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OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Benzos INSTANT benzo crossover and in TROUBLE
- Thread starter katy1954
- Start date
Moderator, I know you are being kind.
to clarify-have some nueropathic pain in feet-the nuerologist,nor any other dr knows why I have it -dont have fibro.
-I had pancreatitis once and the internists at hospital didnt know why either(i dont drink).It is listed as a side effect for gabapentin and lyrica so I thought it was that.
-I have a Gp and he doesnt know why this is happening.
-In my province there is a 1 yr wait for a family dr.2 yrs for a specialist.
-your advice is sound but to find another dr here who is experienced in these things seems impossible at the moment that is why i went to the hospital.
-if you live in the US you get to choose drs is that right?
I understand you and I need an experienced dr,it isnt easy is what I am saying.I will try with the dr I have.and get on a list.
I do hear you and ty for the good advice.
to clarify-have some nueropathic pain in feet-the nuerologist,nor any other dr knows why I have it -dont have fibro.
-I had pancreatitis once and the internists at hospital didnt know why either(i dont drink).It is listed as a side effect for gabapentin and lyrica so I thought it was that.
-I have a Gp and he doesnt know why this is happening.
-In my province there is a 1 yr wait for a family dr.2 yrs for a specialist.
-your advice is sound but to find another dr here who is experienced in these things seems impossible at the moment that is why i went to the hospital.
-if you live in the US you get to choose drs is that right?
I understand you and I need an experienced dr,it isnt easy is what I am saying.I will try with the dr I have.and get on a list.
I do hear you and ty for the good advice.
^Besides the double vision you mentioned, anxiety, and insomnia, could you please describe your symptoms in detail?
If you have neuropathic pain, then why would you jump from lyrica to gabapentin? Gabapentin is nowhere near as strong, therefore its likely that it's not treating your condition properly.
I sympathize with you regarding Canada, and being stuck with a family doctor, but if you feel your not getting the appropriate care with your current GP, go to a walk-in clinic. You'll probably have to wait some time depending on your province and city, but you may find a doctor who's more sympathetic to your situation.
If you have neuropathic pain, then why would you jump from lyrica to gabapentin? Gabapentin is nowhere near as strong, therefore its likely that it's not treating your condition properly.
I sympathize with you regarding Canada, and being stuck with a family doctor, but if you feel your not getting the appropriate care with your current GP, go to a walk-in clinic. You'll probably have to wait some time depending on your province and city, but you may find a doctor who's more sympathetic to your situation.
Swimmingdancer
Bluelight Crew
katy1954 - I live in Canada too. I already gave you a link to find GPs accepting new patients in your province - did you even look? Here it is again: go to this website and type in the name of your town/city to find a GP accepting new patients: College of Physicians and Surgeons Alberta Physician Search
Even if it takes a little while to find a good doctor at least start working on it now because your problems are not improving on their own and I don't think you seem to be getting the medical help you need and deserve. In the meantime go to a walk-in clinic or hospital until you can find someone to help you and/or keep telling the doctor you do have about your problems - your doctor needs to know what is going on with you and that you're not ok. Are you still seeing your psychiatrist?
Chromophobia - according to her previous posts, for example the following one from May 2012 she wanted to get off the Lyrica because she thought it was responsible for her physical and mental health troubles:
But according to her other thread the problems (bloating, GI problems, anxiety, etc) got even worse when she switched to gabapentin. She also wrote in Jan "Ativan is causing hyperventilation and so many problems". It is hard to understand the drug history by only reading this one thread (actually it's hard to understand even from reading all the past posts as well).
katy1954 - I am really not sure how to help because I feel like you don't actually take anyone's advice
. And/or that we aren't really qualified or able to help you properly. I'm really sorry for what you're going through 
Even if it takes a little while to find a good doctor at least start working on it now because your problems are not improving on their own and I don't think you seem to be getting the medical help you need and deserve. In the meantime go to a walk-in clinic or hospital until you can find someone to help you and/or keep telling the doctor you do have about your problems - your doctor needs to know what is going on with you and that you're not ok. Are you still seeing your psychiatrist?
Chromophobia - according to her previous posts, for example the following one from May 2012 she wanted to get off the Lyrica because she thought it was responsible for her physical and mental health troubles:
katy1954 said:
But according to her other thread the problems (bloating, GI problems, anxiety, etc) got even worse when she switched to gabapentin. She also wrote in Jan "Ativan is causing hyperventilation and so many problems". It is hard to understand the drug history by only reading this one thread (actually it's hard to understand even from reading all the past posts as well).
katy1954 - I am really not sure how to help because I feel like you don't actually take anyone's advice
. And/or that we aren't really qualified or able to help you properly. I'm really sorry for what you're going through
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^ Well I read her threads, pretty much your summaries of them.
