Is kindling with opiates a thing?

[SilentRoller]

For those of you on this board that remember, I had an awful experience with tramadol/DHC after a car accident a fair while ago, that put me into opiate WDs (albeit mild). However the mental aspect was horrid (depression wise) and it put me off trams for life. Big up FUBAR and others who were a supportive in this time - your words and advice were not forgotten. Ain’t touched them since.

So on to the present. A few weeks ago, I developed a muscle injury through intensive BJJ training (Brazilian Jujitsu - not blowjobs for those wondering!). Went to the dr as it got pretty bad. He handed me a box of 30mg codeine phosphate. With my tramadol horror still etched in my mind is was super cautious. Kept the dose low (no more than 120mg) in a day. Did this for a couple of weeks (2.5 actually).

Stopped taking them as that was that. Day 2 rolls around, and I notice my legs feel a bit odd. Yep, it’s my old friend RLS again. This coupled with crap sleep. My RLS is mild I might add and sort of comes in waves. Sometimes I’ll go hours and not feel it. Been about 6/7 days and it’s still persisting - with low energy/motivation in the background. These are my only symptoms, however I recognise them instantly.

I’m confused to say the least. Does having experienced WDs before mean I will forever get symptoms if I use an opiate? Feels super scuzzy and almost junkie like. Never able to touch codeine without RLS greeting me at the end.

Sigh. It will end I know. Just frustrating especially as I wasn’t trying to get fucked!

 

[Jen X]

I quit methadone and dope and relapsed with prescription hydromorph , now back to dope. Just a month back on methadone gave me worse wd's then herion ever did. It was like i started from the beginning with no stomach issues . I have RLS but dope/methadone was keeping it at bay but it came back with a vengeance once i stopped.

Just try to get through it, there is medication for RLS. Best of luck to ya, it's definitely not easy

 

[steewith2ees]

For those of you on this board that remember, I had an awful experience with tramadol/DHC after a car accident a fair while ago, that put me into opiate WDs (albeit mild). However the mental aspect was horrid (depression wise) and it put me off trams for life. Big up FUBAR and others who were a supportive in this time - your words and advice were not forgotten. Ain’t touched them since.

So on to the present. A few weeks ago, I developed a muscle injury through intensive BJJ training (Brazilian Jujitsu - not blowjobs for those wondering!). Went to the dr as it got pretty bad. He handed me a box of 30mg codeine phosphate. With my tramadol horror still etched in my mind is was super cautious. Kept the dose low (no more than 120mg) in a day. Did this for a couple of weeks (2.5 actually).

Stopped taking them as that was that. Day 2 rolls around, and I notice my legs feel a bit odd. Yep, it’s my old friend RLS again. This coupled with crap sleep. My RLS is mild I might add and sort of comes in waves. Sometimes I’ll go hours and not feel it. Been about 6/7 days and it’s still persisting - with low energy/motivation in the background. These are my only symptoms, however I recognise them instantly.

I’m confused to say the least. Does having experienced WDs before mean I will forever get symptoms if I use an opiate? Feels super scuzzy and almost junkie like. Never able to touch codeine without RLS greeting me at the end.

Sigh. It will end I know. Just frustrating especially as I wasn’t trying to get fucked!

SR

Kindling with opioids (I use this term exclusively now as while opiates are distinct due to their natural origins, technically they are all opioids as the term describes the global nature of all of poppy drugs, regardless of whether they are semi or completely synthetic) is so much a thing I cannot overstress the fact.

While my behaviours have been more reckless and differently motivated than yours, the powerful kindling produced by heroin was one of the first things I noticed after cleaning up the first time.

Like most cases, it actually took me a fair amount of effort to develop my initial habit, with me using on a continuous daily and heavy basis for over 3 months before I woke up for the first time dopesick and knowing nothing mattered other than scoring more. My initial habit lasted for 2 years and even then I only got clean because, having finally run out of money and credit, I could not afford to continue. While it was a rough few days going full on CT the wd symptoms peaked around the 3rd day before finally subsiding over the next 42 hours and by the end of day 5 I was more or less over it, confirmed by the fact that I got a good 4 - 5 hours sleep that night after being constantly awake since the day after my last usage.

However, 6 months later I started to chip the odd w/e and when I finally got my hands on an 8th for the first time since getting 'clean', it took only 3 days of consecutive use before the discontinuation brought the w/d symptoms back again. This is why it is so easy to relapse because it only takes a short amount of time before the cycle of getting sick and seeking relief returns.

