Meds Is it a good idea to use suboxone to get off an uncontrollable kratom addiction?

[SuperPsych]

Beyond a healthy diet, aerobic exercise is by far the #1 thing to recover from PAWS. It repairs your receptors and rewires your brain's reward circuits (which is the main cause of PAWS). It also gives you natural endogenous endorphins to boot.

Obviously it does take the actual effort of doing exercise, but it's well worth if.

Strength training also helps, but not as much as aerobic.

I've finally started exercising and it's been helping me make bigger jumps in my suboxone dosage a lot quicker.

I am on Suboxone for kratom addiction. I mean, I've been on opioids most of my adult life. Started with morphine, then kratom, then heroin, then kratom again. At my worst I was using about 60g of Kratom a day. Similar to others who have posted, kratom.withdrawal has the physical discomfort of other opioids, but the hardest part is the mental aspect. It makes me so depressed and so anhedonic that the withdrawal just seems horrible and like it'll never end; and at my worst with kratom I'm in a constant state of mild withdrawal. It's like I can never get enough. It just doesn't last long enough. I do sort of regret getting on suboxone for it. It's been a long journey and suboxone is not without its troubles. I've now been on Subs for almost 2 years. I got up to 16mg/day and am now down to 4mg a day. I'm hoping to be off of it completely by this time next year. Overall, I find suboxone a lot easier to taper than kratom. Kratom I was absolutely unable to taper without severe discomfort.

 

[kjs487]

Suboxone was hell to stop. 3 months after I quit I was still so sick that I would have the green apple splatters in front of the woman watching my UA. It was humiliation on top of the indignity of a person peering up your stuff.
I also was unable to feel any joy for at least two years. I still have very blunted feelings.
If you don't need Suboxone don't start it. Its much easier quitting heroin cold turkey than the Subs

 

[dopefisher]

I took kratom all day everyday for 11 years straight in HUGE quantities. Then, I quit the kratom and took Suboxone for 2 years to keep me off the kratom. Then, I quit the Suboxone and had zero withdrawal from it and now take kratom everyday again, albeit in MUCH smaller quantities.
YMMV.

 

[Phobophobic]

Neither. Well the latter I guess. Hypothetically if YOU have enough will power it should work, but most likely a bit too well.

With physical addiction, mind over matter doesnt work, but I admit I am a pessimistic, dark souled mercenary...but experienced.

 

[Xanniemcfanwie]

I don’t know if my two cents are worth sharing but here in the uk I could only get Kratom due to job restrictions.
When I quite that job I was on 30-40g K a day it’s super expensive to get imported to uk and I hated it. It made me ill. I went to specialty addiction center and they tried to give me 6mg Subutex. I told them it was too much and took 4mg I wanted to rapid taper but here they make you come in to the shop and take it in front of them for 3 weeks straight. So I couldn’t take less .
So no it’s been a year I’m currently on 3.6mg a day and sometimes 3.2mg.

Life is so much better for me mentally. No more dosing or planning my whole social life around dosing every four hours. Usually 4-5 times a day .

Now it’s just a tan under my tongue and I’m done

I did codeine dyhighdrocodiene but nothing stronger apart form a bit of morphine.

I kinda wish I could go to a shorter half life and try a taper again but my plan is to take less subs until I’m down to 1mg or less a day . They do .4mg and .2mg tabs here which is good. And when you get to the end they give you a week of benzodiazepines to help you sleep. Maybe zopiclone I don’t know yet.

All I know is Kratom ruined me and my life. I feel free on subs. Only thing I’ve lost is a bit of my passion for song writing and a bit of libido. But I still class myself as a sex machine and my partner hasn’t noticed ha ha.

I would recommend switching from K to subs but yes there are some horror stories but psychologically it depends where you mind is at and what your end goal is. I love the safety of subs and knowing I’m getting a consistent amount each day. It’s allowed me to level out and focus on life.

I think about it daily. However I made new hobbies and found calm and collective thoughts in my day. I sleep 8 hours a night and wake refrsshed

I’ve added a lot of supplements which intake a night including mushroom supplements ( lions mane and cordyceps etc) valerian, b vits, vit D, magnesium threonate. They help me switch off. I sleep well and that makes life a lot better than waking up before at 7am as I need my k juice.

I have currently come in to 50 odd 10mg diazepams which I may use to help reduce my subs quicker but I’m not about to f**k with benzos I have read far too much about them ha ha
But if you ever make the leapt from K to subs feel free to messag me. It’s been exactly and year and whilst I miss getting high I do like feeling ‘ normal’

Oh and just to add. I was concerned about why I do all this in the first place and ended up getting referred to a psych for ADHD. I have about six months to wait for that referral but it may be I’m a dopamine chasing attention deficit hyperactive nightmare who takes endless opiates to turn my horrible fast paced confusion life into a sweet bubble of cushty feelings.

