Misc Is tianeptine similar to opioids and is it effective for withdrawal relief? I bought a bottle of ZAZA Red

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

I've heard horror stories about tianeptine withdrawal, but i only plan on taking it as an occasional opioid substitute, when I'm having withdrawals, or when I'm feeling under the weather. Any info would be much appreciated. I mostly just need help sleeping through a flu. Kratom usually helps, but I think being sick has canceled out it's usefulness.

 

[negrogesic]

The store brands of tianeptine are hit or miss. Sometimes, even the pills within the same bottle are different.

Problem with buying the pure powders online are of course self-control issues since it is short-acting and wildly addictive stuff, so it's easy to get way out of hand when you have the pure powder. I know this from painful experience, having a 1.5g-2g daily tianeptine habit for a number of months. Coming off it was pretty bad, requiring benzos and kratom, but while severe, the main phase of the withdrawal is fairly short (compared to other opioids). 2g of tianeptine is roughly equivalent to 250mg of oxycodone in terms narcotic effects (calculated on the basis that 500mg of good tianeptine feels like around 60mg of oxycodone), but the withdrawal from 2g of tianeptine, while severe, isn't as bad or as long lasting as the withdrawal from 250mg of oxycodone. The acute phase of tianeptine withdrawal is pretty short, maybe around 4-5 days. Those who say tianeptine withdrawal is worse than heroin withdrawal have never experienced severe heroin withdrawal (which, from my personal experience, is far worse).

But I've tried the Zaza red stuff sold in stores and it feels pretty weak compared to tianeptine powder.. I've had some bottles that felt like it little to no tianeptine and some that had a fair amount. Either way, I find that I have to consume an entire bottle to get a buzz. Sometimes two bottles.

And I wouldn't recommend tianeptine for sleeping though, at least, I wouldn't recommend taking a sizeable dose right before bed because it is very stimulating. That said, when i used to mess with pure powder, I would take say a gram and half in a single oral dose at like 11am, and the sleep i got that night was great. Though it is short acting, if you take a giant dose it can last quite a while as the body struggles to eliminate it from your system.

But yeah, becareful with tianeptine. I had never actually ever seen it (Zaza, Tata, Pegasus etc) in a smoke shop in my area, and figured it was like midwest/southern thing. But 6 months ago I was at a different smokeshop and was surprised to see Zaza and all the various tianeptine brands there. This concerned me, because i thought, "ah shit, now I know they sell tianeptine right down the street, and I'll be hearing it call my name". Of course I bought a bunch, different brands, and fortunately yet disappointingly, they all sucked pretty bad and were so weak and expensive that I haven't been back, other than once to try some different brands -- which sucked too. I even opened them up and tasted the powders, because i used to have a powder tianeptine habit and I know the taste very well (it is intensely bitter). Some clearly tasted like tianeptine, whereas a few had zero tianeptine. None of them had a very strong taste, like pure tianeptine.

But if you take enough, there is a high. But its incredibly expensive for what it is. You hear of poor hicks who are addicted to hundreds of dollars/day of Zaza -- which probably is equivalent to $10 of pure tianeptine powder. That said, if said hick bought pure powder they'd likely just wind up with a bigger addiction, administering it by the tablespoon.

Either way, becareful, it is a highly addictive substance, but in my opinion the smokeshop grade tianeptine (Zaza etc.) just isn't worth it (and the high is dirtier than good powder tianeptine). I'd stick with kratom or kratom extracts.

