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Is agnosticism intellectual cowardice?

existentialcrisis

Greenlighter
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Nov 13, 2011
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Some people equate agnosticism to be a weakness, or as Richard Dawkins puts it "fence-sitting,intellectual cowardice." I find this interesting considering he formulates himself to be a 6 out of his 7 point belief scale. : \

The existence of God cannot be proven or verified, so isn't the "don't know mind" the most humble position one could take?
 
Sounds to me like Dawkins has got some ego issues. I'm not agnostic, but I think it's probably the most logical perspective available.
 
Dawkins is a very close-minded person. I wonder if he views these people (Christian) cowards?

John Napier (mathematician known for inventing logarithms)
Blaise Pascal (well known for Pascal's law (physics), Pascal's theorem (math))
John Wallis (As a mathematician he wrote Arithmetica Infinitorumis, introduced the term Continued fraction, worked on cryptography, helped develop calculus, and is further known for the Wallis product.)
Isaac Newton (He is regarded as one of the greatest scientists and mathematicians in history.)
Carolus Linnaeus (He is known as the "father of modern taxonomy" and also made contributions to ecology.)
Gregor Mendel ("father of modern genetics" for his study of the inheritance of traits in pea plants)
Louis Pasteur (Inventor of the pasteurization method, a French chemist and microbiologist. He also solved the mysteries of rabies, anthrax, chicken cholera, and silkworm diseases, and contributed to the development of the first vaccines.)
Dmitri Egorov (Russian mathematician who made significant contributions to the broader areas of differential geometry.)
Max Planck (He won the 1918 Nobel Prize in Physics and is considered the founder of Quantum mechanics.)
Edward Arthur Milne (British astrophysicist and mathematicians who proposed the Milne model)
Robert Millikan (won the 1923 Nobel Prize in Physics)
Arthur Compton (won a Nobel Prize in Physics.)
Georges Lemaître (was first to propose the Big Bang theory.)
Otto Hahn (won the 1944 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.)
Werner Heisenberg (German theoretical physicist who made significant contributions to quantum mechanics, nuclear physics and quantum field theory.)
Henry Eyring (American chemist known for developing the Eyring equation.)
C. F. von Weizsäcker (German nuclear physicist who is the co-discoverer of the Bethe-Weizsäcker formula.)
Charles Hard Townes (In 1964 he won the Nobel Prize in Physics)
 
I think it's true that sometimes self professed agnostics are indeed athiests who darn't "out" themselves as such.
I also think it to be true some of those calling themselves agnostic really do identify with the concept of agnostism, no cowardice.

I happen to be an athiest, and I thoroughly enjoyed Dawkin's book "the God Delusion" which you are alluding to.

Edit to add:
For clarity,
Dawkins distinguishes two types of agnostism
I'll begin by distinguishing two kinds of agnosticism. TAP, or
Temporary Agnosticism in Practice, is the legitimate fence-sitting
where there really is a definite answer, one way or the other, but we
so far lack the evidence to reach it (or don't understand the
evidence, or haven't time to read the evidence, etc.). TAP would be
a reasonable stance towards the Permian extinction. There is a
truth out there and one day we hope to know it, though for the
moment we don't.
But there is also a deeply inescapable kind of fence-sitting, which
I shall call PAP (Permanent Agnosticism in Principle). The fact that
the acronym spells a word used by that old school preacher is
(almost) accidental. The PAP style of agnosticism is appropriate for
questions that can never be answered, no matter how much
evidence we gather, because the very idea of evidence is not applicable.
The question exists on a different plane, or in a different
dimension, beyond the zones where evidence can reach. An
example might be that philosophical chestnut, the question whether
you see red as I do. Maybe your red is my green, or something
completely different from any colour that I can imagine.
Philosophers cite this question as one that can never be answered,
no matter what new evidence might one day become available. And
some scientists and other intellectuals are convinced - too eagerly
in my view - that the question of God's existence belongs in the
forever inaccessible PAP category. From this, as we shall see, they
often make the illogical deduction that the hypothesis of God's
existence, and the hypothesis of his non-existence, have exactly
equal probability of being right. The view that I shall defend is very
different: agnosticism about the existence of God belongs firmly in
the temporary or TAP category. Either he exists or he doesn't. It is
a scientific question; one day we may know the answer, and meanwhile
we can say something pretty strong about the probability.
In the history of ideas, there are examples of questions being
answered that had earlier been judged forever out of science's
reach. In 1835 the celebrated French philosopher Auguste Comte
wrote, of the stars: 'We shall never be able to study, by any method,
their chemical composition or their mineralogical structure.' Yet
even before Comte had set down these words, Fraunhofer had
begun using his spectroscope to analyse the chemical composition
of the sun. Now spectroscopists daily confound Comte's
agnosticism with their long-distance analyses of the precise
chemical composition of even distant stars.29 Whatever the exact
status of Comte's astronomical agnosticism, this cautionary tale
suggests, at the very least, that we should hesitate before proclaiming
the eternal verity of agnosticism too loudly. Nevertheless, when
it comes to God, a great many philosophers and scientists are glad
to do so....

Also, for clarity, the 7 point scale OP referenced (in-case people who haven't read the book want to participate in this discussion)
1 Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of
C. G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know.'

2 Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto
theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe
in God and live my life on the assumption that he is
there.'

3 Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic
but leaning towards theism. 'I am very uncertain, but I am
inclined to believe in God.'

4 Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's
existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.'

5 Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic
but leaning towards atheism. 'I don't know whether God exists
but I'm inclined to be sceptical.'

6 Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable,
and I live my life on the assumption that he is not
there.'

7 Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same
conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.'

