Is anyone else teetering on the edge of abandoning this earthly world?

[Jabberwocky]

On the subject of withdrawing from life to pursue contemplation and spiritual endeavors; it's my understanding that in India you receive a legal standing that is similar to legally dead. Renunciates can no longer own property or do certain other things by what I've been told.This is second hand verbal info so possibly not true.
Solemn vows in Catholicism are similar by my understanding and only one order founded since the second millennium has solemn vows.Solemn vows were phased out in large part because secular authorities at some points were prone to point out that since no one in a monastic community could actually own anything monasteries and their property could be made the property of the temporal sovereign without recourse. If you are incapable of owning you can not really protest what happens to property.

I'm pretty sure there aren't many places where your religious dedication changes your legal status anymore, but maybe I'm wrong on that. Anyways the thread title and the topic of a monastic life has had me itching to post about renunciates and solemn vows.

 

[Toast to the Spirits]

No. Life on this earth for the individual will end soon enough. Why not stay and play, or try to make the world a better place before we go?

 

[modern buddha]

with the way technology accelerates, 100% of the surface of earth will be habitable (there's no reason why floating air or sea cities can't exist, automated tunnel building, etc). if things don't (literally) heat up too fast, technology will continue to carry us forward as a species.

My own instincts tell me we'll never be truly "sane", especially not before we kill ourselves in our struggle for the most perfect life.

 

[Changed]

On the subject of withdrawing from life to pursue contemplation and spiritual endeavors; it's my understanding that in India you receive a legal standing that is similar to legally dead. Renunciates can no longer own property or do certain other things by what I've been told.This is second hand verbal info so possibly not true.

What a joke. That mirrors the conversation the employee has with his or her boss:

employee: "I hate this job, I quit."
employer: "You can't quit, you're fired."


They have to have control one way or the other!

 

[HigherAwareness]

I

'm just wondering if anybody else feels this way, or has felt this way in the past. If you haven't ever felt this way at all, perhaps you could weigh in with your opinion about the matter. Any discussion should be fruitful...

I too have felt what you are experiencing. I once only had enough money to pay my bills and eat. I thought anything more would be a bit corrupting.

Now I am at a stage in my life wear I am far more materialistic. Or at least want to be. It doesen't take much to make me happy. A car with air conditioning. An apartment with hard floors and food as well as good friends is all I need.

I feel that the most important things in life are love, friends, fun, charity and peace. I say I am more materialistic now because I do dream (as a lot of us do I'm sure) of being rich one day. However I am comfortable as long as I am happy and worry free. That is all that is required for me to be serene. I just want to be happy. Wealth and all aspirations are good to but I am happy with the basics.

 

[Bezonian]

I'd say it depends on how feasible such a life would be. As long as you're not being a burden on others then go for it, but for all I know your view of giving up worldy posessions could be sponging off your parents and living in their basement. Unless you're able to live in a monastary it the only other option would be abject poverty and homelessness, and personally, I'll take the $200 bong I just bought over nirvana any day

 

[Changed]

again, I've done a Zen retreat and had one of the most meaningful three days of my life, but I'm not sure I can give up "everything."

this question cannot be answered by logical means.

I just have to do a year-long retreat and see whether I want to dedicate my life to it or not. Otherwise, I'm simply going to teeter back and forth forever.

 

[Blennz]

Take it progressively rather then trying to make a decision your not ready for in my opinion. Your trying to make a decision that your not ready for. In this moment you are not ready for it because you still desire some comforts that you have grown up believing was neccesary. You understand the concept that you will be better off devoting your life to what you are working at achieving but at the same time your whole life growing up has taught you much differently and this still has a strength in your consciousness while it may be diminishing its still there for now and will take alot of strength and devotion to your belief in order to transgress it into your ultimate belief. If you continue down your path and your faith increases because you truely desire to make it a reality then there will be no questioning it and it will will become clear to you that it is the one and only way with no doubt. At the moment though, do what feels right to you and take each moment as it comes.

