TDS Is killing yourself really the answer to all suffering?

[jasperkent]

If Life is equivalent to waiting at the airport for your flight home, I guess suicide is hijacking a plane and saying "Take me wherever. Surprise me."

 

[Hexenstahl]

I think it depends a lot on the individual's philosophical and metaphysical worldview.

 

[nznity]

I think it depends a lot on the individual's philosophical and metaphysical worldview.

I have mixed feelings tbh, I believe in Buddhism/Hinduism that u come back until u learn the lesson and also have read nietzche, Schopenhauer and other philosophers that make me believe life has no meaning therefore if I kill myself nothing would happen. But tbh just to have all of you answering my question makes me feel the warmth of u guys caring for me. Just that thought makes me think twice about ending this tragic comedy my life has become. mua

 

[stardust10]

Consider reading and writing. You are exactly right.. almost everyone is forgotten before they even die. So it comes down to a selfish meaning.. what’s important to you. It is the only valid importance.. Piss on the rest of it.. what do you want to do with your life.. it’s all that matters as it’s YOUR life.

I can read and write academically in fact I was praised for it at uni. Justbstarted reading books again after the good part of anyear. But not my thoughts/socialising etc for instance telling a story. I don't think. I get words muddled up and my thoughts are a mess. I'm in constant fight or flight also which doesn't help but I've always been a bit like this just not as bad.
I know what's important to me but it's a terribly lonely existence it feels like and do my best to honour what's important to me in the hopes that things might get better giving enough chance for me to maybe get better. Some days are better than others but overall it gets tough. I'm working towards what I want in life. I don't want to be this self centred either. I think the depression was warping my ability to think clearly the other day. But it's scary because the temptation still exists there and I really don't want to hurt anyone. Sometimes it just feels too difficult or I can't feel much at all while wanting to connect with people and feel and appreciate things and each other on the level others can and do. Reggae music meditation and weed helps me feel appreciative of nature etc and that I have a sort of friend or something it's spiritual. Just my head's fucked but maybe there's hope beyond what I can manage atm. I also struggle with being a bit of an arsehole. Thanks for ur thoughtful reply
And I hate to say it but knowing that am not alone and that I'm not the only one
Ad I do appreciate things I really appreciate people like on here etc but Its when things are dark and ur tired it's not easy eh folks
@nznity hope u get some good news

 

[Hexenstahl]

I have mixed feelings tbh, I believe in Buddhism/Hinduism that u come back until u learn the lesson and also have read nietzche, Schopenhauer and other philosophers that make me believe life has no meaning therefore if I kill myself nothing would happen. But tbh just to have all of you answering my question makes me feel the warmth of u guys caring for me. Just that thought makes me think twice about ending this tragic comedy my life has become. mua

I find Buddhism to be a very dangerous philosophy, because similar to christianity, it is an anti-cosmic religion that associates life with suffering and the world to be something that must be escaped. YOU are here for a reason and that is NOT to learn some lesson and then piss off from this "lowly" realm of "agony" into some ethereal pleroma. The truth is that YOU are here to participate in the world and enjoy it. Think of life as a participatory game, or a sandbox, rather than a place full of limitations and suffering. Simply reframe your perception of life and soon life itself will change. Ideas like Buddhism, Gnosticism, Nihilism, etc. won't help you in preventing suicidal thoughts, because they alienate you from the world around you. Gaslighting people into believing that the world is an illusion is an excellent tool to make them give up on life, isolate themselves from what is happening around them and leave the playing field to power hungry tyrants who want the least amount of resistance from the population.

If you want a philosophy then I suggest you look into pantheism, more specifically material pantheism (the notion that god(s) and all things spiritual are not transcendent or seperate from the world but actually immanent in it).

EDIT: just to prevent misunderstandings, I did not shit on Buddhism as a whole. It has some valuable teachings to live by, but this whole life=suffering idea is very unhealthy and detrimental to a fulfilled life in my opinion. And before some triggered buddhist says that I have no idea of what I'm talking about: I have read the Pali Canon from start to finish and Buddha's teachings basically boil down to that equation...

