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Israel is under attack

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swilow said:
So after Hamas attack their innocent women and children, Israel should not respond? Has that worked for them in the past?

I understand what you're saying, but that isn't what my question was. It's how should Israel respond to the recent attacks? Not what they should have retroactively done, what should they do after the fact?

I get the sympathy people have for the Palestinians but I don't understand why so many just cannot extend that to the Jews. This is just not as simple as a colonial oppressor fighting the helpless poor people. It's a group who escaped genocide confronted by religious extremists who want their entire people to die.
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Jews may have escaped the holocaust but palestinians were still robbed of land.

If being okay with having your land stolen is to be considered a basic prerequisite for human decency, the moral equation won't add up.

This is very simple stuff. We could make plenty of hyperbolic parables to illustrate the absurdity of such moral claims.
 
I will respond to Swilow after my coffee, but just out of interest, why did the Daily Mail repost this, so that it's currently showing up up in searches for news/news sections of search engines? That's how I found it. It's a 20 year old article which should have no relevance to today?

Saddam Hussein calls for holy war

Saddam Hussein has called for a jihad - holy war - against the US led invasion of Iraq.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
Saddam Hussein calls for holy war

Saddam Hussein has called for a jihad - holy war - against the US led invasion of Iraq.

"The aggression that the aggressors are carrying out against the stronghold of faith is an aggression on the religion, the wealth, the honour and the soul and an aggression on the land of Islam," Saddam said in a statement read on national television by his information minister.

"Therefore, Jihad is a duty in confronting them," Saddam added, saying "those who are martyred will be rewarded in heaven. Seize the opportunity, my brothers."

The statement was issued as US forces were reported within 50 miles of Baghdad and as B52 bombers were pounding Republican Guard positions north of Karbala.

Saddam has delivered two televised addresses since the attack began March 20. It was unclear why he did not appear and instead had the statement read by Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf.

"Strike at them, fight them," Saddam's statement said. "They are aggressors, evil, accursed by God. You shall be victorious and they shall be vanquished."

"Fight them everywhere the way you are fighting them today," the brief statement said. "And don't give them a chance to catch their breath until they declare it and withdraw from the lands of the Muslims, defeated and cursed in this life and the after life."
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pharmakos said:
Nah i don't think the violence on either side is justified. Israel definitely isn't just striking at Hamas tho. Pictures of North Gaza show near complete destruction of every structure. And they're using the excuse "we can't help it if Hamas is using innocent civilians as human shields." Thing is... there's other methods of taking out Hamas besides carpet bombing. But they're not willing to risk their own lives -- despite not caring if innocent Palestinians die as collateral damage.
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Like what? Israel is happy to precision target assets in the other adjacent states, they have the technology and intelligence to do that. An airport runway, a military installation. But Gaza is so unbelievably dense there really are only two viable options, which is airstrikes (and accepting collateral damage) or going in by ground and suffering heavy losses due to the nature of urban warfare. Israel can't afford to throw away men or resources on ground offensives, being realistic. If they become too weak then surrounding actors will certainly take advantage and invade.
pharmakos said:
I have Muslim friends from the Middle East, and Zionism at the expense of everyone else is the number one reason they cite as being unhappy with Israel.
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If they have been directly affected, fair enough. But have they? All these people moaning in the UK and elsewhere on the streets shouting "free free Palestine!", I bet you the overwhelming majority have not and are just looking for an excuse to be angry. Like the BLM movement, virtually none of those people have been directly affected by the actions of the past and are just looking to express anger. In both cases it doesn't mean injustices haven't happened, but you're being selfish if you believe your anger is going to bring anything other than more suffering into the now.
pharmakos said:
Yup, like I said, there would be anti-Semite Muslims either way, but the way the Western world came in and exiled 3/4 of a million people to make the state of Israel very much has polarized and radicalized the people. Also doesn't help that the US has put a bunch of totalitarian religious regimes into power in the Middle East.
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Regardless of what the USA, UK, France, etc, have done to the Middle East, let's not pretend the Arab world would have been at peace otherwise. That is just nonsense. We have to acknowledge the fact that Muslim's have a religious foundation that very easily lends itself to encouraging violence and hatred, in conjunction perhaps with genetic, environmental, and cultural factors that exacerbate this even further.
Tranced said:
Not bomb civilians who will inherently want to wage war against them. Act with peace, love, humility. Accept their wrongs, give land back. Not kill children who are innocent. Not airstrike buildings where innocent children are sleeping. Not meddle in the countries politics to perpetuate war. Is that so outlandish to think?
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It is outlandish in my opinion. Do you really think if Israel made all these concessions that the problem would go away? Not a chance.
 