I have also had the same feeling but i know that my whole life i have been further intricating a web with people i have met and they all hold a part of myself and i hold a part of them. To dismiss all that which defines me (the external) as the ego looks outward to find its innerself means to give up a large part of myself as it is the way i define who i am off others opinions. The more i attain realisation of the ego being a manifestation of the external by recognising my thoughts, behaviours and characteristics that are influenced by others to some extent the lesser the extent of influence becomes. But the part that holds me here in this materialistic world is simply that i could not abandon loved ones. My departure would have a negative influence on those that care for me. My whole life of developing relationships with those i trust and respect dearly will be abolished and the greater our bond the more pain they would feel whether im beyond that point or not has no effect on them taking it less emotionally. Why not stay here and try and try and boost the positive vibes of those that cross my path. That makes me content enough to live in a world i know is plastic.

 

[Blennz]

Ultimately i believe we will all find our own directions down our on paths once we find the path to begin with and whichever path we take so long as we are aiming our endevours in a positive direction that we believe will benefit others then we ourselves will benefit from the compassion we are devoting onto others.

 

[Dedbeet]

Why does one have to tune off from Maya?
Can't one become a master of it, attain the skill of playing it like a musical instrument?

Indeed -- there's nothing to abandon but misunderstanding.

Questioner: I cannot make out whether I am the creature or the creator of the universe.

Nisargadatta Maharaj: 'I am' is an ever-present fact, while 'I am created' is an idea. Neither God nor the universe have come to tell you that they have created you.

The mind obsessed by the idea of causality invents creation and then wonders 'who is the creator?' The mind itself is the creator. Even this is not quite true, for the created and its creator are one.

The mind and the world are not separate. Do understand that what you think to be the world is your own mind.

 

[malakaix]

again, I've done a Zen retreat and had one of the most meaningful three days of my life, but I'm not sure I can give up "everything."

this question cannot be answered by logical means.

I just have to do a year-long retreat and see whether I want to dedicate my life to it or not. Otherwise, I'm simply going to teeter back and forth forever.

Have you ever heard the term: Authentic self or Subtle self? Also known as the deeper psychic or soul.

It is the self between the ego/frontal self and the Self Absolute. The traditional model goes from ego to Self Absolute, i have always had a problem with this.. because it doesn't seem to address what awe-inspiring realization is all about where one is no longer trying to transcend the world, but simultaneously aspiring to transform it.

You may of had glimpses of the subtle self after deep meditation or a psychedelic experience.. where every thought and action was genuine in its expression, it had taken 'everything' into account before expressing itself as it was aligned with the Self Absolute, but this is usually merely a passing state and not a permanent realization, much spiritual work would need to be done to awaken to this self.

http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j25/gurupandit.asp

I would highly recommend checking out the link above; it's a manuscript between Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber on the 'three selves'; they go into much more detail and explain it much better then i ever could.

I can relate to your situation, because i find myself in more or less the same dilemma.. i'll occasionally fall into states of pure contentment on the train, while driving, working or just been at home, and during these moments i feel more then ready to leave this world, before been plunged back into ego with all its flaws and issues and again identifying with the physical. It can feel tormenting at times for me, wishing to go in one direction while paradoxically wishing to go in the opposite direction, as i am neither one, but both as one.

 

[Changed]

Having given this thread time to mature and simmer in its own juices, I've got to complain about something:

Almost every person that identifies with Buddhism has the same canned response for questions of "what should I do" or "how do I use these skills," etc... The answer always is a variation of "just be." Yes, this is dandy. Similarly, the roshi of the monastery says: "You do not need the monastery. There is no difference between the roshi and you." Yes, this is fantastic too, but then, why in the world are their roshis, monasteries, the sangha, or organized Buddhist gatherings at all?