 

[Jabberwocky]

not to the people who care about you, for them, it is a whole load of suffering, probably self blame, its horrible.

i have a friend who had 2 close family members kill themselves (they are palestinian so i can kinda see why even with having never met them, but that's beside the point), its fucked her up. its taken years to even try and get to a place without blame and move to acceptance and it still impacts everything she does in life, you can see it colouring the way she views everything. she's doing what she can to recover and i respect that hugely cos many people would wallow in self pity, but she still has so far to go.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I find Buddhism to be a very dangerous philosophy, because similar to christianity, it is an anti-cosmic religion that associates life with suffering and the world to be something that must be escaped.

'suffering' is a poor translation of the term dukkha. unsatisfactoriness is more accurate. its not about escaping either, it is about identifying the cause of suffering, accepting it, then cultivating awareness (the complete opposite of alienation from the world around you), practising compassion, and thus reducing your own suffering and that of the other living beings around you.

i have studied buddhism for years in groups with dharma practitioners and currently in the process of becoming a triratna mitra. i think you have misinterpreted what you've read or found extremely bad translations, many include copious notes on translation to avoid exactly the type of error you have made.

eta, off topic but i'm interested. have you honestly read all 12,000 pages of the pali canon? i quite like the idea but find it intimidating. what would you say is the best volume to get me started? i have and consult the dhammapada frequently, but which of the discourses? how did you find the other shorter volumes? obviously its referenced frequently in my study materials but they never specify where in the pali canon the bits they are referencing come from.

 

[nznity]

I find Buddhism to be a very dangerous philosophy, because similar to christianity, it is an anti-cosmic religion that associates life with suffering and the world to be something that must be escaped. YOU are here for a reason and that is NOT to learn some lesson and then piss off from this "lowly" realm of "agony" into some ethereal pleroma. The truth is that YOU are here to participate in the world and enjoy it. Think of life as a participatory game, or a sandbox, rather than a place full of limitations and suffering. Simply reframe your perception of life and soon life itself will change. Ideas like Buddhism, Gnosticism, Nihilism, etc. won't help you in preventing suicidal thoughts, because they alienate you from the world around you. Gaslighting people into believing that the world is an illusion is an excellent tool to make them give up on life, isolate themselves from what is happening around them and leave the playing field to power hungry tyrants who want the least amount of resistance from the population.

If you want a philosophy then I suggest you look into pantheism, more specifically material pantheism (the notion that god(s) and all things spiritual are not transcendent or seperate from the world but actually immanent in it).

EDIT: just to prevent misunderstandings, I did not shit on Buddhism as a whole. It has some valuable teachings to live by, but this whole life=suffering idea is very unhealthy and detrimental to a fulfilled life in my opinion. And before some triggered buddhist says that I have no idea of what I'm talking about: I have read the Pali Canon from start to finish and Buddha's teachings basically boil down to that equation...

I'm not enjoying life at all. Every year It just gets worse, the chronic pain I have is getting unberable. There's not a single day I don't wake up in agony, I'm getting sick of it.

 

[nznity]

Yet....I keep going. Idk y but u do.

 

[Bare_head]

Hey mate. Interesting but also personally a worrying thread. I hope your feeling slightly more positive right now.

I totally know where your coming from.

Since speaking to my councellor ive been having even more dark/dystopian thoughts about this very subject.

Life is something we get for a very short time. Thats the inbetween part.

Nothingness is what takes up most of our existance (sounds grim but is the reality)

We were nothing before and we will be nothing after death.

You know taking a nice breath of fresh air? Or when you taste your favourite food of a morning? Those are the things you should try cherish. Remember we could die any minute now. Nothingness is going to be around forever. Yes we wont know it but we wont get to feel that lovely sun on our bodies, that refreshing lemon juice on a hot day, that feeling when you help someone out. Those chemical reactions are what makes life worth living.

