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Harm Reduction Is giving out needles to addicts really still "harm reduction" in this age of Fent and Nitazenes?

GulpingBatteryLiquid said:
It could be argued that Blair massively increasing the population for no real reason was one of the many causes of later NHS inefficiency
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It could, but it would be nonsense. Record NHS spending cuts and the highest immigration figures in history under the subsequent Conservative government, coupled with an ageing population and a global pandemic that we were wholly unprepared for due to the starvation of funds from our public health system almost certainly contributed more.

Will leave it there though because I've already been told off once for feeding into off topic discussions in this thread!
 
moshforjesus said:
It could, but it would be nonsense. Record NHS spending cuts and the highest immigration figures in history under the subsequent Conservative government, coupled with an ageing population and a global pandemic that we were wholly unprepared for due to the starvation of funds from our public health system almost certainly contributed more.

Will leave it there though because I've already been told off once for feeding into off topic discussions in this thread!
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The NHS gets around the same amount of money as other healthcare systems with far better outcomes, relative to the population

The fact that the Tories increased immigration even more does not mean that Blair did not also increase it

We were completely prepared for the pandemic, the measures we took were pretty much solely down to politicians being scared of newspaper hysteria

I typed that out before I read your last line, will also leave it here
 
moshforjesus said:
John Major is pretty much universally acknowledged has having been a shit PM, and for all his other faults, the NHS was incredibly efficient under Blair
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So majors was shit and Blair followed America into Iraq and Afghanistan sounds like both sides of the political suck over there as here. Even under Blair everybody was always bitching about NHS, because socialized medicine is also rationed care and not all districts are the same comrade and they were bitching about no mri machines and lack of equipment and long waits ect under Blair.
I suppose you also think Thatcher who helped defeat communism with Reagan was terrible too. Lol
 
moshforjesus said:
I think you have a few misconceptions here:


So, in the UK we can earn more money before we start paying tax, while higher income earners in the US likely pay more than the UK. The main difference is that we actually get provided with a few services for the tax that we pay :ROFLMAO:

Since 2017 we also have the GDPR data protection legislation, which is amongst the most robust in the world
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We don't shit till a certain point then it use to start at 10% and now 15%, also what about all the hidden taxes, on goods, VAT tax that is 20%? What is that. America 0-8.25% sales tax except on many things depending. 6% I pay on somestuff other than food.
 
Jnowhere said:
Even under Blair everybody was always bitching about NHS
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We really weren't, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. I'll be making good use of the ignore function now to avoid being dragged into further non-sensical and off topic discussions
 
Jnowhere said:
My bad, not long ago people complained about no test strips for xylazine. Also what are nitrazenes?

One question, how do homeless people with no credit cards order them?
My opiods are prescribed and legally used so I am unaware of certain aspects about nitrazenes, and Xylazine also I am in America and we have worse issue, fentanyl and the fact that once people use it, many seek it. Also traq dope( aka xylazine is sought out by some).
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It's no problem I just wanted you to know you can get them instantly on Amazon same with Rigs. I wasn't being dismissive of your statement.
 
Pickledlemons said:
I mean it doesn't really matter what you inject, its still safer to inject it, if its from a clean needle.
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Yeah do you know of the image of a used needle after 6 times like turning into like razer barbs and being crooked and jagged? Wasn't that proven to be a hoax or not accurate? I reuse a lot of my needles just cus im lazy. I don't look super upclose at them but I would know if it was jagged or bent I'm pretty sure. I obviously advocate for clean needles for people.
 
TheGyattDamnRizzler said:
Yeah do you know of the image of a used needle after 6 times like turning into like razer barbs and being crooked and jagged? Wasn't that proven to be a hoax or not accurate? I reuse a lot of my needles just cus im lazy. I don't look super upclose at them but I would know if it was jagged or bent I'm pretty sure. I obviously advocate for clean needles for people.
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Needles are next to free man, even if you're not getting them for free. Maybe the particular image you're talking about is a meme (I don't know of it is) but reusing 6 times surely isn't great for you
 
GulpingBatteryLiquid said:
Needles are next to free man, even if you're not getting them for free. Maybe the particular image you're talking about is a meme (I don't know of it is) but reusing 6 times surely isn't great for you
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I know there free and easy to get. Sometimes I do my "not physically leaving room for a week routine" though lol. Its also out of habit from back in the day when they were annoying to get.
 
