• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

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Is MDMA really the most powerful empathogen?

aET was withdrawn from the commercial market due to inducin agranulocytosis, wasn't it? I'm not sure if that's only a result of taking too much, or taking it too often, but it's a compound I'd personally be very careful using as agranulocytosis is some truly scary shit.

It's HOW a drug is consumed. For example, MDMA has 5HT2b affinity but unlike, say, aminorex, it's use hasn't resulted in heart-valve damage by the simple reason that people aren't consuming the stuff every day for weeks or months.

That is why we DID consider 3,4-methylenedioxy aminorex EXAMPLE XVIII of US3161650A - 3,4-methylenedioxyaminorex (MDAR). For the legally minded, I would not be surprised to discover that the methylenedixoybenzene system could be replaced by the benzofuran aromatic seen in 'Benzo Fury' AKA 6-APB.

For the technically minded, KOCN will not form the oxazoline ring - we tried and ended up with the N-substituted urea. Now, it MAY be possible to dehydrate that in a second step, but at the scale we were at, BrCN was OK. DO NOT play with BrCN unless you know what you are doing.
 
licked off a tit...imo, extremely emphathogenic...it really made me think...what if I had boobs? Could i lick my own tit? i pondered for hours, periodically motorboating drugs while deep in thought

I believe that the specific ROA you are describing is colloquially known as 'Boughing' after the disgraced Breakfast TV star Frank Bough. Boughing in a sex dungeon while chained to a medevil rack & being whipped by a dominatrix is known as 'Reboughing' or 'Boughing with Belgian Biscuit' (BBB).

 
LSD + 2C-B ranks in top 5 experiences but I think it somewhat ruined my non-combo 2C-B experiences thereafter. I'm thinking it will return to normal in a few years though. Bees were sooooo much more visual before. I completely give up on nitrous ever feeling as good as it used to. Longest permatolerance ever. Probably DXM too if I ever touched that rascally stuff again.
Rascally is the best adjective I've heard for anything in a while, thank you for introducing me to it haha.

Shulgin referred to 2C-D as pharmacological tofu, and while the only 2C I've ever used is 2C-B, of every psychedelic I've ever used, 2C-B is the most "tofu-like" in my personal opinion.
 
For the technically minded, KOCN will not form the oxazoline ring - we tried and ended up with the N-substituted urea. Now, it MAY be possible to dehydrate that in a second step, but at the scale we were at, BrCN was OK.
Are you aware of the dynamics behind this? I suspect that the oxygens in the methylenedioxy structure broke apart and then got attached to the unexpected position accidentally?

Edit: I'm the kind of chemist who's read OCAASL 1&2, a million and one research papers, the hive, etc but I've never gotten hands on with aminorexes specifically.

Another side note, are you aware of if anything like a 2,4,5-trisubstituted phenyl group has ever been put used in aminorex syntheses?
 
Are you aware of the dynamics behind this? I suspect that the oxygens in the methylenedioxy structure broke apart and then got attached to the unexpected position accidentally?

The first one we made was the p-Me (a serotonin releaser) and that was when we discovered the problem. NMR revealed exactly what we had. N-[2-hydroxy-2-(4-methylphenyl)ethyl]urea.
 
The first one we made was the p-Me (a serotonin releaser) and that was when we discovered the problem. NMR revealed exactly what we had. N-[2-hydroxy-2-(4-methylphenyl)ethyl]urea.
Were any side trials run on other para-alkylations? Other alkoxy subs might also be worth looking into, but I have yet to search the literature to see if this has already been done, currently eating dinner with the family.
 
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Were any side trials run on other para-alkylations? Other alkoxy subs might also be worth looking into, but I have yet to search the literature to see if this has already been done, currently eating dinner with the family.

No, we we looking for an entactogen. The patent covered the 3,4,5-trimethoxy and that was inactive so we concluded that 5HT2a affinity was unlikely. So we just made the p-Me and m-Me (more of a stimulant but shorter acting than plain aminorex) and then the 3,4-MD.
 
No, we we looking for an entactogen. The patent covered the 3,4,5-trimethoxy and that was inactive so we concluded that 5HT2a affinity was unlikely. So we just made the p-Me and m-Me (more of a stimulant but shorter acting than plain aminorex) and then the 3,4-MD.
That's really fascinating, thank you! I've wondered if the 2C-B-Phenylmorpholine being psychedelic indicated that other scaffolds DO actually exist. Expanding upon lucigenol and the constrained homologues of things like mescaline -> jimscaline and 2C-B -> TCB-2, or even the countless wackier variants of 2C-B such as 2C-B-AN, 2C-B-BZAP, 2C-B-PP, 2C-B-Indane, N-ethyl-2C-B, the beta methoxy/hydroxy/methyl variants, and then flipping all of these with methyl/alpha subs on the alpha position, and N-benzylation/hydroxylation/alkylatoion (like ethyl).