I hope that at least clarifies your question even if it does not help. Good luck x

 

[SilentRoller]

That’s such a great response stee, even if it does confirm what I feared!

I guess this means that whenever I am prescribed/use an opiate from now on, I can expect to be greeted by my old friends - RLS and shit sleep. Amazing.

Better off just steering clear of them completely. Which is what I was doing until I got my injury…ffs.

On the bright side, I have it on good authority that my symptoms are on the ‘extremely mild’ end of the scale (albeit annoying). I can’t imagine what a full on rattle would be like Jesus. At least I can still eat/drink and go about my day. Just in slight discomfort.

Fun times guys. Woo drugs.

 

[steewith2ees]

I quit methadone and dope and relapsed with prescription hydromorph , now back to dope. Just a month back on methadone gave me worse wd's then herion ever did. It was like i started from the beginning with no stomach issues . I have RLS but dope/methadone was keeping it at bay but it came back with a vengeance once i stopped.

Just try to get through it, there is medication for RLS. Best of luck to ya, it's definitely not easy

- please accept a belated welcome to Bluelight - although I have been a member since 2010 (this is my 2nd acct.) my activity of late has been part time at the very best and as such I have not come across any of your posts before today. I also apologise if you have been around the site longer than 3 months and have simply just started a new account but either way I am already waffling on unnecessarily. I understand 100% if you do not wish to answer my nosey / stalker like questions and I do not want to derail Silent Rollers thread. While of course all are and always have been welcome in this forum regardless of locale, I am sure that no one would dispute me saying that the majority of regular posters are from and / or live in Eire or the United Kingdom, being the European and African Drug Discussion and all. As such, I was wondering if you are or were in the UK when you started using hydromorphone as while it is occasionally prescribed here it is not anywhere near as common as it is in say, the US where 'Dilaudid' is very popular both as a therapeutic and recreational use (I am sick of saying misuse or abuse as while some things are less advisable than others, I hate the way that these terms reinforce the arbitrary ethical conclusions made about drug users in general).

 

[Jen X]

- please accept a belated welcome to Bluelight - although I have been a member since 2010 (this is my 2nd acct.) my activity of late has been part time at the very best and as such I have not come across any of your posts before today. I also apologise if you have been around the site longer than 3 months and have simply just started a new account but either way I am already waffling on unnecessarily. I understand 100% if you do not wish to answer my nosey / stalker like questions and I do not want to derail Silent Rollers thread. While of course all are and always have been welcome in this forum regardless of locale, I am sure that no one would dispute me saying that the majority of regular posters are from and / or live in Eire or the United Kingdom, being the European and African Drug Discussion and all. As such, I was wondering if you are or were in the UK when you started using hydromorphone as while it is occasionally prescribed here it is not anywhere near as common as it is in say, the US where 'Dilaudid' is very popular both as a therapeutic and recreational use (I am sick of saying misuse or abuse as while some things are less advisable than others, I hate the way that these terms reinforce the arbitrary ethical conclusions made about drug users in general).

I'm Canadian and thank you. I have MS so i get it scripted but here addicts can get hydromorph if methadone and suboxone don't work. I didn't realize the sub forum it was on.

 

[steewith2ees]

That’s such a great response stee, even if it does confirm what I feared!

I guess this means that whenever I am prescribed/use an opiate from now on, I can expect to be greeted by my old friends - RLS and shit sleep. Amazing.

Better off just steering clear of them completely. Which is what I was doing until I got my injury…ffs.

On the bright side, I have it on good authority that my symptoms are on the ‘extremely mild’ end of the scale (albeit annoying). I can’t imagine what a full on rattle would be like Jesus. At least I can still eat/drink and go about my day. Just in slight discomfort.

Fun times guys. Woo drugs.

I am sure you will be fine as in far too many cases, when folk put together the cessation of poppy use with physical discomfort, the first thing they do is re - dose as a quick fix as opposed to slowing things right down and assessing their situation. Time and time again, especially among older people, patients are Rx'd significant amounts of drugs like morphine and diacetylmorphine / heroin for long enough periods of time (for instance, during long hospital recoveries from surgery) that they technically experience the full WD syndrome when discharged or following the end of treatment. However - because the drug was not originally sought out by the patient for psychoactive purposes, these patients will not make the same psychological associations that people like me do so they will stop the medicine and spend the next few days 'under the weather' but will cope with it fine as in most cases they do not even realise they had a brief physical dependency to begin with.