TheGyattDamnRizzler said:
Yeah do you know of the image of a used needle after 6 times like turning into like razer barbs and being crooked and jagged? Wasn't that proven to be a hoax or not accurate? I reuse a lot of my needles just cus im lazy. I don't look super upclose at them but I would know if it was jagged or bent I'm pretty sure. I obviously advocate for clean needles for people.
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Yeah, I know diabetics who said they used them usually twice and after that it was an issue. I don't know if the needle size(gauge?) makes a difference but I have heard that they are horrible after too many uses( non diabetic ones). They use cheap steel for disposable needles which can't hold a sharpened edge. They need to make Ginza steel needles, like those cheap knives they used to sell on infomercials. They would hold an edge.

Yeah, in Cuba they had a problem with doctors getting clean needles so HIV got spread, not to mention pain and other diseases.

People, have gotten HIV/AIDS by their spouses/lovers sharing needles. Also from street hookers who shared needles and guys stupid enough not to use a condoms and passing it to onto others.

But clean needles in many areas is a public health issue; that can affect and infect people who ordinarily wouldn't be at risk for HIV, hepatitis and other blood transmittable diseases.
 
Well it's not like people who are careless enough to inject dope they know is mostly fent or nitazines wouldn't carry on injecting with used / shared needles in the absence of a clean alternative... so it's at least still removing the infection risk from the equation.
But with the stuff that's going around now really what's needed is supervised sites in terms of harm reduction.
 
TheUltimateFixx said:
Well it's not like people who are careless enough to inject dope they know is mostly fent or nitazines wouldn't carry on injecting with used / shared needles in the absence of a clean alternative... so it's at least still removing the infection risk from the equation.
But with the stuff that's going around now really what's needed is supervised sites in terms of harm reduction.
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We are working on making them more common. Its a process that's ongoing, and we have to be patient with push back from politicians who honestly are stupid as shit in the case of those in the USA. Its less of an issue in the EU where DCRs are more common. In the US though, there are apps and phone numbers people can call before shooting up to ensure that if they OD emergency personel will arrive. Though, I don't know how successful those programs are since many users are too afraid they will get in trouble for calling and giving location, and then if medics know it is someone ODing in US many will say "fuck it" and let the person die I hear... idk...

Much needs improvement in the USA from what I hear, but I think that won't happen until there is better public education and/or less corruption in politics somehow.
 
ShulginsReincarnation said:
We are working on making them more common. Its a process that's ongoing, and we have to be patient with push back from politicians who honestly are stupid as shit in the case of those in the USA. Its less of an issue in the EU where DCRs are more common. In the US though, there are apps and phone numbers people can call before shooting up to ensure that if they OD emergency personel will arrive. Though, I don't know how successful those programs are since many users are too afraid they will get in trouble for calling and giving location, and then if medics know it is someone ODing in US many will say "fuck it" and let the person die I hear... idk...

Much needs improvement in the USA from what I hear, but I think that won't happen until there is better public education and/or less corruption in politics somehow.
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In the EU it depends on country and region. For instance my home country of Germany is one of the trailblazers, but still 9 of the federal states do not permit safe sites. Especially the politically conservative state of Bavaria is against any such measures, despite there being a desperate need. All in all 32 safe sites are in operation as of today, but the distribution is very uneven.

... I also work in harm reduction. Here in the UK it's a feet-dragging process. A couple years ago a first site was proposed for Glasgow, Scotland, the city with thr highest number of drug deaths. After a long campaign approval was finally given, only for the government to then shut it down again. Things are slowly inching in the right direction here but it's miles behind countries like Denmark, France, Germany, Switzerland etc.
I'd be happy to see more such places established, but at the end of the day it's really just sticking a plaster over the real problem created by prohibition. What's needed is a LEGAL, regulated, pharmaceutical-grade, uncontaminated supply with predictable potency that can be safely dosed.
 
TheUltimateFixx said:
In the EU it depends on country and region. For instance my home country of Germany is one of the trailblazers, but still 9 of the federal states do not permit safe sites. Especially the politically conservative state of Bavaria is against any such measures, despite there being a desperate need. All in all 32 safe sites are in operation as of today, but the distribution is very uneven.

... I also work in harm reduction. Here in the UK it's a feet-dragging process. A couple years ago a first site was proposed for Glasgow, Scotland, the city with thr highest number of drug deaths. After a long campaign approval was finally given, only for the government to then shut it down again. Things are slowly inching in the right direction here but it's miles behind countries like Denmark, France, Germany, Switzerland etc.
I'd be happy to see more such places established, but at the end of the day it's really just sticking a plaster over the real problem created by prohibition. What's needed is a LEGAL, regulated, pharmaceutical-grade, uncontaminated supply with predictable potency that can be safely dosed.
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Yes, I am aware of the limitations you have mentioned regarding the unequal distribution of DRCs in the EU. The politics behind it are quite disturbing; to me it seems those who oppose it think murder is okay, but that is just my take on what they are facilitating by not allowing DCRs. I did not know that much (and still do not) about the situation in the UK yet.

