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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Israel is under attack

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mal3volent said:
I'm not saying that Muslim arabs don't deserve to live there in peace. I want that for all people. What I'm saying is that they don't have some special claim to that land that extends beyond what the Jews have. So the whole "living on stolen land" is kinda bullshit for those reasons and others I mentioned earlier.
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If you believe that Jews and Muslims have equal claim to the land, then you should be in opposition of Zionism.
 
Excellent video here from a Jewish Rabbi who is opposed to Zionism:



Palestine Nakba [disaster] Day message from Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss of Neturei Karta International.

"The Jewish people have no state!

They may call themselves the Zionist state, but they are not "Israel" and they are not the "Jewish State"!

Judaism is a religion, NOT a nationality!

Israel does NOT represent Jews.

Judaism is not Zionism. Anti-Zionism is not Antisemitism.
 
Tranced said:
There are people who's houses were taken in their lifetime.

Land has definitely been stolen.

You want to know the acceptable timeframe for it to be considered wrong or actionable?

Anybody who has lost land in their life time, who could present a valid legal case in a normal jurisdiction. Not silly 2000 years ago stuff, just make it simple; since the occupation.

It's absolutely wrong.
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the "stolen" descriptor still doesn't make sense on a large scale. I'm not saying there haven't been instances of Israeli authorities pushing people out of disputed territories. That has obviously been going on for decades, back and forth. Both sides thinking they have God on their side.

You say that 2000 years is silly, but 75 is not. That's your opinion but I'd say you'd agree others might disagree?

Anyways. I think it's sad religion still drives people to behave this way. I wish the world would move on.
 
mal3volent said:
the "stolen" descriptor still doesn't make sense on a large scale. I'm not saying there haven't been instances of Israeli authorities pushing people out of disputed territories. That has obviously been going on for decades, back and forth. Both sides thinking they have God on their side.

You say that 2000 years is silly, but 75 is not. That's your opinion but I'd say you'd agree others might disagree?

Anyways. I think it's sad religion still drives people to behave this way. I wish the world would move on.
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Who gives a shit about 2000 years ago, really? We are talking ancient times, we have no record of who people were. You could never provide a valid legal case.

People now are being directly affected. That's fucking evil.

Airstrike civilians to your self derived righteousness seems to be the idea.
 
mal3volent said:
the "stolen" descriptor still doesn't make sense on a large scale. I'm not saying there haven't been instances of Israeli authorities pushing people out of disputed territories. That has obviously been going on for decades, back and forth. Both sides thinking they have God on their side.

You say that 2000 years is silly, but 75 is not. That's your opinion but I'd say you'd agree others might disagree?

Anyways. I think it's sad religion still drives people to behave this way. I wish the world would move on.
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I think you could take the religion out of it and this still wouldn't solve the problems.
 
Tranced said:
Who gives a shit about 2000 years ago, really? We are talking ancient times, we have no record of who people were. You could never provide a valid legal case.

People now are being directly affected. That's fucking evil.

Airstrike civilians to your self derived righteousness seems to be the idea.
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You're right about that. Lots of self derived righteousness.
 
JahBeeuS said:
Yea, if you care so deeply about this fight put your boots on the ground. It's rather well known that Hamas isn't hanging out above ground anyways...
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Apparently all the Hamas leaders are just waiting in the top of the flats like fools and they've taken most of them out.
 
mal3volent said:
the "stolen" descriptor still doesn't make sense on a large scale. I'm not saying there haven't been instances of Israeli authorities pushing people out of disputed territories. That has obviously been going on for decades, back and forth. Both sides thinking they have God on their side.

You say that 2000 years is silly, but 75 is not. That's your opinion but I'd say you'd agree others might disagree?

Anyways. I think it's sad religion still drives people to behave this way. I wish the world would move on.
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It's been going on back and forth? Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think the Palestinians have won back any of the land that was taken from them. And meanwhile Israel keeps taking more and more.
 
pharmakos said:
It's been going on back and forth? Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think the Palestinians have won back any of the land that was taken from them. And meanwhile Israel keeps taking more and more.
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so can you fact check this for me? How is it wrong?

Eretz Yisrael, אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל the land of Israel, is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

After the Roman conquest, Eretz Yisrael was occupied by the Roman Empire. They renamed this region Syria-Palestina.

Not only was there no connection to Arab peoples, the religion of Islam didn’t even exist at this time in history. During this era Arabs still lived in their homeland, the Arabian peninsula.

The population of Syria-Palestina at this time was Jewish people and occupying Romans.
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mal3volent said:
so can you fact check this for me? How is it wrong?
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I thought we were talking about the past 75 years.

And Arabs existed, and lived in the Levant, before Islam existed. The entire Levant was not Jewish. Does the fact that their families converted to Islam 600 years after the destruction of the Second Temple mean they lose ancestral rights to the land?

Heck we can go even further back to the times when most of the Jewish people lived in exile in Egypt or Babylon even...
 
Thinking I'm going to give up debating this shit online. Everyone has already made up their minds. Some say that they're okay with innocent civilians dying in the name of righteousness, others say that isn't okay, and somehow the people against the deaths of the innocent are considered the bad guys. If no one has changed their mind yet they're not going to. And it stresses me the hell out.
 
pharmakos said:
I thought we were talking about the past 75 years.

And Arabs existed, and lived in the Levant, before Islam existed. The entire Levant was not Jewish. Does the fact that their families converted to Islam 600 years after the destruction of the Second Temple mean they lose ancestral rights to the land?

Heck we can go even further back to the times when most of the Jewish people lived in exile in Egypt or Babylon even...
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I'm reading the first Arabs settled in the Levant 634-641.
Muhammad received his first revelation in 610.
 
mal3volent said:
So you think people would martyr themselves and fight over dirt if they knew their religion was bullshit?
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Yea man, humans are tribal beings. It's wired into our being. This group of people is always going to hate that group of people whether they have the same god or not, whether they get their life instructions from a Qu'Ran or a Talmud or Bible. Erase all of that shit and they'll still align themselves with their ancestral people.

Even in the U.S. where religion is becoming less and less important in all walks of life people still find reasons to hate each other.

"Those fuckers eat Kneidlach killl 'em"
"They don't like our matzo ball soup, yet they eat dawali - can you believe they stuff grape leaves? KILL EM"

Idk something like that - they'll always find a reason to fight. Religion may be an accelerant but it certainly would still be bloodshed over the past millenia of infighting between groups of people fighting for their people to be on top of the pile.

They all need a strong dose of MDMA in my humble opinion. But even then, I have little faith that small area will ever know peace until one tribe moves or is eliminated.
 
JahBeeuS said:
Yea man, humans are tribal beings. It's wired into our being. This group of people is always going to hate that group of people whether they have the same god or not, whether they get their life instructions from a Qu'Ran or a Talmud or Bible. Erase all of that shit and they'll still align themselves with their ancestral people.

Even in the U.S. where religion is becoming less and less important in all walks of life people still find reasons to hate each other.

"Those fuckers eat Kneidlach killl 'em"
"They don't like our matzo ball soup, yet they eat dawali - can you believe they stuff grape leaves? KILL EM"

Idk something like that - they'll always find a reason to fight. Religion may be an accelerant but it certainly would still be bloodshed over the past millenia of infighting between groups of people fighting for their people to be on top of the pile.

They all need a strong dose of MDMA in my humble opinion. But even then, I have little faith that small area will ever know peace until one tribe moves or is eliminated.
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I agree. People would still fight. People would still skirmish.

But they wouldn't be flying airplanes into buildings, suicide bombing themselves, and they wouldn't think that a piece of land was promised to them by God.
 
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