The reason the roshi says that there is no difference between him and me is, apparently, because we're all already 'enlightened.' Everyone already possesses Buddha nature, and there is nothing to improve upon. Okay, so when I'm in the monastery, meditating for hours out of the day, eating and working mindfully, speaking very little, I feel very much like I'm there. The lesson: be able to feel (or not even feel that way, but recognize that you can feel that way) this way when you leave the monastery. Well, I've got news for you roshi: it isn't possible. Living in the world crushes any progress made in the seclusion of the monastery. Making a living, having friends, paying bills, etc...-- this is mutually exclusive of spiritual enlightenment. Riddles be damned.

I don't even know why I'm typing this, because the answer will invariably be a ridden wrapped inside of an enigma, followed by a smiley face.

 

[Changed]

and then, Mr Wilber and Mr Cohen have a discussion about this very thread:

NO WAY BACK

Wilber: Of course, we've talked about what happens when people at lower levels of development have a temporary state experience of the subtle soul, or causal Self, and then they revert next week or the week after that, and then they usually feel pretty cranky about what's gone on—


Cohen: Very cranky. Even more than cranky. You see, I'm starting to see that when people really awaken to the Authentic Self, they begin to see the world in a completely new way; they discover a new morality. Suddenly they discover a completely different relationship to mind, to emotions, to the purpose and meaning and direction of life. But when they fall out of that perspective, because maybe they didn't want to face whatever they had to face in themselves—then what they do is fall back into the level of development that they were in before they had that realization. So suddenly they're not seeing things in the new way anymore, and they embrace the psychology and worldview that they had before, and then they see the experience that they had in a higher state from the perspective of the lower stage. So of course, now it's seen in a completely distorted way.


Wilber: Unfortunately that happens all the time. [Laughing] Happened to me just this morning at breakfast.


Cohen: [Laughing] It's a very weird experience to watch this happen to people.


Wilber: Well, again, you're looking at states and stages in what you're just describing. And the thing is, stages can't be skipped. For example, take atoms, molecules, cells, organisms. An atom can't have an experience of a cell and bypass being a molecule. It just doesn't work like that. So a person can be plunged into an authentic experience of a higher state—even of the nondual—at virtually any stage that they're at. They can have that temporary state experience—but then what also happens is that if the person is ready to move to the next stage of development, that experience will help dislodge their identification with their current stage, and they will then start to actually move to that next stage, in addition to having the state experience of the nondual.

Cohen: Right!

Wilber: And that's what lights their candle, that's what gets them totally fired up, because they're getting two for the price of one. And what you were describing was somebody who has that experience and then slips back. So to give you a more fine-tuned understanding of the psychology of it, what happens is that when they come out of that experience, if they're really not stabilized in the higher stage, then their center of gravity will structurally move back down, and then they'll interpret both the higher stage structure and the nondual state from the lower stage of development.


Cohen: Right, and it can get pretty nasty.


Wilber: It gets pretty ugly because then they kind of resent what has gotten into them, and they feel rage. They've seen paradise and then seen it fade.


Cohen: Precisely. I've been on the receiving end of that rage more times than I'd like to remember. I've seen this happen to many people over the years, and that's why I started wondering, “Who is the individual?” Because I've seen that when they evolve into a higher level of development, they become a different person. They discover a trust in the inherent goodness of life; they become aware of different structures. They are awakened to the call of their own higher potential. They feel an obligation to it that is endless, and they recognize it as ultimately being a sacred obligation. And once that obligation is recognized as being sacred, it's a really big deal because then your higher conscience is awakened. Then you recognize that you can't really turn away from it without messing yourself up. Because once that happens, it's almost like, shall we say, the evolutionary developmental trajectory, or God, or whatever you want to call it, has got its hook into your heart, into your soul. And as much as we may want there to be one, there just ain't no way back.

 

[malakaix]

I can't believe i missed that in the manuscript; i must of skimmed over it and not realized its direct relation to the thread, thankyou for posting it.

 

[Cthulhu]

Living in the world crushes any progress made in the seclusion of the monastery. Making a living, having friends, paying bills, etc...-- this is mutually exclusive of spiritual enlightenment. Riddles be damned.