Do not suffer needlessly from your injury but as long as you take the codeine as infrequently as possible (for instance, when your pain prevents sleep) you should be able to blow through what can be uncomfortable but relatively mild w/d symptoms when the time comes. If you have the stones to do practise martial arts in the first place you do not need support from a pretend man such as me.

 

[steewith2ees]

I'm Canadian and thank you. I have MS so i get it scripted but here addicts can get hydromorph if methadone and suboxone don't work. I didn't realize the sub forum it was on.

I do not know what to say when confronted by someone with real health challenges to get through as it just reinforces how trivial and pathetic my self imposed problems are but I appreciate the response and I hope you stick around - its always refreshing to have a perspective from our more progressive and enlightened members of the Commonwealth.

 

[Jen X]

I do not know what to say when confronted by someone with real health challenges to get through as it just reinforces how trivial and pathetic my self imposed problems are but I appreciate the response and I hope you stick around - its always refreshing to have a perspective from our more progressive and enlightened members of the Commonwealth.

I was an addict before i was diagnosed and yes Canada is far more progressive with addicts then our southern neighbors

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

For those of you on this board that remember, I had an awful experience with tramadol/DHC after a car accident a fair while ago, that put me into opiate WDs (albeit mild). However the mental aspect was horrid (depression wise) and it put me off trams for life. Big up FUBAR and others who were a supportive in this time - your words and advice were not forgotten. Ain’t touched them since.

So on to the present. A few weeks ago, I developed a muscle injury through intensive BJJ training (Brazilian Jujitsu - not blowjobs for those wondering!). Went to the dr as it got pretty bad. He handed me a box of 30mg codeine phosphate. With my tramadol horror still etched in my mind is was super cautious. Kept the dose low (no more than 120mg) in a day. Did this for a couple of weeks (2.5 actually).

Stopped taking them as that was that. Day 2 rolls around, and I notice my legs feel a bit odd. Yep, it’s my old friend RLS again. This coupled with crap sleep. My RLS is mild I might add and sort of comes in waves. Sometimes I’ll go hours and not feel it. Been about 6/7 days and it’s still persisting - with low energy/motivation in the background. These are my only symptoms, however I recognise them instantly.

I’m confused to say the least. Does having experienced WDs before mean I will forever get symptoms if I use an opiate? Feels super scuzzy and almost junkie like. Never able to touch codeine without RLS greeting me at the end.

Sigh. It will end I know. Just frustrating especially as I wasn’t trying to get fucked!

Although I think that the 'kindling effect' is definitely real, it relies upon the smouldering embers of addiction to reignite the kindling. Given enough, time those embers do eventually die and your resilience to readdiction will increase.

However, tolerance to the enjoyable effects of opiates seems to last much longer- if not for life. This means that trying to push through this barrier is going to fan those flames again.

Also, you said you'd been taking 120mg of codeine for 2.5 weeks. This isn't an insignificant amount. You're bound to feel some ill effects from that dose.

The problem with opiate withdrawal is that everytime you experience it, you become more sensitised to the symptoms - so what would once have been mild discomfort can quickly turn into agony. I believe that much of the so called kindling effect is simply down to this.

 

[Jabberwocky]

yeah i definitely got pretty much the same as stee and jenn said above. it took me ages to get a habit.

now if i take some solpadeine as stated on the packet for a hangover i will get very slight withdrawals and its def got worse as my drinking and therefore number of hangovers increased.

 

[headfuck123]

The kindling effect is real and serious with opiates and benzos. I used kratom off and on for about 6 years, each time the WD's got worse. In the past year I got over kratom but wasnt long before DHC was available to me in abundance and given my life struggles, genuine pain issues etc, it was next to impossible to resist. Months on, im now fully addicted to Bupe (not aquired via my GP either). I stocked up on those while I had the chance and now I have no access to get more so really need to take my self directed taper very seriously (which hasnt been happening).

The worst part for me is the lack of motivation, a sense of disphoria, apathy and feeling short fused and frayed around the edges for lack of a better term. Whatever would normally bring me joy and provide drive and inspiration no longer does, unless I have enough bupe in my system...

Leave opiates/opioids alone kids! (Even though one of my triggers to use is reading or seeing even the negative aspects of these drugs, ie - seeing a homless person nodding off, makes me a bit envious which I can understand, is fucked up!)

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

For those of you on this board that remember, I had an awful experience with tramadol/DHC after a car accident a fair while ago, that put me into opiate WDs (albeit mild). However the mental aspect was horrid (depression wise) and it put me off trams for life. Big up FUBAR and others who were a supportive in this time - your words and advice were not forgotten. Ain’t touched them since.

