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Is ignorance bliss?

Well the realities of life can be pretty tough and cold. If you're an intelligent person who bases their worldview on reason and logic - you can't believe in God and that you're going to heaven, you can't believe that people are inherently good, you can't believe that everything will work out in the end, etc. etc.

So like Marx said "religion is the opiate of the people", defying reason and painting a pretty, pleasent picture of reality for yourself - and being able to actually believe it - must give a person a feeling like popping a few oxys, everything is going to be ok, it's all God's will anyways so whatever happens is how it was meant to be...

I think studies have shown that intelligent people are more prone to depression and such. But it doesn't have to be that way. You just have to accept things as they are, find a purpose and go for it.

I can think of some situations, like you just got married a year ago and your wife dies in childbirth and loses the baby - like in A Farewell to Arms - if you're a religious person you can rationalize it as God's plan and you'll see them again later. If you aren't you have to accept that this person you loved is gone forever, all you have left are memories and you'll never see them again. No matter how rational you are it's just crushing. So maybe the first person is better off. I'm equating religion with ignorance, that's my position anyways...

But that's a pretty cowardly way to live I think. I try to accept all the realities of life, good and bad. You see those videos online of someone having their head sawed off by Mexican cartel guys - it's gruesome and awful - but it's reality, it's something that happened, and, for me anyways, I don't want to turn my head and pretend these things don't happen so I can protect my sheltered worldview.

Sometimes life is complicated and that can be overwhelming. I guess the less you know the simpler things are and that makes life easier.

I would say I'm incapable of cognitive dissonance, I try to justify everything I believe with reason. I'm pretty happy and optimistic. There are a lot of problems in the world but look how far we've come from 100 years ago, even 20 years ago!
 
There are days where I for sure feel really challenged and there is that seed of doubt that wonders what the point of all this is.

Tonight I had an epiphany about my own question. It's like being a baby. To say that ignorance is bliss is like saying that never being born is better, because life must necessitate knowledge of things that make you suffer. But we would not call a baby enlightened, would we? (A better word for this might be self-actualized, but "enlightened" works for me.)

An enlightened person has gone through life with full-body knowledge of the way the world is, and has come through it in a state of grace and a sense of innocence in tact. They are able to practice acceptance under many circumstances, and achieve a different kind of bliss.

A baby may arrive innocently enough, but it lacks grace. It is challenged from the second it arrives, by being taken from a cozy womb environment, to a world that is bright and filled with challenge. Many babies cry about something as simple as a strange light turning on, or very gently bumping themselves off an object. They just don't know these sensations, so it brings temporary trauma. That is what ignorance in its purest form looks like.

I think bliss comes in living life and learning to alchemize the experience into a state of grace. It's like the ultimate job well done that brings you ever lasting pleasure and satisfaction, but with the addition of great wisdom. The question of ignorance being bliss almost seems like an oxymoron in that context, since ignorance and bliss cannot possibly coincide.

What do you all think of this idea?
 
I'm a pretty young dude but I would have to lean to the idea that ignorance in some form does correlate to a blissful state. I liked the Schopenhauer quote that the 1st replier mentioned - that seems very accurate, intelligence does not help. Even though the physical/mental suffering undergone by uneducated or illiterate people as a result of some bad decisions that they have made, for example, is, undoubtedly, painful, it seems like the same suffering, when viewed from an outward and objective perspective, experienced by a person who is more fully educated and aware of that what they are going through is the consequential result of actions which they have performed contrary to laws of either morality or commonsense, e.g., feeling pitiful about one's state of existence after committing a particularly health-damaging drug binge, and of which they have been more than made knowledgeable of via their personalized education, would be, relatively, much worse.