Im sorry for going a bit overboard. You seem a really nice guy. If you ever wanna talk pm me and we can chat some more. Stay safe mate

 

[Bare_head]

Also what pain do you have? Im also in alot of pain right now and it does make life unbearable at times. I know things can seem bleak and they do for me right now aswell. Pm me if you want to talk more m8. Hate to see someone else in this feeling cause i know exactly how it feels and its hell !

 

[Hexenstahl]

'suffering' is a poor translation of the term dukkha. unsatisfactoriness is more accurate. its not about escaping either, it is about identifying the cause of suffering, accepting it, then cultivating awareness (the complete opposite of alienation from the world around you), practising compassion, and thus reducing your own suffering and that of the other living beings around you.

First of all, that's just hairsplitting and secondly there is no singular meaning of the term dukkha. That word is translated as suffering, pain, dissatisfaction, stress and a whole lot of other things. What matters is context and in the buddhist context this word means suffering. Unsatisfactoriness leads to suffering because if you believe that life is unsatisfactory per se, then you WILL suffer eventually as life will become unbearable and you look for an escape. You start to think to yourself "I gotta move beyond all that. I need to transcend all these petty wordly things". But actually, your soul is here because it had a genuine desire to experience the world and what it has to offer, not because it's somehow trapped. That type of thinking will inevitably make you vilify the world. Look how children perceive the world. They have a much purer perception than us adults who have a whole host of conditioned responses programmed in us. Children are curious about life, they like to explore and experience life and what it has to offer and do so in a cheerful manner. If the world was a place of suffering, then the natural and instinctual response of children would not be to do all these things, but to shield themselves.

I think the only reason life feels unsatisfactory to some people is because they either have an unsatisfactory outlook on life and thus pursue the wrong things and along the way become disappointed, or they simply have been psychologically conditioned to believe that axiom to be objectively true (don't underestimate the power of conditioning).
The problem is that Buddhism doesn't work if you believe that life is not suffering. This religion only works by reframing your mind into believing the presupposition of life = suffering. But what if I view life and the world around me as an opportunity to pursue desires and make interesting experiences along the way? What if I enjoy this whole process of transientness? What if I think in the neoplatonic sense of me being part of "the many" who has seperated itself from "the one" to experience the creation of the latter instance?
Well, Buddhism doesn't give an answer to that. Actually they DO give an answer, but that answer boils down to "you have cultivated wrong view and are therefore delusional". See what I mean? This whole religion works by gaslighting its members to not trust themselves and their perceptions and adopt totally unnatural belief systems that seperate them from the world around them. Buddhism basically states that anyone who doesn't adopt the "right" view must therefore have the "wrong" view. In other words "anyone who doesn't think like us is delusional". The fact that Buddhism has to perform such mental gymnastics to convince you of such things is proof enough for me that something ain't right with it. I have learned through experience that often the truth is self-evident and simple. The real delusion is very often the mind perceiving something that isn't really there and is projected through a mental web of complexity. It's a bit like stock traders who think they see some pattern in the chart when actually there is none.

have you honestly read all 12,000 pages of the pali canon?

Sorry I explained it badly. What I actually meant was that I read a number of anthologies of the pali canon, NOT the pali canon itself. I probably forgot to mention that as I was in a hurry when I wrote it.

P.S.: my comment should not be perceived as the classic childish argument of "your religion is wrong". All I wanted to say here is that this religion is simply not for me. If Buddhism helps you to deal with whatever you are facing in life, then that is fine. Wish you all the best...

 

[Jabberwocky]

First of all, that's just hairsplitting and secondly there is no singular meaning of the term dukkha.

so stop equating it to 'suffering' then. i said 'more accurate' and did not claim a definition.

if you have something you're attached to, you want to keep it, that is latent unsatisfactoriness (i.e. the possibility of losing it); if you don't have something, but you want it, that is unsatisfactory (because you don't have the thing). i personally don't call having something i really want 'suffering' but i can completely get behind the notion that losing that thing is not satisfactory. buddhism points to our inherent attachment to things, people, emotions, whatever, as the cause of suffering and offers tools to release yourself from such attachment in a way that is not nihilistic, but instead cultivates joyful and positive action.

