Is Free Will Frightening?

[jfischer218]

I cant sleep, its been bugging me. Free will - we all have it. At any moment at any point in time we have the capability to do whatever we so desire. One way to look at it is that theres almost 7 billion people in the world - ALL of them capable of doing whatever they want. Thats mot what I mean, though the thought is disturbing. What I mean is that right now, at this very moment, I fould end my life. Or, I coild walk outside and break into a car for no good reason other than I felt like it. I could do ANYTHING I want, 100% of the time. It seems like alot of responsibility. How can it be that EVERYBODY, ALL 7 BILLION people, can ALWAYS do what they want. It doesnt make sense. How is the world not in shambles? Mob rule? When people entire a mob they act in certain ways they otherwise wouldnt to go along with everyone else. Is that what society is? A giant mob that has evolved thousands of years to the point where people behave a certain way? Thats exactly what it is. Thats why people from Eastern cultures act differently than people from Western cultures. Thats why every country everywhere where laws are different behave in slightly different ways. How is it that theyre able to move from one part of the world to another and acclimate to that society? Mob rule, again? Probably.

Its scary to think about, for me atleast. We are in complete control of our lives, all the time. If I wanted to throw the phone im typing this message with at the wall for no good reason, I could. If I wanted to go outside and piss on my neighbors cat, I could.

Have you ever considered the question "What are you doing?" It has a subtle meaning that everyone takes for granted. The fact that we all know everyone else has free will. Are we using the most of our free will? Is going to a 9-5 job or participating in what the rest of society participates in really the best way we can use it? I dont have an answer, and frankly, anyone who claims to is probably an idiot. There is no answer, thats scary as well. 7 billion people each excersizing what they want, or what they consider they 'need' to do. It doesnt make any sense. Man working together to accomplish a greater goal. What is that greater goal exactly? Go to school, get a job, and make lots of money so that we can attract partners to have sex with? Even sex is an instinctual impulse because its hard-wired into our brains that we need to have it so that we can have babies and they can do the same thing. Its a never ending circle, ALWAYS about the same thing. "How can we progress society so that we can work less and have more sex."

There doesnt seem to be any point. Even this. What the hell am I doing. Im writing this on my phone at 530 in the am because I have no one besides internet people to express my ideas to. Why the hell do I need to express my thoughts to anyone? Because its 'normal?' Or because id go crazy thinking to myself until eventually I get to the point that my own thoughts become so warped that I can never rejoin society. The basic human need for companionship is an odd thing. Free will is an odd thing. That, however, begs the question "what would be the alternative to free will, and would anyone want it?" Obviously if there was no free will then there would have to be someone ordering everone. That person would undoubtedly have free will, and the people being commanded would have the thoughts that THEY should be the one to give the orders.

Its messed up. Its all messed up.

My $0.02

 

[aussie101]

Calm your mind. Try some mindfulness techniques, breathing techniques, perhaps some meditation...

I have seen these types of posts from you before

Just chill...

 

[jfischer218]

Lol im not sure what you mean by 'these types of posts'...

And nah its not even like im tripping and need to chill or anything, ive been clean for a while. Just some thoights that turned into a rant haha

 

[Foreigner]

Free will can't exist exclusively. It does at least partly, but there are still so many factors that govern your choices.

I like the idea that free will and determinism work together co-creatively, and that you're here to carry out some kind of mission but are given unlimited choice in how that's done. So in other words, although you can choose what to do, the same lessons will manifest in your life through a multitude of very different ways no matter where you are, all according to your learning plan. Who knows for sure though.

In the mean time, go to sleep! Otherwise you are choosing insanity

 

[-=SS=-]

I would argue against your assumption that we all have free will. I believe it's more the opposite; we're actually pretty damn mechanical/robotic and just moving forwards according our programming and stimulation, and that we get occassional glimpses of free will along the way. Like in a dream at night, you kind of just stumble forwards without really consciously deciding anything, but occassionally you'll question something or see something that doesn't make sense and your awareness brightens for a second.. and you either become lucid or you just sink back down into auto-pilot.

Again I think we're actually less in control than we believe ourselves to be. It's only when you get a glimpse of your mind from another perspective (meditation, psychedelics, NDE etc) that you realize just how pathetically enslaved to programming you are! At no point are we really doing anything.. the irony is that we identify ourselves to be our body and our "life".. when infact we're the thing that is watching it all occuring.

I think your post actually proved my point. "How is the world not in shambles?". Because people are programmed to not step too far outside the accepted norm or face social or criminal isolation. Obviously some do, but the majority accept the programming and conform.

But the modern society is fucked up, infact it is starting to fall apart. The economic situation has not peaked and we're heading for total disaster.. but no one wants to admit it and do something about it (fuckign baby boomers!). Forget trying to change things or worrying about changing the world, or other people. It's all fucked. The only thing left is to figure out what you want.. do you want to just follow the programming, or do you want the Truth?

 

[rez_runner]

^ this.