Peace all

By the at I was on Kratom from 2013-2022 I did quit a few times and use ohenibut to cheer me up and then got addicted to that so came off slowly and moved back to K. For about 6 months in 2018 I was t total! Literally nothing even alcohol and cigarettes. I was healthy as hell I’ve no idea why I’m currently a semi alchie smoker on subs but there you go

 

[4meSM]

I've been taking kratom for many years as well but have occasionally switched to buprenorphine and then back to kratom. The most sub I've ever taken was around 2mg (intranasally) and I only took that much because I had a pretty long heroin binge and kratom didn't cover my WD. Otherwise I've been able to switch from <2mg of sub to kratom effortlessly.

If I could get a prescription for subs I'd switch to it full time and try to stabilize on 1mg at the most. I've never been able to taper with kratom due to its short duration. But I must admit I'd be a bit scared of sub WD which can last weeks. If I wanted to quit opioids for good I'd probably use subs and taper to ~0.25mg of less and then switch to low dose of kratom before jumping off.

 

[Painful One]

I know that kratom isn't that physically addictive, but in my case I am so psychologically and mentally addicted to it that I cannot taper it. I've tried many times, it just doesn't work, I crave the drug and the buzz too much. If I quit I get extreme depression, anhedonia, anxiety and end up relapsing as a result. I actually prefer certain high quality red strains of kratom to any opiates that I have tried before, except for heroin. Would it be a good idea to use suboxone to counter the cravings for it so that I can quit the kratom? I'm thinking that suboxone might also take care of most of the mental withdrawal symptoms like the depression and anhedonia. And then just slowly taper the suboxone over time.

I think it is a horrible idea.
I got forced to suboxone from MS Contin (morphine) after my doctors of sixteen years retired.
He just left me a letter of recommendation and said I needed the treatment I was on.
But no doctor would even give me an appointment.

I am having horrible side effects from the suboxone.

I am wondering if someone can help me.
I need to know how to get off the suboxone? It is killing me. I have lost 10 pounds in a couple weeks.
Maybe High quality Red Strain Kratom could be useful to me?
Maybe you could advise on if that is a good idea?

Thank you to anyone that responds.

 

[Painful One]

Just read this entire thread.
I am SO grateful for all of your experience and for being willing to share it with others.
Thank you guys.

I am going to force myself to do some stretching and exercises.
I am going to try and cut back slowly on the suboxone.
I already have changed my diet to be a healthy diet.
I am going to just bite the bullet and keep trying.
I am so weak from not being able to eat, sleep, do anything since being changed to suboxone in November.
I have been deathly ill since November.

I appreciate all the priceless advise in this thread.
Much love to you all.

 

[xxsicknessxx]

Suboxone doesn't make sense to me.

Just get the drugs out of your area of life, don't buy more, except that you'll run out, except that you will feel miserable before you feel better and except that it can take months if not years to return to normal but believe me that you will feel better and you can't even understand what better is anymore is your a drug addict...

I find that using one drug to quit another does work. I won't say it won't work >snip< Suboxone is a drug you may never quit and it's not fun to take so it's a bad way to quit drugs.

I'm not a doctor.

I've taken subs in pill form then they went to strips and that is when I stopped enjoying taking my Suboxone which might been the point to change to strips. But it's lame.

Also in my experience is easier to feel miserable for a month or then feeling bad for a year taking Suboxone then weening off it for six months. It's just a money making tool.

>snip<

But I've been sober 3 years now.

>snip<

Yes that sounds right.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

Just get the drugs out of your area of life, don't buy more, except that you'll run out, except that you will feel miserable before you feel better and except that it can take months if not years to return to normal but believe me that you will feel better and you can't even understand what better is anymore is your a drug addict...

I find that using one drug to quit another does work. I won't say it won't work >snip< Suboxone is a drug you may never quit and it's not fun to take so it's a bad way to quit drugs.

I'm not a doctor.

I've taken subs in pill form then they went to strips and that is when I stopped enjoying taking my Suboxone which might been the point to change to strips. But it's lame.

Also in my experience is easier to feel miserable for a month or then feeling bad for a year taking Suboxone then weening off it for six months. It's just a money making tool.

>snip<

But I've been sober 3 years now.

>snip<

Yes that sounds right.