Kathy, being on benzodiazepines for 20 years, then adding pregabalin, then switching to gabapentin, then stopping, and starting again is causing all of your issues. The pregabalin (Lyrica) and the gabapentin make benzodiazepines stronger, if you reduce the dosages of the pregabalin/gabapentin your basically reducing the strength of your benzodiazepine which is sending you into immediate withdrawals. As I told you, they're not going to work for a certain period of time.
Withdrawal #1: You've jumped from pregabalin to gabapentin meaning you are partly in pregabalin withdrawal.
Withdrawal #2: You've reduced the strength of your benzodiazepine, you are partly in benzodiazepine withdrawal.
You can stop the gabapentin now, since your already on a low dose, and allow your body to recover, and gain back the natural effects from your benzodiazepines. I've been there, it takes months sometimes, and those months seem like a long time, because this withdrawal makes you feel as if your sick, dying, and insane, but you're not.
You can also stop the gabapentin, taper the benzodiazepine to a very low dose and then stop, do so at whichever time frame you feel comfortable, if you stop the benzodiazepine before the gabapentin, I'm sure the withdrawal will be much easier for you. Gabapentin, when taken after stopping benzodiazepines can take away 50-75% percent of the withdrawal symptoms. In addition, by the time your done your tolerance for gabapentin will be low again, so you'll get the best possible effects from it. Once your over the benzodiazepine withdrawal using the gabapentin, start slowly decreasing the gabapentin dosage until you stop.
I think you're on quite a big cocktail of medications and that could be contributing to all of this, but you need to stop worrying, and start acting. Set out a detailed plan for yourself, write it down, follow it strictly if your intention is to be drug free, especially from these drugs, it won't happen in days, or weeks, but months. Patience is your best friend, time is your worst enemy.
Option #1: Stop the gabapentin and regain your natural tolerance to benzodiazepines, then taper the benzodiazepines and stop.
Option #2: Stop the benzodiazepines through a taper, then use the gabapentin to aid your benzodiazepine withdrawal.
If your willing to follow this advice, then I'd be happy to work out a detailed plan with you. I've been through a similar situation with the pregabalin/gabapentin/benzodiazepine vicious cycle.
Also, why not make an appointment with an addictologist, write down some of the advice people have given you, discuss it with him, and work out a plan in detail.
Kathy, being on benzodiazepines for 20 years, then adding pregabalin, then switching to gabapentin, then stopping, and starting again is causing all of your issues. The pregabalin (Lyrica) and the gabapentin make benzodiazepines stronger, if you reduce the dosages of the pregabalin/gabapentin your basically reducing the strength of your benzodiazepine which is sending you into immediate withdrawals. As I told you, they're not going to work for a certain period of time.
Withdrawal #1: You've jumped from pregabalin to gabapentin meaning you are partly in pregabalin withdrawal.
Withdrawal #2: You've reduced the strength of your benzodiazepine, you are partly in benzodiazepine withdrawal.
You can stop the gabapentin now, since your already on a low dose, and allow your body to recover, and gain back the natural effects from your benzodiazepines. I've been there, it takes months sometimes, and those months seem like a long time, because this withdrawal makes you feel as if your sick, dying, and insane, but you're not.
You can also stop the gabapentin, taper the benzodiazepine to a very low dose and then stop, do so at whichever time frame you feel comfortable, if you stop the benzodiazepine before the gabapentin, I'm sure the withdrawal will be much easier for you. Gabapentin, when taken after stopping benzodiazepines can take away 50-75% percent of the withdrawal symptoms. In addition, by the time your done your tolerance for gabapentin will be low again, so you'll get the best possible effects from it. Once your over the benzodiazepine withdrawal using the gabapentin, start slowly decreasing the gabapentin dosage until you stop.
I think you're on quite a big cocktail of medications and that could be contributing to all of this, but you need to stop worrying, and start acting. Set out a detailed plan for yourself, write it down, follow it strictly if your intention is to be drug free, especially from these drugs, it won't happen in days, or weeks, but months. Patience is your best friend, time is your worst enemy.
Option #1: Stop the gabapentin and regain your natural tolerance to benzodiazepines, then taper the benzodiazepines and stop.
Option #2: Stop the benzodiazepines through a taper, then use the gabapentin to aid your benzodiazepine withdrawal.
If your willing to follow this advice, then I'd be happy to work out a detailed plan with you. I've been through a similar situation with the pregabalin/gabapentin/benzodiazepine vicious cycle.
Also, why not make an appointment with an addictologist, write down some of the advice people have given you, discuss it with him, and work out a plan in detail.
