[montel]

I received a warning in this discussion for bringing up the topic of "why?" all these countries are supporting Israel, and in turn the massacre of thousands and thousands of innocent people.

I was warned that that's crazy talk - and perhaps I didn't make the point clear enough, but it is relevant - because most sane people wanted this to stop a long time ago, most before it even started.

So why do our governments act the way they do?

Well, I'm not only one asking this question - and I hope this doesn't get me another warning because it IS relevant here.

Watch this:



Perhaps some irrefutable facts may quell any tempers - and so far I've been quite impressed with the freedom to speak here. If I don't post here again, you'll know it's because I've been banned and, well, you're not actually free to post here.

We'll see.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

I honestly don't want to watch 8 minutes of video, but I have observed weird attitudes here-like being accused of antisemitism for blaming Israel government, which is fucking ridiculous, because it is just fucking another government, and, by default, fucking shit. They are all fucking crooked shit in the end of the day. I also have observed real antisemitism and I don't like it and can see the point of moderating when it becomes hate speech.

Issue is, english is not even my native language, and I have very poor listening abilities even in my native language. I prefer text formed content. If you can deliver your point in that form, I am intrigued about what you have to say.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

You're actually siding with the people who have stated they want to wipe out another ethnicity and who intentionally paint a target on their own innocent citizens. Your moral confusion astounds me.

It's your moral confusion that astounds ME, from a psychedelic head no less, pfff, first of, nobody has been siding with Hamas let's be real. Second, have you not seen the numerous statements from Israeli officials intending to wipe out the Palestinians (had to catch myself not saying "another ethnicity" because I well get the regular chaps on my cap), should I find them for you? The Israelis don't have to paint a target on their own innocent citizens cause they have billions in high grade weapon funding and any resolution that would slightly put the damper on Israeli plans just gets blocked by old USA.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

https://law4palestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/1-Database-of-Israeli-Incitement-to-Genocide-15th-January-2024-DECISION-MAKERS.pdf

https://law4palestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2-Database-of-Israeli-Incitement-to-Genocide-15th-January-2024-LEGISLATORS.pdf

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

How is one even supposed to cheer for Hamas?
Look wow they killed 5 soldiers, took out a tank. Nobody is doing this, it's ridiculous.

But that's exactly the problem, even raising the question of "hmmm maybe they should not be destroying all those homes and randomly killing these thousands of innocent people even when they have a choice", bam PRO HAMAS boy. Hmm those officials

I condemn Hamas and I cheer for the warriors that have at least some human decency arguing here and in the other thread every day, you know who you are.
I can't include you @montel sorry dude, the anti jew conspiracy stuff is too much

 

[swilow]

I am not putting words into your mouth

you are okay with genocide and war crimes.

Hmm.

 

[swilow]

It's your moral confusion that astounds ME, from a psychedelic head no less, pfff, first of, nobody has been siding with Hamas let's be real.

Taking psychedelics doesn't mean that I'm a pacifist. There are times when war is necessary and I happen to believe this is one of them.

So I think that Hamas is responsible both for provoking Israel and for engineering a situation wherein any response from Israel gets Palestinian civilians killed. For Hamas, the death of its people wins the only war they can- which is the propaganda war. When I suggest people are taking their side, I mean that people are seeing the situation Hamas themselves created and blaming Israel, which is exactly what Hamas want you to do. When you find yourself having been pushed into a position by terrorists, you should be concerned. The truth is, this wouldn't be happening if October 7th didn't happen.

Life is awful for Palestinians and Israelis while Hamas govern Gaza. There is really no upward trajectory for the people while this regime persists. In a different world, there would be different ways to remove Hamas- in this world, there isn't. Short term horror is better than long term, possibly endless suffering on both sides. That's what I mean by moral confusion- people cannot see that there is an analysis to be made whereby some death and suffering now will hopefully prevent much more future death and suffering.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

For Hamas, the death of its people wins the only war they can- which is the propaganda war. When I suggest people are taking their side, I mean that people are seeing the situation Hamas themselves created and blaming Israel, which is exactly what Hamas want you to do. When you find yourself having been pushed into a position by terrorists, you should be concerned.

But this has been going on for decades, it's a back and forth. Only the Israeli back and forth has been much more brutal, consistently, every time since they have the means.

But you're doing the exact opposite! "people are seeing the exact situation Israel themselves created and blaming Hamas, which is exactly what the Israeli hardliners want you to do. When you find yourself having been pushed into a position by ruthless extremists, you should be concerned."

You see? And it makes a lot of sense too, tons of arguments for it.

So the reality is somewhere in the middle.

But the reality now is that Gaza is a wreck, Hamas still standing, schools, universities, libraries, hundreds of thousands of houses gone, 30k dead. Everything still ongoing and no signs of stopping, 10s of thousands more will die.
I find it very distasteful to be talking like, ok 20k more Hamas fighters, will take like 60k more innocents, everyone homeless, no food etc BUT it is the ONLY way to prevent more suffering in the future.