If Israel stopped enforcing border restrictions in Gaza, stopped their patrols and bombings, and removed the laws enforcing ethnic cleansing of Israel, it would be a huge step. But that won't happen because Israel is currently run by insane far right extremists so of course they're going to continue to be racist shits. It's embedded in the culture now, I don't know if Israel has the capacity to stop

They should also be removing settlers from the west bank. The settlers who are armed and kill Palestinians there


theintercept.com

Israeli Settlers Take Advantage of Gaza Chaos to Attack Palestinians in West Bank

Settlers and soldiers have killed 49 Palestinians in the West Bank since Saturday. At least two Palestinian villages have been entirely depopulated.
theintercept.com theintercept.com
 
mal3volent said:
How far do we go back to determine whose land it is?
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I don't really know. I'm just saying Palestine has a very human complaint going, and that siding with Israel isn't the obvious right thing to do even though Palestine is a worthless shithole.

My main point is that we shouldn't take sides. Moreover, we as Europeans and their descendants should truly cherish how far we've come from hopeless abrahamitic bickering which keeps entire countries in a perpetual death grip. Despite sometimes being polarized by controversial issues, we are much closer to each other than to the people of Palestine or Israel.
 
swilow said:
So after Hamas attack their innocent women and children, Israel should not respond? Has that worked for them in the past?

I understand what you're saying, but that isn't what my question was. It's how should Israel respond to the recent attacks? Not what they should have retroactively done, what should they do after the fact?

I get the sympathy people have for the Palestinians but I don't understand why so many just cannot extend that to the Jews. This is just not as simple as a colonial oppressor fighting the helpless poor people. It's a group who escaped genocide confronted by religious extremists who want their entire people to die.
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This. I have a hard time with the progressive left not understanding this. (But yet most live in large cities like Philly, where there are many shootings every night. They don’t give a shit about local on local violence)
It honestly leaves me scratching my head.

This I do know,
You come on my land and You touch my women, children, friends, and family, I’m gonna fuck you up. I’m going straight to my gun safe, properly arming myself, and coming for blood. And not stopping till one of us are fucking dead.

It doesn’t matter what color you are. What religion you follow or if your a democrat or republican.
When you cross that line of morality, most people will come for blood. And I honestly don’t blame them.

Stay safe out there in this crazy fucking world y’all
Always, fair winds and following seas
 
CaptnRon said:
This. I have a hard time with the progressive left not understanding this. (But yet most live in large cities like Philly, where there are many shootings every night. They don’t give a shit about local on local violence)
It honestly leaves me scratching my head.

This I do know,
You come on my land and You touch my women, children, friends, and family, I’m gonna fuck you up. I’m going straight to my gun safe, properly arming myself, and coming for blood. And not stopping till one of us are fucking dead.

It doesn’t matter what color you are. What religion you follow or if your a democrat or republican.
When you cross that line of morality, most people will come for blood. And I honestly don’t blame them.