Sorry, man. Recommending someone trade their addiction to the drug you mentioned is not good advice and runs counter to Harm Reduction. It may have worked for you but like you said, it is easy to get addicted to.

Post edited for content.

 

[Painful One]

Still sick as a dog here.
I am really depressed too.
Suboxone is just not cutting it for me.

I don’t know what to do.
It has so many bad side effects.
I am really at the end of my rope here guys.

I could really use some kind words.
I have no support system at all from family.

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am stuck at home and I can’t find anything to replace my “addiction”.
If that is what it even is.
I have gotten off everything and I was still way sick even after a year.
How long does it take?
I didn’t sleep at all for an entire year.
I couldn’t take it anymore.

I have some kind of progressive disease that comes with a lot of pain and problems.
A lot of these problems were under control when I was able to be prescribed morphine.
Anytime I mention that though, people think I am defending it.
I am just saying what helped me the most. (After trying thousands of other things, many with horrific effects)
I have to be able to eat and sleep.
I have lost so much weight, cannot keep hardly anything down and yeah, I am depressed.
The major migraine headaches with vision loss are back in full force.
I am completely crippled again.

I am going to go get an up to date MRI and see if they can actually diagnose this now.
Maybe if they can diagnose it properly, I could get the correct help?
It seems like it has something to do with dopamine.
Like, my brain doesn’t make it.
I think that is why morphine helped so much more than pain for me.
It is dopamine.
The medical system is just gone.....
SOS
Help.
P.O.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

Still sick as a dog here.
I am really depressed too.
Suboxone is just not cutting it for me.

I don’t know what to do.
It has so many bad side effects.
I am really at the end of my rope here guys.

I could really use some kind words.
I have no support system at all from family.

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am stuck at home and I can’t find anything to replace my “addiction”.
If that is what it even is.
I have gotten off everything and I was still way sick even after a year.
How long does it take?
I didn’t sleep at all for an entire year.
I couldn’t take it anymore.

I have some kind of progressive disease that comes with a lot of pain and problems.
A lot of these problems were under control when I was able to be prescribed morphine.
Anytime I mention that though, people think I am defending it.
I am just saying what helped me the most. (After trying thousands of other things, many with horrific effects)
I have to be able to eat and sleep.
I have lost so much weight, cannot keep hardly anything down and yeah, I am depressed.
The major migraine headaches with vision loss are back in full force.
I am completely crippled again.

I am going to go get an up to date MRI and see if they can actually diagnose this now.
Maybe if they can diagnose it properly, I could get the correct help?
It seems like it has something to do with dopamine.
Like, my brain doesn’t make it.
I think that is why morphine helped so much more than pain for me.
It is dopamine.
The medical system is just gone.....
SOS
Help.
P.O.

I am so sorry this is still going on PO. Yes, please get an updated MRI. Don't stop persisting

 

[Painful One]

I am so sorry this is still going on PO. Yes, please get an updated MRI. Don't stop persisting

Thank you Jerry Atrick ( love the name btw, I always get a chuckle out of it).
I appreciate and have appreciated your guidance and compassion on many occasions.
Especially this one. I am eternally grateful.

I am going to stick it out for awhile and see if I do feel better.
I’m trying my hardest to have a better attitude about this situation.
Maybe this is all from morphine withdrawal???
IDK. I trusted the doctors and have followed their advise.
I am really seeing that doctors don’t know much and can make things worse.
Dentists too.
Maybe it would have been a better choice to never have stepped foot in a doctor or dentist office.
Their pharmakeia (sorcery) is what has deceived the entire world.
You kind of have no choice when things get so bad that you cannot sleep or eat.

I am trying to do the right thing,

My family feels like the morphine was killing me and. is the problem.
Maybe they are right.
I will stick it out as long as I can and hope, pray things improve.

Is this normal for someone moving from 75-90 mg MS Contin to 24 mg suboxone a day?
To be this sick for this long? It has been 5 months now.
I have had pneumonia, cannot eat, can’t sleep very much, migraines are out of control again. Hot - cold flashes from hell.
Been mostly down in bed for 5 months.

My history and medical tests do not back up their thoughts, but I am willing to either get worse or get better.
I absolutely do have some kind of health problem that has nothing to do with drugs of any kind,
I have used drugs to desperately try to control it.

I will get the MRI as soon as I am able and that will give us more information to work with.
I cannot believe my doctor did not give me a referral to go have one the last time I saw her.
It’s not like I can just go over to the hospital and tell them I need an MRI.

I am giving it all I got. Fighting hard.
I Hope something gives soon.
One way or the other.