The conscious mind supposedly processes about 40 bits of information per second, and the subconscious something like 40 million. We have no idea whats going on in there a majority of the time and why we have certain impulses. We are helpless

 

[cire113]

Again I think we're actually less in control than we believe ourselves to be. It's only when you get a glimpse of your mind from another perspective (meditation, psychedelics, NDE etc) that you realize just how pathetically enslaved to programming you are! At no point are we really doing anything.. the irony is that we identify ourselves to be our body and our "life".. when infact we're the thing that is watching it all occuring.

Yup pretty much true

 

[TheAppleCore]

Free will - we all have it. At any moment at any point in time we have the capability to do whatever we so desire.

I take issue with this statement. We have an extremely limited number of options. Sure, I have pretty good control over my four limbs. But even then, there are certain places on my back that I just can't quite reach, to scratch an itch.

How is the world not in shambles? People successfully cooperate for the same reason that ants cooperate to build ant colonies. Evolution.

Even sex is an instinctual impulse because its hard-wired into our brains that we need to have it so that we can have babies and they can do the same thing. Its a never ending circle, ALWAYS about the same thing. "How can we progress society so that we can work less and have more sex."

You're absolutely right. Everything is part of a neverending biological cycle. We work to survive to fuck to make babies who grow up to work to survive to fuck to make babies, etc. I don't see a problem with this. It's a fun cycle. I like fucking.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

At any moment at any point in time we have the capability to do whatever we so desire.

I categorically deny this statement. I'm pretty fatalistic myself.

If I wanted to throw the phone im typing this message with at the wall for no good reason, I could. If I wanted to go outside and piss on my neighbors cat, I could.

But you don't, and you won't, so can you truly do so? You only know if you can do something if you do it.

 

[jfischer218]

I take issue with this statement. We have an extremely limited number of options.

Maybe this was taken too literally. I meant were capable of doing whsts within physical means.

And -=Ss=-, I agree with you in the respect youre talking about.

Though we have free will to do what we want (I.e. robbing a bank), most of it revolves around the societal boundaries of the culture we live in. Thats why free will is frightening. I said that theres 7 billion people, all with free will. Absolutely correct, just like ants in a colony, we all strive towards a certain goal. These 'goals' are put in place by society and tend to be trivial if you think about it.

Also, as you mentioned with psycheledics, it does feel a bit ridiculous when you look at your life through that perspective. I felt so ridicuoous when I looked at myself. I mean, ffs. I ate shrooms that had no earthly business being in my area. Some people cultivated them for the purpose of eating then so they can poison themself. If you were in nature trying to survive and ate them itd be scary as shit. I mean realistically its ridiculous that i sat in my room eating this shit feeling safe. It just doesnt make any sense

And Never Knows Best, I did end up throwing it for the hell of it. It was my note 2 but I dont want to be using smartphones anymore after hearing about some of the new spyware thats been coming out on it.

 

[TheAppleCore]

But you don't, and you won't, so can you truly do so? You only know if you can do something if you do it.

I've thought about this. And I came to the conclusion that the word "can" has a certain meaning: I can do X - I am capable of doing X, in other words - if the desire for X leads to the reality of X. For instance, I'd like to reply to your post, and I can, hence you see the post. If I couldn't (e.g. if my internet access blacked out), then you wouldn't see this post.

So, jfischer definitely can throw his phone against the wall, because if he really wanted to, it would happen.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I've thought about this. And I came to the conclusion that the word "can" has a certain meaning: I can do X - I am capable of doing X, in other words - if the desire for X leads to the reality of X.

The human body can do x (is phsyically capable of, in theory), but your mind is a creation of your brain, which is a part of your body just as bound by inexorable physical law as the rest, so the question of whether a specific person can perform a specific action at a specific point in space-time is not so clear cut. If we ignore hard determinism, we can at least say that certain actions are improbable. Otherwise, there would not be a scientific field of psychology.

if the desire for X

Since we don't have control over our desires (unless you're saying we do), our actions are not truly free, but bounded by our involuntary desires.

 

[TheAppleCore]

The human body can do x (is phsyically capable of, in theory), but your mind is a creation of your brain, which is a part of your body just as bound by inexorable physical law as the rest, so the question of whether a specific person can perform a specific action at a specific point in space-time is not so clear cut. If we ignore hard determinism, we can at least say that certain actions are improbable. Otherwise, there would not be a scientific field of psychology.



Since we don't have control over our desires (unless you're saying we do), our actions are not truly free, but bounded by our involuntary desires.

Yes, I totally agree with what you're saying. In other words, because of the mechanical and (quasi?) deterministic nature of material reality, there are only a limited number of possible actions a human being can take at a specific point in time - if you look at things from more of a Newtonian perspective, there is only one possible course of action.

However, you're looking at reality as it is. "Capacity" - whether or not I can do something - is based on a hypothetical reality. If, hypothetically, I were to desire nothing more than to take a piss all over my laptop, then I'd do it, because I can. But, will that hypothetical situation actually come true? Probably not.