So on to the present. A few weeks ago, I developed a muscle injury through intensive BJJ training (Brazilian Jujitsu - not blowjobs for those wondering!). Went to the dr as it got pretty bad. He handed me a box of 30mg codeine phosphate. With my tramadol horror still etched in my mind is was super cautious. Kept the dose low (no more than 120mg) in a day. Did this for a couple of weeks (2.5 actually).

Stopped taking them as that was that. Day 2 rolls around, and I notice my legs feel a bit odd. Yep, it’s my old friend RLS again. This coupled with crap sleep. My RLS is mild I might add and sort of comes in waves. Sometimes I’ll go hours and not feel it. Been about 6/7 days and it’s still persisting - with low energy/motivation in the background. These are my only symptoms, however I recognise them instantly.

I’m confused to say the least. Does having experienced WDs before mean I will forever get symptoms if I use an opiate? Feels super scuzzy and almost junkie like. Never able to touch codeine without RLS greeting me at the end.

Sigh. It will end I know. Just frustrating especially as I wasn’t trying to get fucked!

Yes. I go through a fews days of DHC withdrawal every 4 weeks or so and it's definitely getting worse over time. My parents normally have ZERO sympathy, but last time it happened I was so ill my mum got scared and got me 50 x 30mg Codeine to get me through the next 36 hours.

 

[yubacity]

SR

Kindling with opioids (I use this term exclusively now as while opiates are distinct due to their natural origins, technically they are all opioids as the term describes the global nature of all of poppy drugs, regardless of whether they are semi or completely synthetic) is so much a thing I cannot overstress the fact.

While my behaviours have been more reckless and differently motivated than yours, the powerful kindling produced by heroin was one of the first things I noticed after cleaning up the first time.

Like most cases, it actually took me a fair amount of effort to develop my initial habit, with me using on a continuous daily and heavy basis for over 3 months before I woke up for the first time dopesick and knowing nothing mattered other than scoring more. My initial habit lasted for 2 years and even then I only got clean because, having finally run out of money and credit, I could not afford to continue. While it was a rough few days going full on CT the wd symptoms peaked around the 3rd day before finally subsiding over the next 42 hours and by the end of day 5 I was more or less over it, confirmed by the fact that I got a good 4 - 5 hours sleep that night after being constantly awake since the day after my last usage.

However, 6 months later I started to chip the odd w/e and when I finally got my hands on an 8th for the first time since getting 'clean', it took only 3 days of consecutive use before the discontinuation brought the w/d symptoms back again. This is why it is so easy to relapse because it only takes a short amount of time before the cycle of getting sick and seeking relief returns.

I hope that at least clarifies your question even if it does not help. Good luck x

Once your body gets dependant on opiates you can get clean and use for 2 days hard you will have mild wd

 

[Jackal]

At the risk of being a scratched record; don't use pain pills, smoke weed

 

[axe battler]

Top advice mate, wish I'd done that.
As stated by most the kindling effect is very real with opiates. It's way easier to physically dependent if you have been before.
One thing with opiates is that when you relapse, the first and second dose can feel as strong as the first time you took it. So please don't read this and think brill I'm gonna relapse and shoot 2 bags like used to.
A lot of OD's happen this way. When someone has taken a break relapses.

 

[axe battler]

The kindling effect with benzos is a twat. I can stay off months and take 50-60 mg diazepam and get a 20 minute dunt and that's it. Not even a good sleep

 

[LoginNotSecure]

The kindling effect with benzos is a twat. I can stay off months and take 50-60 mg diazepam and get a 20 minute dunt and that's it. Not even a good sleep

I can take a whole months worth of benzodiazepines and feel zero apart from a night of restless sleep.

I can take 10mg of diazepam and feel my hangover melt away though. Less is more?

 

[axe battler]

I could try. My instinct is to just bosh 5-10 depending on how many I've been using. Then was doing amazing taking 2mg clongz and 2 of alpraz a day so I had to stop. Had to fucking cold turkey too as I wanted them outta my piss asap for other reasons.

 

[SilentRoller]

Day 10. Still have slight RLS with somewhat light/shit sleep.

Must be ending around now surely. Man opiate WD is shit, even super light WD. I can understand why someone with a heavy habit would continue using rather than going through WDs, it just draaags.

You reckon I have any chance of experiencing PAWS? The shit sleep is the most annoying. Makes me want to use benzos, but that’s just swapping one monkey for another.