Much love to you all.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Thank you Jerry Atrick ( love the name btw, I always get a chuckle out of it).
I appreciate and have appreciated your guidance and compassion on many occasions.
Especially this one. I am eternally grateful.

I am going to stick it out for awhile and see if I do feel better.
I’m trying my hardest to have a better attitude about this situation.
Maybe this is all from morphine withdrawal???
IDK. I trusted the doctors and have followed their advise.
I am really seeing that doctors don’t know much and can make things worse.
Dentists too.
Maybe it would have been a better choice to never have stepped foot in a doctor or dentist office.
Their pharmakeia (sorcery) is what has deceived the entire world.
You kind of have no choice when things get so bad that you cannot sleep or eat.

I am trying to do the right thing,

My family feels like the morphine was killing me and. is the problem.
Maybe they are right.
I will stick it out as long as I can and hope, pray things improve.

Is this normal for someone moving from 75-90 mg MS Contin to 24 mg suboxone a day?
To be this sick for this long? It has been 5 months now.
I have had pneumonia, cannot eat, can’t sleep very much, migraines are out of control again. Hot - cold flashes from hell.
Been mostly down in bed for 5 months.

My history and medical tests do not back up their thoughts, but I am willing to either get worse or get better.
I absolutely do have some kind of health problem that has nothing to do with drugs of any kind,
I have used drugs to desperately try to control it.

I will get the MRI as soon as I am able and that will give us more information to work with.
I cannot believe my doctor did not give me a referral to go have one the last time I saw her.
It’s not like I can just go over to the hospital and tell them I need an MRI.

I am giving it all I got. Fighting hard.
I Hope something gives soon.
One way or the other.

Much love to you all.

Are you still taking 24 mgs per day and that's okay with your Dr. ?

That dose is usually just a starting dose for a week or two to get you stable from the morphine and after that it goes down to 2-4 mgs ( maybe 6 ) per day. I'm no Dr. and I only know what I read on here but that dose is really really high for being on it for 5 months or so. I can almost bet you would feel better if you decreased your daily dose. Buprenorphine and morphine are two different animals and don't operate the same way in your body. I'm not sure why your Dr approves of you taking 24 mgs per day but if you read all the other sub threads on here most people get more out of LESS bupe. Your receptors are flooded with bupe and with the long half life it's no wonder you feel like shit.

 

[Delmonte421]

Can you maybe get something like codeine/ Thats not very addictive either but it might help the cravings. I dont think something as strong as subs would be a good idea either really

subs is 8x oxycodone lol what is this guy trying to do

 

[Delmonte421]

We all have our own subjective experiences with drugs or addiction. Personally I was highly addicted to kratom, up to 65g per day at one point, but generally only dosed 1 or 2 times per day and never felt compelled to redose-- simply because redosing isn't very effective, and it keeps me awake at night if I dose after 5pm.

I've been dependent on both kratom and bupe. I gave a pretty unbiased standpoint.

But in terms of my recommendation I can only go off my own experiences. Kratom was much easier to taper for me.

In the past I used kratom to get off of bupe, and it sucked. I still had withdrawals no matter how much kratom I took.

Thus, overall I see bupe as the more addictive/dependency forming drug.

Bupe has a way higher affinity to your receptors then the compounds in kratom and with its long ass half life you probably were just getting the bare minimum if that from krstom....its unfortunately not a two way street.

 

[Painful One]

Are you still taking 24 mgs per day and that's okay with your Dr. ?

That dose is usually just a starting dose for a week or two to get you stable from the morphine and after that it goes down to 2-4 mgs ( maybe 6 ) per day. I'm no Dr. and I only know what I read on here but that dose is really really high for being on it for 5 months or so. I can almost bet you would feel better if you decreased your daily dose. Buprenorphine and morphine are two different animals and don't operate the same way in your body. I'm not sure why your Dr approves of you taking 24 mgs per day but if you read all the other sub threads on here most people get more out of LESS bupe. Your receptors are flooded with bupe and with the long half life it's no wonder you feel like shit.

Yeah, I agree with you.
I have been slowly lowering it, but then go back up when I get the skull crushing migraines and other chronic pain.
I don’t think it really helps though.
I feel better on less, but I have to take a lot of ibuprofen.
(I am not supposed to take ibuprofe or Tylenol due to the fact that I have had Liver failure.
That is the main reason my other doctor, who retired, had me on morphine.
Morphine doesn’t hurt your liver. )

In fact, since I have been taking less, I have not been throwing up violently anymore.
I have been able to keep a little food down.
Like, a bowl of soup or cereal a day.