Stay safe out there in this crazy fucking world y’all
Always, fair winds and following seas
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You seem to have a very short term memory. If you killed someone else's children and mothers you can expect they might come for yours
 
someguyontheinternet said:
You seem to have a very short term memory. If you killed someone else's children and mothers you can expect they might come for yours
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I would. But personally, that’s not an issue for me. I didn’t come onto (trespass) someone’s land first, rape their women, kill their babies, friends or family.

If I did, I would absolutely expect a swift and harsh retaliation.
 
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CaptnRon said:
I would. But personally, that’s not an issue for me. I didn’t come onto someone’s land first, rape their women, kill their babies, friends or family.

If I did, I would absolutely expect and swift and harsh retaliation.
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You're missing the point. Those are the things that Israel has done to Palestine
 
CaptnRon said:
You’re missing the point. They’ve both been trying to eradicate each other for millennia.

But, you absolutely cannot let a terrorist organization impose their will on you and your state. I’m not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.
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So Palestinians should just be okay with being ethnically cleansed? 😂

You probably side with the united states on manifest destiny huh. Who needed the native Americans anyhow amirite
 
Mjäll said:
I don't really know. I'm just saying Palestine has a very human complaint going, and that siding with Israel isn't the obvious right thing to do even though Palestine is a worthless shithole.

My main point is that we shouldn't take sides. Moreover, we as Europeans and their descendants should truly cherish how far we've come from hopeless abrahamitic bickering which keeps entire countries in a perpetual death grip. Despite sometimes being polarized by controversial issues, we are much closer to each other than to the people of Palestine or Israel.
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I agree that everyone should coexist and live in harmony as best we can.

But it seems like one side brings up the stolen land argument all the time, when as far as I can tell Jews have been there for thousands of years no? Before Islam was even a thing?

So all I was saying is maybe don't bring that argument up if you aren't willing to go all the way back. I personally don't think that shit matters though. The people there now deserve to live in peace no matter which side. But when you have terrorists hell bent on eradicating the other side that will be impossible.
 
mal3volent said:
I agree that everyone should coexist and live in harmony as best we can.

But it seems like one side brings up the stolen land argument all the time, when as far as I can tell Jews have been there for thousands of years no? Before Islam was even a thing?

So all I was saying is maybe don't bring that argument up if you aren't willing to go all the way back. I personally don't think that shit matters though. The people there now deserve to live in peace no matter which side. But when you have terrorists hell bent on eradicating the other side that will be impossible.
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The point of that is that the land is still currently being stolen, see my post about Israeli settlers in the west bank killing Palestinians. Why is that happening? My point is they should stop and coexist, but Israel has a bunch of insane far right policies that enforce ethnic cleansing of the land of non Jews
CaptnRon said:
But it was alright for the Jews to be? You some sorta closet proud boy or something fucking weird? Why so anti-semetic bro?
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Being anti Zionist is not the same as being anti semitic. The fact that you think it is tells me all I need to know 😂
 
someguyontheinternet said:
Because we aren't actively killing native Americans and taking their land. Israel is doing that to Palestine right now
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you are living on stolen land though. And are currently profiting from the blood spilled by native Americans. Everything that is yours now is theirs by right.
 
mal3volent said:
I agree that everyone should coexist and live in harmony as best we can.

But it seems like one side brings up the stolen land argument all the time, when as far as I can tell Jews have been there for thousands of years no? Before Islam was even a thing?

So all I was saying is maybe don't bring that argument up if you aren't willing to go all the way back. I personally don't think that shit matters though. The people there now deserve to live in peace no matter which side. But when you have terrorists hell bent on eradicating the other side that will be impossible.
Click to expand...

I know the story is complicated and jews have a history there aswell.

But it's natural that Palestians bring up that argument, since they are most recently affected by land theft. If the pro-Israel side brings it up, it becomes reactionary whataboutism. Then there needs to be a much stronger claim, because it's much farther back in history.

Also, jews have sort of integrated exile and minority status into their cultural identity. It gets complicated that way.
 
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