For example, I remember reading about this amphetamines-drug-report on the web, not saying where, and it was by a full-fledged medical doctor, working in a hospital and everything. Basically, they just very briefly dabbled in Ritalin, using only 3 15 mg pills over two days - however, due to some incident at the hospital, he had to be piss-tested for drugs and just barely escaped with a negative reading - still, he was put on probation for a high level of having amphetamines in his urine sample. Anyway, the deal is, the guy completely knew what he was doing was completely wrong via taking Ritalin without a prescription or need for it, after at least a decade of education which went to his pursuit of becoming a legitimate doctor in the Western world. But, I mean, it is not as if he had to deal with any physical or mental or psychological problems from taking the Ritalin, he just knew what he was doing was completely opposite to what he had been trained and taught in medical school, with ethics and health concerns, and he was scared to death, seemingly, of the societal repercussions he would have to face thereby.

In that sense, then, I do think that, while ignorance being linked to bliss is somewhat difficult to prove since as grown people able to communicate and talk on this site none of us are, obviously, totally ignorant, nonetheless, a definite case can be made for connecting knowledge and intelligence to pain, whether felt or perceived. Even before I ever did drugs, I was always a fairly sensitive human, understanding of my surroundings, thoughtful on my societal environment - none of it, what I saw or felt all around me, made me 'happy' - I have always, in some sense or other, even when perfectly healthy and normal, been somewhat depressed. I do not think that I am a normative depressive personality, I have never seriously contemplated suicide, even in my darkest moments, but, still, suffering is there, and, with my self-reflective consciousness, I am aware of it, and I do not like it, at all. Living in the matrix, which precludes becoming educated to some degree, whether in just being able to verbally communicate and understand what other people are saying or doing in the outside world, is a saddening experience, in my opinion.

As another, much easier to reference (and probably more pertinent, as well), example, I wanted to bring up Sigmund Freud, yeah, the dude who founded Western psychology/psychoanalysis and who started off writing scientific papers on hermaphroditic eels (for real) and cocaine studies before moving on to analyzing his Viennese neurotic-psychotic basket cases deserving of a concrete type of therapeutic analysis, e.g. Anna O, getting into the interpretation of dreams, the dissection of the psychical personality of people in general, along the lines of the Super-Ego, the Ego, and the Id, etc. etc., among many other things. Just wanted to say that Freud is a bit of a pinnacle of humanistic/mental-scientific knowledge and learning in the 20th century, a place he definitely earned. I personally see Freud as, without a doubt, one of the preeminent thinkers in human history. Nonetheless, Freud was pissed off as all hell with humanity - he thought that humans were emblematic of a failed race, that 'God' or whatever supernatural creating force was out there (although Freud was a determined atheist, actually) simply needed to start over with another type of species because humans were just killing themselves and wasting their life potentials. And, further, despite being so radically intelligent and foundational to 20th century Western thought, Freud was not a happy camper, by the end of his career he just wasn't having 'it', as in, life. I don't know how much it is commonly known, most people think that Freud simply died of cancer, but, technically, he committed suicide by putting a bag over his head. All that wisdom and he snuffed out his own life - nevertheless, he was an old man and had certainly made his intellectual mark by that point in his life, I don't think many people would blame him. I'm not advocating suicide or depression, ultimately, I don't know what to believe. I'm just saying that ignorance is likely more blissful a state than supreme material understanding, which Freud, if anyone, definitively seems to have possessed in a historical view.
 
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@omnipresenthuman: how did the Dr test positive for amphetamines when he didn't take one (methylphenidate is not an amphetamine).

and jesus christ Frued is not the best example of intelligence in the 20th century. His coked up ramblings showed what a fucked up person he was, not the world he lived in. He didn't really contribute much to the world of psychology, which is a big pile of shit today anyway.

I agree with MyDoorsAreOpen about ignorance being bittersweet. That's exactly correct. All humans suffer, whether ignorant or not. I think enlightenment is bullshit and bliss may as well be too and should be. Suffering is an integral part of evolution, without suffering, things do not change in general. Happiness is fleeting, it will always come and go. I can't really argue against bliss and enlightenment because they aren't defined well. It's some mystical thing our ancestors thought up.

so if the ignorant never suffered, ie. if life was bliss for them, then i don't think they would have made it this far in evolution. Of course there is a whole spectrum of ignorance as well to complicate matters. Even if ignorance were bliss, would anyone make that choice to be ignorant? I don't think any intelligent person would as intelligent people become intelligent through their curiosity and not through their complacency or desire to be in a constant state of bliss.
 