Anyway though, yes, I agree whole heartedly regarding the need for legalization and regulation. I often mention this as well, but as you know that is far away still yet. DCRs are, as you say, a plaster compared to how the resolution of the problem will happen.

Thank you for sharing the knowledge :)
 
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Bleaney said:
I know it's always been a controversial topic, but up until very recently I'd always understood the logic, that it helps prevent the risk of spreading infections / diseases, as being the main driver behind the schemes.

But I heard someone legitimately question the other day, how can it still be called "harm reduction", when facilititating easy access to injecting street drugs cut with things like fent and nitazenes? Injecting these things is going to kill a lot more people, a lot more quickly, than any infectious diseases!

He's not wrong!? I think he seriously has a very good point.

It might it be time to re-consider this policy, at least in areas where the prevalence of fent or nitazenes is known to be very high, and the area is seeing lots of fatalities. Mostly in certain areas of some of the big US cities, like San Fransiscos' Tenderloin, Philadelphias' Kensington, and Los Angeles' Skid Row, seeming to have the most catastrophically out of control problems.

Not sure if it's media bias on YouTube etc, but the political leaders of San Fransisco, mayor London Breed etc, are constantly getting a terrible reputation for being on the ridiculous side of "woke" with being far too soft on crime and other issues. But as far as I can tell it really does seem to be such woke policies that are at least playing a part in the problem.
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Clean needles reduce to spread of diseases like hep C and HIV. Here in Canada where healthcare is public, it is seen as a cost saving measure. They (the gov/most of society) don't actually care if addicts live or die. The deaths of addicts has never been a compelling argument in the public relations campaign. They just want to prevent more healthcare spending on otherwise preventable diseases.

Drug contamination is more about the question of safe supply. Here in BC, they are already doing safe supply. While it has certainly prevented some addicts from death, the supply is being sold on the black market. There's also no easy access to rehab in BC.. so the government is giving out addictive substances using tax dollars but then not funding a proper exit strategy for addicts. This is my main problem with it. Our provincial health officer has flat out said that addiction is a lifelong disease with no cure, so we should just give addicts all the substances they need. A lot of people, including people in recovery, have spoken out against her statements. But Vancouver is just as bad as the American west coast cities for ideological leftism, so it's not going to change anytime soon.

As for SF... it is a cesspool of left-wing progressive policy failure. Their city council is inhabited by total morons with zero qualifications in... well, anything, including being qualified to discern reality.
 
TheGyattDamnRizzler said:
Yeah do you know of the image of a used needle after 6 times like turning into like razer barbs and being crooked and jagged? Wasn't that proven to be a hoax or not accurate? I reuse a lot of my needles just cus im lazy. I don't look super upclose at them but I would know if it was jagged or bent I'm pretty sure. I obviously advocate for clean needles for people.
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Yeah I mean.... I support needle exchanges... but I also understand that using a syringe two or three times... isn't necessarily the end of the world.
 
Pickledlemons said:
Yeah I mean.... I support needle exchanges... but I also understand that using a syringe two or three times... isn't necessarily the end of the world.
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It is somewhat unsanitary, but the human body can usually fight off most pathogens sufficiently.
Just something for people who use drugs intraveneously to keep in mind as they get older and their immune systems weaken.

We are not immortal beings, but we are resilient... Usually, unless one happens to get unlucky by reusing a needle contaminated with a pathogen that is exceptional difficult for the human body to fight off. Something else to keep in mind.

IV drug use is exceptionally risky compared to other ROAs for countless reasons, and infectious disease is a major one of course.

If a person is going to do it, its not something that immediately makes them a "junkie" or an "addict" or whatever label someone might want to cast on such a person these days, but it does come with its risks which is where the prejudice and discrimination against IV drug users comes from. Its a fucked up side effect of our evolution as social creatures if you want to look at it that way. Usually, it tends to be less intelligent people who see such use with disdain rather than wanting to just provide the drug users with clean needles and educate them on harm reduction practices from what I have found. Its sad really, and that's kind of where we are at as a species right now. Frustrating, but this is a part of our evolution it seems.
 
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