Not saying this is your opinion, but it is the opinion of the Israeli government and they will not stop at anything.

Let's take their word for it and keep one eye closed for the children deaths.

So indeed, there is AN analysis but it's not the only analysis and coincidentally it's the Israeli analysis concerning huh.

It is the duty of the international community or whatever to actually think maybe hmmm this is not entirely reasonable and we should try to come to some other solution. And they will swilow, in time, and "the analysis" will have proven wrong and long long term horror will follow, mainly for the Palestinians.

 

[nepalnt21]

reasons don't matter

reasons DO NOT matter in terms of war crimes and ethnic cleansing. there is ZERO excuse.

and please stop trying to dishonestly imply that i support or refuse to condemn hamas. it's really gotten old and adds nothing to the conversation.

and crying for human loss is not weak. did you not cry when hamas did its inexcusable act on civilians? sorry, but being unable to weap for loss of innocent life kinda seems to me to be a disability.

 

[nepalnt21]

blaming Israel,

remember the poll where almost all israeli jews blame largely their own government for october 7th? did you forget what the idf was doing on that fateful day?

 

[swilow]

refuse to condemn hamas

I know.

 

[swilow]

So the reality is somewhere in the middle

Okay, sure. I have no love whatsoever for Israels rght wing government and think Israel would be much safer without them, but I don't think it's especially reasonable to equate jihadist terrorists with a corrupt government. Both are an evil, one is worse. I just support the right of the Jews to defend themselves. They would be conducting a similar war even if a leftist government was in place.

find it very distasteful to be talking like, ok 20k more Hamas fighters, will take like 60k more innocents, everyone homeless, no food etc BUT it is the ONLY way to prevent more suffering in the future.

Did I say it was the only way? Or make any of the statements you're finding distasteful? But either way, finding something distasteful isn't an argument.

 

[Soso78]

Taking psychedelics doesn't mean that I'm a pacifist. There are times when war is necessary and I happen to believe this is one of them.

So I think that Hamas is responsible both for provoking Israel and for engineering a situation wherein any response from Israel gets Palestinian civilians killed. For Hamas, the death of its people wins the only war they can- which is the propaganda war. When I suggest people are taking their side, I mean that people are seeing the situation Hamas themselves created and blaming Israel, which is exactly what Hamas want you to do. When you find yourself having been pushed into a position by terrorists, you should be concerned. The truth is, this wouldn't be happening if October 7th didn't happen.

Life is awful for Palestinians and Israelis while Hamas govern Gaza. There is really no upward trajectory for the people while this regime persists. In a different world, there would be different ways to remove Hamas- in this world, there isn't. Short term horror is better than long term, possibly endless suffering on both sides. That's what I mean by moral confusion- people cannot see that there is an analysis to be made whereby some death and suffering now will hopefully prevent much more future death and suffering.

War is sometimes necessary.
Murdering thousands of children isn’t though.

“Some death and sufffering now” ?? Some?

Israel has just cleansed Gaza. To the point there isn’t a Gaza anymore.
And you think it was to get rid of hammas

 

[montel]

How is one even supposed to cheer for Hamas?
Look wow they killed 5 soldiers, took out a tank. Nobody is doing this, it's ridiculous.

But that's exactly the problem, even raising the question of "hmmm maybe they should not be destroying all those homes and randomly killing these thousands of innocent people even when they have a choice", bam PRO HAMAS boy. Hmm those officials

I condemn Hamas and I cheer for the warriors that have at least some human decency arguing here and in the other thread every day, you know who you are.
I can't include you @montel sorry dude, the anti jew conspiracy stuff is too much

So I'm guessing you didn't actually watch that video I posted then? I agree, my initial post was a bit out there - but that video is closer to what I was trying to say. The Israeli government doesn't just have a "hand" in all UK intelligence, it runs the very system that props it up.

And regarding many of the comments above - so many of you are forgetting that Israel, in effect, created Hamas by treating the Palestinians like crap for the last half a century. When you treat people like scum, imprison them, cut off water and gas pipe lines, steal their land - and nobody sticks up for you - yeah, you get Hamas.

To quote the head of the UN - "The events of October didn't happen in a vacuum" - it happened because they broke and had enough.

The brutality of the assault can only be measured by the punishment and brutality of the Israelis towards the Palestinians.

We also know that Israel is hell-bent on wiping out just about all Palestinians - it's their official military strategy and it's no secret. They are quite open about it.

It's one brutal aggressor wiping out its enemy. Or genocide, if you prefer that term.

 

[mal3volent]

And regarding many of the comments above - so many of you are forgetting that Israel, in effect, created Hamas by treating the Palestinians like crap for the last half a century. When you treat people like scum, imprison them, cut off water and gas pipe lines, steal their land - and nobody sticks up for you - yeah, you get Hamas.

oh yeah, totally makes sense. That explains all the Native American and African American terrorist groups that popped up after the atrocities committed to their people.

oh wait... never mind.