I also want to get out of the house and go on a little vacation.
I am planning that right now.
I think it would help me a lot to just get a change of atmosphere and have some company.
I need some sex.

I do feel a little more clear in my mind at times.
With the help of cannabis gummies, I feel pretty decent at times throughout the day.
I have been able to get up and do some work and exercise.
That helps.

I am going to continue to try and lower that dosage of suboxone.
It has a lot of side effects at that high of dose.
I think it is too strong.
I said that to the doctor I have now and she said “Too strong???!!” Like I was crazy.

Good Advice @Nurse Ratched
I appreciate it. So much.
It is hard to figure out what is what right now.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Yeah, I agree with you.
I have been slowly lowering it, but then go back up when I get the skull crushing migraines and other chronic pain.
I don’t think it really helps though.
I feel better on less, but I have to take a lot of ibuprofen.
(I am not supposed to take ibuprofe or Tylenol due to the fact that I have had Liver failure.
That is the main reason my other doctor, who retired, had me on morphine.
Morphine doesn’t hurt your liver. )

In fact, since I have been taking less, I have not been throwing up violently anymore.
I have been able to keep a little food down.
Like, a bowl of soup or cereal a day.

I also want to get out of the house and go on a little vacation.
I am planning that right now.
I think it would help me a lot to just get a change of atmosphere and have some company.
I need some sex.

I do feel a little more clear in my mind at times.
With the help of cannabis gummies, I feel pretty decent at times throughout the day.
I have been able to get up and do some work and exercise.
That helps.

I am going to continue to try and lower that dosage of suboxone.
It has a lot of side effects at that high of dose.
I think it is too strong.
I said that to the doctor I have now and she said “Too strong???!!” Like I was crazy.

Good Advice @Nurse Ratched
I appreciate it. So much.
It is hard to figure out what is what right now.

They say a change is as good as a rest. Sometimes just getting away from it all ( even if only in our mind ) does wonders. I know at one point she switched you over to subu ( tex ) from sub( oxone ). Did you find that it was any better? I know the naloxone in the suboxone gives many people headaches and that certainly can't be helping with the migraines. Do you still get your klonopin and gabapentin? If you do then maybe you can take those while decreasing your sub dose for the anxiety.

Keep us posted. I really hope that when you get down to a lower dose that you will feel much better. I can't believe that your Dr said that. Most Dr's don't even understand how suboxone works they just throw it at people and say here......take as much as you want. Ridiculous.

 

[Painful One]

They will not give you Subutex at the pharmacy where I live!
They claim they don’t have it. Bastards!
But yeah, I had her switch me to Subutex and it was better on my migraines.
I just cannot get it anymore.

I am telling you the medical system has gone to shit!
They are worthless.
They wouldn’t even let me get an appointment when I had my lungs full of fluid at Christmas and had pneumonia.
The girls at the desk are such bitches.
They made me wait until It was time for my Suboxone to be refilled and then made me sit in the office for 3 hours.
They took walk in’s before me.
When I finally saw the doctor, she was like holy shit and sent me to the hospital.

It is just ridiculous @Nurse Ratched
It doesn’t make any sense.

Can you spit out the liquid at the end after the suboxone dissolves and that is the naloxone?

Thank you for the help guys.
You are better than the doctors!

P.O.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

They will not give you Subutex at the pharmacy where I live!
They claim they don’t have it. Bastards!
But yeah, I had her switch me to Subutex and it was better on my migraines.
I just cannot get it anymore.

I am telling you the medical system has gone to shit!
They are worthless.
They wouldn’t even let me get an appointment when I had my lungs full of fluid at Christmas and had pneumonia.
The girls at the desk are such bitches.
They made me wait until It was time for my Suboxone to be refilled and then made me sit in the office for 3 hours.
They took walk in’s before me.
When I finally saw the doctor, she was like holy shit and sent me to the hospital.

It is just ridiculous @Nurse Ratched
It doesn’t make any sense.

Can you spit out the liquid at the end after the suboxone dissolves and that is the naloxone?

Thank you for the help guys.
You are better than the doctors!

P.O.

Unreal that they won't stock Subutex. How hard can it be, right?

Have no clue about the spit at the end after it dissolves. Not sure if the naloxone is left in there with the drool or it's all mixed in.

I only took it a couple of times and I just stuck it in my gums, let it dissolve and swallowed the whole mess as I was only seeing if they would get me high. A friend gave me a strip and all it really did was make me feel really tired and it gave me a headache.

Sure hope that you will start feeling better soon.