i really don't know where you get your opinons about buddhism from but they are not a fair reading of the teachings. it is not dogmatic. there isn't 'wrongthink' in the way you portray. it does not say people are delusional. the dharma says nothing of people who do not follow it- though sometimes examples are used in teachings there is no generalisation about what people who don't follow the dharma do. buddhism is just a set of teachings with practical psychological ideas that proponents believe leads to a happier life, i have found that to be the case for me, you seem to have found a different route to happiness. no bother. enjoying the fact that everything is transient is great, seeing things the way things are is the first step on the eightfold path, with acceptance being step two, it sounds like you may be more in tune with buddhist beliefs than you think.

" by gaslighting its members to not trust themselves and their perceptions" - so what is the point of meditation then? mindfulness? do you not see that your own conception is inconsistent with the key tenets of buddhist teaching and practise? the entire point of practise is to become more aware of your perceptions, and that awareness is predicated on trusting them.

i don't care about people making reasoned arguments against my religious beliefs but i do get irked about people using completely naive misrepresentations to bash them. especially in such a sensitive thread as one about suicide.

which anthologies did you read? i would like to discuss them with my study group because they contrast significantly with the teachings we study.

 

[Hexenstahl]

@chinup

This will be my last reply concerning this topic, as I am not here on this forum to argue about religion with people I don't even know. I have better and more productive things to do with my time than arguing over such highly personal matters. Btw, your behaviour is very typical of religious people in general. As soon as something about the religion is criticized from an outsider, the actual content of the statement (regardless of whether it's true or not) is rejected by typical knee-jerk reactions like "oh but that is not the actual meaning of the scripture", or "you have misunderstood his sayings" or "that is a misrepresentation and actually means [insert whatever argument invalidates the critic's ojection]" and my personal favorite "you just don't understand it". Yeah where have I heard that already? Christianity, Islam, Judaism and just about any other religion argues in the same way to critics. My experience has been that buddhists aren't that different in this regard than other religions.

so stop equating it to 'suffering' then. i said 'more accurate' and did not claim a definition.

You're the definition of a fusspot. I don't need to equate it with suffering, because in the context of Buddhism dukkha essentially MEANS suffering. Even great authorities on Buddhism like Bikkhu Bodhi or the Dalai Lama use the term in such a context, so go and take your complaint to those who have framed the word in this way.

if you have something you're attached to, you want to keep it, that is latent unsatisfactoriness

First of all, unsatisfaction only comes when a certain condition is met. Your attempt to frame the emotional state of unsatisfaction to be something that exists perpetually, by sneakily inserting "latent" does not actually make that statement true. Secondly, what you have described is part and parcel of life. Literally everything you do, have and are is borrowed to begin with and by no later than physical death, you WILL lose all of it. Everybody knows that subconsciously, but that doesn't make them unsatisfied with whatever they have right now because people simply don't perceive it that way unless they have been actively conditioned to think that way by someone/something. Yeah sure, person XYZ might lose his home in a fire, perhaps, eventually, maybe, some day in the future, but that does not make owning the house unsatisfactory just because there is a vague possibility of something bad happening to the house. A buddhist according to his axiomatic belief system might think that way, but the human mind itself does not perceive the world in this way (see my argument about children in my previous comment). I went through a lot of shit in my life and lost a lot (both objects of sentimental and monetary value, as well as loved ones) but if I had the option to come back again and again to live more lives, make different decisions and have different experiences, I'd never refuse. This alone proves to me that life being dukkha is not a self-evident truth as buddhists like to portray, but is entirely dependent on belief and the mental models we live by.

buddhism points to our inherent attachment to things, people, emotions, whatever, as the cause of suffering