It seems like the 2,4,5 tri-substituted position is key, as 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenylmorpholine was totally inactive iirc. I suspect that there are likely at least a handful of new psychedelic scaffolds, quinolines included (and anything else we can pry out of a substructure of LSD. With LSD containing both the indole core and the phenethylamine core too, I wonder if we could take lessons learned from the extension and modification of phenethylamines and apply them to LSD. If somebody was a talented enough chemist to actually synthesize lysergic acid at some point but with structural modifications that make its internal phenethylamine structure resemble something more like a 2C-G[-3/4/5/N], that might be fascinating, you know?

Sorry for the vague hypotheticals I'm throwing out, they're just all things on my mind as someone deeply obsessed with the psychedelic SAR.
 
Well some genius clearly had a Chinese lab produce 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo aminorex. I haven't read a single trip report on that but I suspect it won't have decent 5HT2a affinity. I would be concerned that it might increase 5HT2b affinity which while not a disaster in a compound only consumed occasionally, isn't a step in the right direction.

I wounder if it's the same genius who had 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo benzylpiperazine made as well? That one is said to be a stimulant.
 
Well some genius clearly had a Chinese lab produce 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo aminorex. I haven't read a single trip report on that but I suspect it won't have decent 5HT2a affinity. I would be concerned that it might increase 5HT2b affinity which while not a disaster in a compound only consumed occasionally, isn't a step in the right direction.

I wounder if it's the same genius who had 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo benzylpiperazine made as well? That one is said to be a stimulant.
I've also heard of 2C-B-BZP being just a stimulant, but I'm not sure if that means that other 4-benzyl substitution wouldn't work. Even Trachsel when exploring the 2C-BI-X series (such as 2C-BI-8) stumbled upon some active 2C's, and possibly also DOx's/Alpha-ethyl/N-substituted variants. Maybe if something like an an indane, phenylmorphine, or piperazine variant of a 2C doesn't work with just a certain 4-substition, perhaps another would.

When the day comes that I'm a talented enough chemist to be exploring these, I absolutely will be to the best of my abilities tbh.
 
Maybe so. People have gone beyond the simple PEAs and found actives, but it does seem like isosteric bulk around the basic nitrogen is an issue.

There are some much more potent reuptake inhibitors BUT they may be hazardous.

McN5652 & JNJ-7925476 being examples.

I am really surprised that nobody has produced para ethynyl amphetamine, for example. A few supplier offer it as a research compound. While it's established that 4-MTA (para thiomethoxy amphetamine) has dangerous MAOI properties, I'm unsure about a para ethynyl.
 
34MDAR is good stuff
I was under the impression it was more of a stimulant with enactogenic properties vs an entactogen with stimulant properties.

Not saying I wouldn't try it <3

Also keep in mind it's the trans isomer of the MARs that is responsible for euphoria? I could be mistaken.

Funny quick side story. Some dude in colorado got popped for making 4-MAR but at the time at least only one isomer was specifically scheduled. They got him with kilos but in the end they could only charge him with the few percent that was the controlled isomer. It's one of the few instances of someone fighting the analogue act and essentially winning.. tho I've a few other stories I've not yet told.

Since then, the feds don't like to use the analogue act..


I digress...

Can't really beat MDMA for it's sheer serotonin balls to the walls release though others may say 5-MAPB is equal if not better. (I found it bland tbh).

There's also many serotogenic entactogens (I prefer that term to emapthogen) that I've not tried, so I'm really no expert.
 

As I've previously mentioned, there are papers on chiral reductive aminations, one can use a chiral auxiliary or, after resolution one could oxidize the (S) amine back to the achiral ketone and used as feedstock in the next batch. While the specification of chiral medicines in most nations requires >98% ee, in this case 95% ee would, I feel, be perfectly acceptable.

I will conclude that raecmic αMT display a lower ED50 for monoamine release than racemic MDMA. That was noted and why I always compared the compound as being an MDA substitute rather than an MDMA substitute. 75-100mg orally gives that long sledging effect that is the most obvious difference between the two.
 
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