I count
myself in category 6, but leaning towards 7 - 1 am agnostic only to
the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the
garden.
 
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It's arrogant to claim certainty either way. Personally, I'm apathetic towards it.
 
Too much agnosticism/skepticism about things would paralyze your ability to make any kind of decisions. The scientist has to believe what he theorizes might be true to get anywhere, and then observes to eliminate that belief as much as possible. If you didn't believe what you perceived was real (can't prove it), you would be afraid to make any decision's rationally.

Belief is necessary
Sceptecism is necessary
Controlled belief is necessary, as with scientifically proven theories that statistically are correct a large percent of the time.
Controlled skepticism is necessary, or you could reduce every thing down to improvable to a factual standard, and mentally paralyze yourself.
Too much agnosticism is bad when you can rationalize everything as wrong, since it cannot be proven absolutely (an impossibility imho).

In reality phenomenon can be modeled/understood collectively to develop theories that match up with perception/observation. Since our ability to observe/perceive/test things is always growing, you can't say absolutely a fact is a fact, but as our models/observability stands, a mathematical probability it will happen.

A fundamentalist agnostic will say everything we mathematically model is wrong until we understand everything. Existential anxiety that you don't know you even exist, and can't prove it. While they're right, they contribute nothing to furthering our current understanding to more accurate levels. Intellectual cowardice that we shouldn't even try.

For questions like does god exist/not exist theres no conceivable way to know either way, and fundamental agnosticism is necessary at the time, the possibility for that to change is remote, but not impossible. If dawkins thinks agnosticism is intellectually cowardly in regards to whether or not god exists, i have to disagree completely. I'd have to say to him, give me one shred of observably reproducible evidence either way, Mr. Scientist.
 
In the book he says something along the lines of when asked belief of the tooth fairy people dont hesitate to say they are non believers but asked of god they hesitate and go with agnogstic and he propossed the principle to be exactly the same and therefore questions why couldn't say they are non believers of god without hesitation here also.

Perhaps part of it is not wanting to step on toes of believers, which would show a degree of cowardice I think we agree. I don't think he meant to say that all agnostics are intellectually cowardly in their belief.
 
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The existence of God cannot be proven or verified

I disagree with your premise.

The problem is people want external proof of God. That is the wrong attitude. The only proof that is possible, and the only proof that matters, is individual proof. You are a God, too, and only you can prove or verify his existence. If you find yourself incapable or unwilling, look in the mirror and continue to do some soul searching. Or don't; it doesn't matter. Just lay the "blame" (or credit) where it should be assigned: yourself.
 
I think it definitely is -- 100%, definitely, categorically, YES!

Elaborate.

To me, it seems intellectually dishonest (and outright lazy) to say for certain whether or not an omniscient, omnipresent God-entity exists. Recognizing ignorance is not a weakness, it's actually a strength.
 
Hello Everyone.

Just floating about the forum and sew this thread. Thought I'd throw my two penny's worth in too.

I quite like what Ayn Rand said-
"To rest one's case on faith means to concede that reason is on the side of one's enemies- that one has no rational arguments to offer."

I think atheists have closed their minds in a religious manner also. It's a static unmoving idea.
Agnosticism If accompanied by an open questioning mind could be the best approach (otherwise I'd agree, it is fence sitting).
To be able to question and marvel must surely be the the only definite spiritual connection we have. A religion built around that would surely advance itself, the individual and the collective whole.

I may change my mind tomorrow though. Thankfully I'm free to do that...
 
Richard Dawkins is a total airhead fucknut. He is also the dumbest smart person there is. Someone with his extensive knowledge on biological systems and genetics should have no trouble at all in realizing just how fucking unlikely it is for life to exist in the first place, let alone continue to evolve into more complex systems. The guy is a total loon who can't see beyond his own fat ego.. academically very smart, but that doesn't count for shit if you have no real life insight to back it up. His attack on others for having a faith is fucking irritating as hell. Infact all militant atheists are fucking irritating as hell and I wish they would just take one hit of NN-DMT or do some deep meditation, and then just STFU.

I have time for agnostics but generally I don't for atheists as they tend to be intellectually walled up behind some kind of scientific framework and refuse to admit a position of ignorance. I think the agnostic position is a humble position to take definitely.
 
KamMoye hit the nail on the head with the statement about external versus internal proof.
 
I quite like what Ayn Rand said-
"To rest one's case on faith means to concede that reason is on the side of one's enemies- that one has no rational arguments to offer."

I love Ayn Rand's ability to write, but her philosophy is close-minded and circular. It attacks a orthodox, strawman version of God.

Faith is not without reason. As soon as you realize that her entire philosophy crumbles.

KamMoye hit the nail on the head with the statement about external versus internal proof.

Thanks. :)
 
it's probably the most logical perspective available.

Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. It's safe, and no great "stand" is taken, but so what? I could see how some might construe it as cowardice though. It all comes down to one's passion on the subject, really.
 
In the book he says something along the lines of when asked belief of the tooth fairy people dont hesitate to say they are non believers but asked of god they hesitate and go with agnogstic and he propossed the principle to be exactly the same and therefore questions why couldn't say they are non believers of god without hesitation here also.

i think of it like this. to suggest that the tooth fairy exists is totally laughable, why not the same with god? and, even if there was a god, what basis is there for regarding them as a supreme being worthy of worship or any kind of regarding as superior (whatever the word for that is)? if i was god i wouldn't have created humans/animals and all that suffering, fucking selfish prick.
 
NN-DMT or do some deep meditation, and then just STFU.

I have done these things (or analogues of these things). I am an atheist.

/fallacious diatribe
 
Why does god have to be a supreme creator in the sky? I think that's laughable. But that doesn't mean that there is no god.
 
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