See, that is exactly what I mean. You guys talk about such things as if they are objectively true, when it is actually completely dependent on ones subjective perception of the experiences that one makes in life. Perhaps you can understand me better when I rephrase this in a different way: You think attachment is the cause of suffering? I think attachment is what makes the world spin (not to be taken literally ofc). Attachment to his music is what makes the musician produce great music because he is so passionate about it. His internal world is so deeply entrenched into his music, which leads him to create music that evokes profound feelings in his listerners. If he wasn't attached to it, he probably wouldn't have pursued this career to begin with. Attachment and passion is a bit like the yin and yang for me. The former is the breeding ground and the latter is the seed out of which a beautiful, lush tree can grow. It is being continuously fueled by the fire of passion and provided with the stable, nurturing ground of attachment. I used this example here to show you how differently we can perceive things and what is a nightmare for some, is a dream for others. Attachment isn't a bad thing for me. Buddhism seems to be for those who have a negative view/frame towards attachment, but that entirely misses the point that the frame itself is an unhealthy and unnatural one to begin with, and should therefore be dismissed as it creates a deprecating and ascetic attitude towards the world instead of a participatory, embracing one. Joyful and positive action doesn't mean shit if you view life as one big, samsaric cycle of eternal suffering.

i really don't know where you get your opinons about buddhism from but they are not a fair reading of the teachings. it is not dogmatic.

I heard this exact statement a million times already from all kinds of religions, so don't expect me to adress this.

there isn't 'wrongthink' in the way you portray. it does not say people are delusional.

It is a misconception to think that you have to explicitly state something to mean it. It is a matter of logical inference. If Buddhism teaches that the buddhist path cuts away delusions, then that means that everybody who does not walk the buddhist path is by default delusional. If Buddhism frees you of delusions (whatever these delusions might be), but at the same time non-buddhists can also be without delusion (otherwise they would be all delusional, right?), then what's the whole point of Buddhism?

it sounds like you may be more in tune with buddhist beliefs than you think.

No you got this the wrong way - completely. I advocate embracing the world and what it has to offer. Participating in it and having an active role in shaping it, because my philosophical basis is rooted in our souls' FREE choice to incarnate into this world instead of the bleak buddhist notion of being trapped here and being enslaved by our desires and passions. My entire philosophical and metaphysical basis is the antithesis of Buddhism lol. Read my reply here: https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/what’s-up-with-my-tolerance-am-i-the-only-one.917019/page-2#post-15452874
I have concluded there that the attachment that we call addiction is not itself the problem, it's our attitude towards it.

so what is the point of meditation then?

That depends on who you ask lol. The Vamachara will say "to attain spiritual powers", the bhakta will say "to attain union with god", the western esoteric alchemist will say "to turn lead into gold (allegory ofc)", and so on and so forth.
It's ludicrous to think that meditation has a singular purpose. It's actually a rather modern misconception that did not exist historically. People throughout history have practiced meditation for all sorts of reasons (Jan Fries has written a good chapter about this in his book "Kali Kaula") in various ways and forms.

especially in such a sensitive thread as one about suicide.

What does this have to do with anything? I can't state why I dislike Buddhism in a thread about suicide??? If anything my words are life- and world-affirming and therefore discourage suicide and suicidal ideation in any shape or form. You have either completely misunderstood me all along, or this is an extremely cheap attempt to shut down any critical discussion. Whatever it is, I have said everything and do not want to engage anymore in this rather unfruitful discussion that obviously does not lead anywhere.
~~Beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam~~


EDIT: the book was "In the buddha's words" by Bhikkhu Bodhi. There were also a number of other books I have read by others (some notable tibetan dream yogi) but I can't remember their names.

 

[nznity]

Also what pain do you have? Im also in alot of pain right now and it does make life unbearable at times. I know things can seem bleak and they do for me right now aswell. Pm me if you want to talk more m8. Hate to see someone else in this feeling cause i know exactly how it feels and its hell !