 

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

Thanks for the much-needed advice. I'm really glad I read your response before taking any before bed. I was under the impression that it produced a sleepy, opioid-like high rather than being a stimulant (and aside from caffeine, uppers aren't my cup of tea). I still haven't taken any. I'm very hesitant about taking substances that I know very little about. I have a couple of other important questions about it as well. Firstly, does it really cancel out/block the effects of other opioids and if so, how long would I need to wait before kratom or a real opiate would be effective again? One of the tianeptine brands also contains kratom, so maybe it doesn't cancel out kratom (and maybe kratom acts as a potentiator). And secondly, if it does cause a nasty withdrawal, how many consecutive days straight of taking tianeptine would I expect this to happen? I would prefer to avoid that at all costs. I wasn't planning on taking it longer than a day or 2 before taking a week long break from it before dosing again. Since I've heard that one's tolerance to tianeptine builds up shockingly quick compared to other opioids, I figured if i only take it once a week I could use that as a loophole to keep my tolerance relatively low and avoid withdrawal.

 

[negrogesic]

I have a couple of other important questions about it as well. Firstly, does it really cancel out/block the effects of other opioids and if so, how long would I need to wait before kratom or a real opiate would be effective again?

It does not block the effects of other opioids, and it does not cause precipitated withdrawal (like suboxone does), so there is no waiting period required before taking it. So it can be used in place of other opioids or in combination with other opioids. Again, it is quite stimulating, and I've always regretted taking it right before bed. But whenever I've taken a massive dose early in the day, I've slept like a baby that night. By massive im talking big doses, like doses that cause vomiting. I hate vomiting and rarely do, but I would sometimes take such giant doses that I was high enough to where I was "ok with it".

I really liked tianeptine for a while, enough to get physically addicted to it (daily 24/7 use) for about 5 months. By that point, I would go into withdrawal merely 4 hours after taking. But I feel like since then (2017), either something changed in the quality or something in me changed, because it kind of lost it magic. The pure powder sold today is pretty low quality, and the Zaza is even worse.

Yet if you take enough, it will do something. Aside from its addictiveness, it is a pretty safe opioid, hard to OD on, not particularly toxic etc (this is why it hasn't been federally banned yet -- it just doesn't kill or injure people very often, even children who accidentally consume it). It doesn't suppress breathing nearly to the same extent as other opioids. That's why it's legal in most states.

In terms of how it feels, it is sort of like "oxycodone-light", fast acting, with a stimulating/motivating quality. Back in 2016/2017, the pure powders were stronger, and 500mg of tianeptine felt like maybe 60mg of oxycodone. The new powders aren't as strong. I'd say with Zaza red, one whole bottle (15 capsules) is roughly equal to around 50mg-80mg of oxycodone in strength. The strongest batch of Zaza red that I've tried felt like it contained 50mg of tianeptine per pill. Felt dirtier than a pure powder form, and a little different.

But your mileage may vary, I might be just be permanently desensitized to tianeptine because I used to take over a gram per dose. Still, I think my estimation of max 50mg tianeptine per pill is pretty accurate. Supposedly it used to be stronger, but I don't know. I've heard of smokeshop owners offering kratom users free samples of Zaza (or other tianeptine containing pills), knowing how addictive it is, in attempt at gaining new customers. This is a horrible thing to do to someone, and if I witnessed this I'd be waiting for the owner in the parking lot after the shop closes to "discuss" this horrible practice a bit further. Takes a real shithead to do that.

 

[beebs76]

I've heard horror stories about tianeptine withdrawal, but i only plan on taking it as an occasional opioid substitute, when I'm having withdrawals, or when I'm feeling under the weather. Any info would be much appreciated. I mostly just need help sleeping through a flu. Kratom usually helps, but I think being sick has canceled out it's usefulness.

It reminds me a big of high dose Tramadol, and yes, I think it would help in Opiate withdrawal. I know it helped me with Benzo Withdrawal. I believe it has a stronger affinity to GABA in the brain than it does the opioid receptor however, but this is just my antidotal opinion.

 

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

Also how long should I space out my doses after taking tianeptine to avoid withdrawals from it? Like maybe 2 days in a row before taking a break? I might take some tonight but as someone who is very opioid-tolerant, i don't know what a good starting dose would be. It just says 700mg of proprietary blend (Combretum Quadrangular leaf, Tianeptine, and Piper Methysticum).