I disagree. It is said that in the time of the Buddha, many lay followers themselves attained Enlightenment. These are followers who were not monks or nuns and who did not live in monasteries. What they did upon reaching Enlightenment and how their lives changed isn't known, but at the very least, the path TO Enlightenment does not depend on seclusion or monastery living.

To me, the spiritual path is two-fold: On the one hand, there is the practice of meditative contemplation and the wisdom of emptiness which accompanies it; on the other, there is the practice of compassion and loving-kindness and compassion toward all sentient beings. Not that these practices are mutually exclusive, because they both involve renunciation of the self, and realization of its emptiness.
My point --> While in a monastery there may be greater capacity to practice meditation, but there is less opportunity to practice kindness and compassion. In a worldly society, there are so many many chances to renounce the self and instead serve others, to give up the hope of gaining respect, fame, fortune, material possessions, etc. because of the constant temptations. Should you live only in a monastery your entire life, you will never have to (aka get the grace of opportunity to) face those challenges.

The dalai lama has often remarked that the Buddha had to endure so much suffering and hardship on his path, and that some Buddhists nowadays expect a smooth glide into Nirvana - but this is a wrong expectation.

For me, personally, I have a job working with developmentally disabled guys and helping them with their daily lives, and I really find the practice of serving these guys and doing my job well to be of great benefit spiritually. I don't think I could get the same benefit in seclusion, because I know that in my present role, I am of much greater benefit to others.

I will agree that certain concessions MUST be made if one is to live in a normal community of human beings. Life should be simplified as much as possible, regular time has to be set aside for meditation, and no time should be wasted pursuing frivolous matters such as "chilling with friends." And yes, this is damn hard to do, but when you slip into that compassionate zone, it is all worth it.


*I don't think that this answer is any kind of a riddle, I hope you don't either **

 

[modern buddha]

^ Truth be told, my friend!

I like the book Wherever You Go, There You Are by Kabat-Zinn (I believe this is how his name is spelled).

It's almost the every day applications of Buddhism.

I know personally, I wish to renounce those things I have no use desiring: fame, money, power, and the seven deadly sins in return for peace, understanding, compassion and love. Granted, I'm not exactly satisfied with living in a suburban town. It's too... cozy here. Almost boring when no one knows each other and live in their own world of work, family, work, TV, work... This is my premise for abandoning the life of the brainwashed.

 

[Changed]

^ Truth be told, my friend!

I like the book Wherever You Go, There You Are by Kabat-Zinn (I believe this is how his name is spelled).

It's almost the every day applications of Buddhism.

I know personally, I wish to renounce those things I have no use desiring: fame, money, power, and the seven deadly sins in return for peace, understanding, compassion and love. Granted, I'm not exactly satisfied with living in a suburban town. It's too... cozy here. Almost boring when no one knows each other and live in their own world of work, family, work, TV, work... This is my premise for abandoning the life of the brainwashed.

how?

 

[Cornishman]

Until I read the OP I morbidly thought the title alluded to suicide.

For myself I don't see how indulgence in things earthly is a negative. Physical materialistic comfort is not shameful and simplicity in living is not honorable.

What end would abandoning materialism serve?

"The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least."

 

[qwe]

so we're safe in our insulated cocoons, but technology is sucking the life out of life.

a fair trade, I guess

our species is not safe until we have enough technology to prevent an asteroid from eliminating us.

as individuals, we are more safe when technology materially and intellectually empowers us (diffusing the resources that would normally be only available to the top class of society).

-

as far as "sucking life out of life" is concerned...

living to me is exploring, moving forward, creating, etc.

getting to the moon was not sucking out our life, it was the opposite.

being able to communicate across the entire globe with the internet is not sucking out our life, it's enhancing it and assisting populist movements IRL.

having excessive/absurd amounts of fun playing video games or using oxycontin (which is a technology..) are not sucking the life out of us, that's when we feel most alive

 

[Cthulhu]

^ can you see any advantages to renouncing certain technologies? Do you think it is impossible to be happy without the most advanced technology?