I've been stuck in a bed for 2 years now, can barely use 1 arm which is broken, my other arm is contracted( fking doesn't work at all) my hip is dislocated on both sides and my bone keeps applying pressure on my lower back I keep getting sores every few days. It's a non stopping pain in my hip, my arm hurts too and my legs practically don't work. I'm too weak I can't even sit. FUCK, I CANT even masturbate or do the most basic things by myself. All I do everyday is eat loads of morphine and benzos to try to mask the pain and to entertain myself I chain smoke Marlboro reds like crazy. I'm 27(almost 28) but life has really come down to being a fucking ameba. I'm sick of all this and I'm starting to think nothingness will set me free from all this shit.
/fml

 

[washingtonbound]

You stay here for your loved ones. The physical plane is a dump. So we help our individual selves and others by that Love.
One can say well if someone is so miserable it would be selfish to not let them kill themselves. And there seems to be truth in that. But it is an act of Love to stay and help others. In fact it is the only way out of here. Through it, through grace. Through doing the time with grace. And then never have to do it again is my belief. Like a school.

There was an NDE where some kid (who admitted he was difficult and not nice to people) killed himself and ended up in a place where he realized that does not work there. lol He could not kill himself again. So he was counseled by higher beings and sent him back. (nderf.org)

Look at the Earth. It is brutal Dog eat dog, animal eat animal, bloodshed at birth, disease, and misery. I mean look at religion. A peacemaker like Jesus had to be nailed to a cross here on Earth? Unbelievable how cruel we are. I was watching an episode of Vikings and they made fun of cripples and treated them bad. Brutal.

But you stay here with us nzity, we all go through it together and will come out the other side and never have to do it again. You come here and post what you did and sit back for answers. There is something deep down in me that knows that is true. And the only thing that gets anyone through a day is Faith in something. Some have faith in money. But to have faith you are on the right path and will go to the grave without too many muddy steps to clean up is the best Faith. Faith is in layers too. Trust me, when you get up in the morning your psyche already has faith the floor won't give out. Faith stacks up. HAve the big Faith.

And this life is temporary.

There are people here taking care of loved ones in a big sense. People stepping up. They are the heroes in that life does suck yet they do the good works knowing the worth of their days measures MORE than planting and growing. (Let it Grow)

So basically you stick it out so you don't have to do it again. And I know you can feel that. Life does suck, but I do believe it is our own chosen journey. Every step of the way we make choices. Those choices are the way out. And it does not matter what drugs we use to make it through unless they start making things too difficult. Do what you have to do. One day at a time. I have gotten so depressed I start crossing days off a calendar and say I never have to do it again. That is no way to live so I totally get it.

We ALL deserve more bones thrown to us and more miracles. Everyone alive is totally going through the trials that this world brings.

Good post, but a disturbing theory is the "reincarnation soul trap" if you've heard of it.

 

[washingtonbound]

I have SEVERE mood swings, and there are times I wonder why I bother going through this fucking life. So much annoyance, pain, anger, sadness...WHY DO I BOTHER??!! It's really tempting to just end it. But I don't because I've been saved by SOMETHING so many times in my life...from overdoses, health issues, shit like that. I should be dead many times over... I'm curious as to why I've been saved so often, so I'll hang around for a while.

My mood seems to oscilate by the second, definitely know what you mean about having those bad swings and feeling like there's no point.

 

[Snake_Eyes]

I hate life post covid and I'm ready for my life to be over. Every year/month just keeps getting worse and worse under Biden and the democrat party. The only reason I haven't is because my mom is still alive. However if and when I lose my apartment and/or lose the ability to live alone then I will do it without hesitation.
Besides she has two other kids and 5 grandchildren, she'll get over it. It's not like my family talks to me anyways.

 

[nznity]

I hate life post covid and I'm ready for my life to be over. Every year/month just keeps getting worse and worse under Biden and the democrat party. The only reason I haven't is because my mom is still alive. However if and when I lose my apartment and/or lose the ability to live alone then I will do it without hesitation.
Besides she has two other kids and 5 grandchildren, she'll get over it. It's not like my family talks to me anyways.

I'm on a similar spot although I got too many ppl supportimg Me, I can't let them down. So killing myself is not winning thr battle as of now.

 

[jasperkent]

I do not fear death. I do fear HOW I die. I like the idea that I have some control over that.

But the bottom line is that killing myself would upset several people, including my dog.*



* Forgive me for implying that dogs are people. Certainly not! Saying that would be insulting to dogs.