Well I think the highest level a person can reach is the state called self actualization.

"Efficient perceptions of reality. Self-actualizers are able to judge situations correctly and honestly. They are very sensitive to the fake and dishonest, and are free to see reality 'as it is'.
Comfortable acceptance of self, others, nature. Self-actualizers accept their own human nature with all its flaws. The shortcomings of others and the contradictions of the human condition are accepted with humor and tolerance."
 
@RobotRipping: Just in defense of my earlier post, first of all, my bad, the doctor took dexedrine, ok? That explains why he tested positive for amphetamines. It's just a short anecdote I was using anyway. As for Freud...I mean, you can have that opinion, I'm not trying to detract from that, but if you're going to chalk up his writings to just "coked up ramblings" which "didn't really contribute much to the world of psychology," yeah, that's your opinion. He's the founder of Western psychology/psychoanalysis, it's pretty well accepted. I'm not saying I'm not equally a fan of Carl Jung or William James or even Frederic Myers, who in some ways are all actually smarter than Freud (Myers is especially interesting, he wrote about near death experiences and was into psychical research), but so what, I'm just giving the nod to the academic consensus, my bad (once again...). And let me be clear, I might be new to this site, I see you have more than 2,800 more posts on here than me, but that doesn't mean you have to tear apart my argument, I'm just using some examples that I thought were somewhat pertinent. You can call psychology "a big pile of shit today," that's totally cool, but I think it has a lot to offer to anyone, at any stage in their life. Psychology has a ton of different interesting routes which end up in much more spiritual places than Freud was ever trying to pursue. For example, Abraham Maslow, who's associated with humanist psychology, talked about achieving 'peak states' which could help propel people out of clinical depression, essentially into a blissful state even with their concurrent knowledge of evil and pain as would be expected from a patient descended into seeming worlds of pain and despair. And honestly, I'm surprised no-one else is bringing up psychology, it helps add another dimension to the whole discussion. Anyway, yeah, Freud was a "fucked up person" (trust me, I know all about THAT, he psychoanalyzed his own daughter, Anna Freud, who became a complete lesbian) but so are you and so am I, and so is everyone for that matter whether they like to admit it or not, so don't discredit him for that. Just saying, Freud is actually a pretty easy target to criticize, a lot of people have gone down that route, by no means are you the first, my friend...if you really go through what he has to say though, I mean, if you honestly don't think that he is brilliant, alright, but yeah, he thought about the subject of this thread his whole life, he's very relevant whether you as one person lambasts his own system of thought or not. Jesus...

And I'm really not trying to defend Freud, fuck it, I'm just trying to defend a bit of what I was saying. I suggest his, 'The Future of an Illusion,' where he deconstructs Western religion, after giving that book a read I'd find it hard to just attribute all of his writings to coked up ramblings - he also has a few interesting papers where he discusses the likelihood of telepathy. Whatever though, Freud don't got nothing to prove, and I'm just trying to give an opinion and contribute to this conversation.

I'm not trying to rip apart what you were saying about what I was saying, I'm just trying to back up what I said in the first place. Peace.
 
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feel free to rip apart my posts lol it's just a forum where we throw ideas around, it's nothing personal. You wouldn't happen to be a psych major would you? lol In school we (profs and students in philosophy) constantly shat all over psychology. It's a flawed science and neuroscience will most certainly take its place in the future.

Freud is kind of funny, you know he could be completely right about everything but you just can't prove it. Not all of his writings are the ramblings of a coke head but still, he did a lot to discredit psychology as a science. Maybe that was a good thing.

Don't fall for ideas like common sense, always remain critical of what you learn even at higher levels of education. Even my psych profs (took a few courses for fun) would shit all over Freud, which has probably given me a bias against him. I have no personal feud with Freud (lol) but given our advancements in neuroscience, i think his ideas that made such an impact don't hold a candle to what we are learning about the brain now. It's not Freud's fault, he did the best he could with what he had and in doing so did change the way the world thought about psychology, that certainly makes him special but i don't equate what he accomplished to something particle physicists have accomplished in changing our understanding of the universe. Freud to me, is like the Timothy Leary of psychology.

i wasn't trying to pick on you, just point out a few things that may change your perspective a bit or give you some food for thought.

i never really understood the whole 'self-actualization' thing. Even with the definition, what the fuck does that even mean? I know maslow's hierarchy of needs and all that shit but enlightenment, self-actualization, or whatever other term sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. There's absolutely no objective or scientific test to show whether this state actually exists. I can say i have reached self-actualization and that's all i need to be considered enlightened.
 
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Well it's like nirvana to Bhuddists, you'll probably never get to that point where you're totally self-actualized, and if you are you maybe won't know it. But it's a set of characteristics which are common to people who feel a sense of accomplishment in their life and are highly satisfied and happy.
 
there are many people who need nothing, but are not enlightened. what is meant by being fully realized is realizing all that can be about yourself, about what is in your subconscious so that the subconscious no longer exists for you. enlightenment is what happens when each chakra is opened; the gates to the higher mind; aka the pearl-gates, as referred to in Christianity as the gates to heaven.

what does it take to open and clear each chakra? the ability to surpass what each chakra is related to in this life time, reincarnation has much to do with the chakras and where the soul had reached at the time of death, determining where it exits from.

the most blissful thing about ignorance, imo, is the sense of surprise and pleasure that comes from learning something new.
 
well my father spent a year or two working with a spiritual therapist of some sort and they went through the whole chakra opening thing, channeling and other strange stuff that interests me, like the occult. Do people actually reach a state where the subconscious no longer exists? is that sort of the same as the ego no longer existing? And i guess the same as knowing that you are apart of something bigger and not just an individual body, kind of like in pantheism, you are a part of the whole and your sense of 'you' is gone. I've had that feeling on psychedelics, i don't think i could function in society like that though. If that's equated with enlightenment then i can understand that but i'd still say it's impossible to achieve for more than a temporary amount of time, otherwise you'd probably just seem crazy to everyone else.

Yeah nirvana in buddhism, i was trying to remember the word for it. Thanks for the clarification PiP and i guess that is a blissful thing about ignorance; like watching the show The Wire or Breaking Bad for the first time all over again :)
 
Foreigner said:
I've come across more than one highly intelligent person who enjoyed how much they knew and understood, but at the same time acknowledged that it opened up their world to a different kind of suffering. It revealed to them a lot about what's wrong with the world, yet showed them that no one person has the power to change it all.

So I ask, are ignorant people necessarily happier?
Click to expand...

NO, not for me anyhow! (Or my sister!) I absolutely LOVE learning, and interestingly, just seconds before I saw this thread, I was having a moment of gratitude for my education.

As with all good things, education is indeed a double-edged sword. For instance, when a child's "innocent" view of the world is lost, and he or she begins to learn about horrors such as murder and rape and all sorts of diseases, etc.

BUT, the positives FAR outweigh the negatives when it comes to being educated in general. Really, the world is an absolutely mesmerizing, colorful, majestic place.
 
This is tough.
Life was pretty good when Santa was real, but I place high value in truth.

Give me the red pill.
I'd like to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes.. %)
 
In a way I would say that yes the state of ignorance, it is a blissful and, well, comfortable place to be. However as the lyrics of one song I liked a long time ago say: "I do not envy the conscience pure of a blind man in his bliss world".

I believe knowledge is far more valuable than the bliss of ignorance.

But of course thing tend to be more complicated than they seem and this is no exception. Sometimes ignorance results in suffering as well. I guess the distinction here is the fact that knowledge and understanding open ways for whole new levels of suffering as previously mentioned in the thread. The suffering brings with it the means to change things for the better though, that's why I put value in it.
 
I actually know a truly ignorant person. I think that she has become ignorant because the suffering was too much to bear. Maybe ignorance is only acquired after great suffering and it's like an escape. But honestly, I think that ignorance is boring. It may seem happy-go-lucky, but it's got some deep-rooted problems. And with ignorance, you can't see the beauty of every little thing, and that is soo not worth the lack of pain and sadness, in my opinion.
 
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