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-on lyrica 3-1/2yrs-gained a lot of weight -then belly swollen like 9mos pregnant this year march couldnt take it -and feet swollen 2 -couldnt think with the lyrica& benzos-woke hung over-hard time breathing with abdomen in diaphram
-was hyperventilating in am since march dr thot sleep apnea and ativan -he wasnt sure
saw heart dr,saw sleep dr -sleep apnea-
-tapered lyrica until oct-used gabapentin to lesson w/d-1-300mgs only nightly
-then oct31 pancreatitis-almost died
then dec31 abruptly stop gab -
-SERIOUS diareahh and anxiety -dr thot flu maybe but no other symptoms
-metallic taste in mouth
-no appetite-lost 30lbs since dec31 to now
-depression and no appetite still
-upped benzos to help from 3.5 ativan and .5 valium to 4mgs ativan
-developed severe itchy scalp still
-finally hosptial psyche ward 12 days ago
-switched to clon
-immediate blurry vision -a bit better now-
-very drugged out first days
-now social anxiety ,aragophobia -no appetite,very itchy scalp and sometimes itchy everywhere
-sometimes wake up shaking
-
hospt said liver enzymes high-dr should check saw Gp said no big deal.
-feel like i am losing my mind I know it sounds crazy but i do
-oh and 2mgs clon at 10pm wake up after 3hrs wake again -wake again-use c-pap but slept better on ativan
sorry so long but its bad.
Edema (a lot of fluid trapped in your body) is a very common symptom of gabapentin/pregabalin.
Benzodiazepines, and even lyrica/gabapentin, or the combination of both can cause respiratory and ventilation problems (breathing problems). They can also worsen sleep apnea.
A very rare symptom of using pregabalin/gabapentin.
All very normal and extremely common symptoms of withdrawal from pregabalin/gabapentin/benzodiazepines.
This condition, itchy scalp (scalp pruritus) can happen from neuropathic origin. The gabapentin/pregabalin treat neuropathic disorders. When you stop pregabalin/gabapentin you become very sensitive to neuropathic disorders. In your case, it has manifested in an itchy scalp. For some people, their feet/arms/legs hurt, like a stinging/burning/itching sensation. Again, normal.
All normal symptoms of benzodiazepine/pregabalin/gabapentin withdrawal. The depression, the lethargy (tiredness), and the anxiety I'm sure are the worst. The physical symptoms such as the itchy scalp and the pain will get better quickly, but the psychological symptoms, such as feeling you're dying, or being chased by a mob of lions, will take time.
I'm sure the reason he said "no big deal" is because your taking a lot of medication, it's normal to have elevated liver enzymes, even though the pregabalin/gabapentin are metabolized by the kindeys, the opioids you take/have taken, or the benzodiazepines could be responsible.
Diplopia (double or blurry vision) is a normal symptom of gabapentin/pregabalin withdrawal and use.
My questions:
Where in that timeline did you start taking the gabapentin again?
How did you confirm the diagnosis of neuropathic pain?
What were you given in the psychiatric ward?
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-Began 100 gabapentin in hospital feb4-psyche ward
-nueropathic pain by nuerologist but he said it was mild,couldnt figure it out -almost 4 yrs ago
-psyche ward began me on 100gab am and 100pm at night
-then on feb 6abrubtly swittched my ativan 4mgs and .05v to 2mgs clon at night and 1mg clon am-kept gabapentin 100 with each dose
-note I came off paxil in 2009 nov but the tingling in my feet began before that.
-also polydrugged by shrink for 13 yrs until I questioned them and just culsnt take much more
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ok I read last part of previous post,youre very kind to answer.
option 1 or 2 -
thank you for saying you would help me.
There is no addictionologist here,at least not addiction people that will listen to you.they believe in 10day detox from benzos.
or just cut down.My shrink said they do use gabapentin.
I am sorry I sound so confused.But I am scared.sorry.
option 1 or 2 -
thank you for saying you would help me.
There is no addictionologist here,at least not addiction people that will listen to you.they believe in 10day detox from benzos.
or just cut down.My shrink said they do use gabapentin.
I am sorry I sound so confused.But I am scared.sorry.
Well first thing you need to decide is the extent of your neuropathy. Is it peripheral or central, if it's peripheral it can be reversed through diet, vitamins and excercise.
If it's central it's permanent, and you need to see a neurologist to confirm its extent through a neurological examination and an MRI, a CT SCAN, nerve conduction test and several other methods. Depending on how severe it is, you have to make a decision whether you want to use natural remedies to treat it, or you want medication.
If you can live with the neuropathy, the tingling/burning/loss of sensation or your doctor says its local, or you want to use over the counter medications or non-dependence causing drugs to treat it. then you need to work out a plan on how you want to stop the gabapentin and the clonazepam.
First thing you need to decide is which drug do you want to stop first. I would recommend you stop the benzodiazepine since you've been on them for a long time. You decide how quick you want to stop, the faster you decrease your dosage, the more discomfort you'll feel, but the quicker the process.
Step 1:
Stop the gabapentin (so you can use it after you're done with your benzodiazepine taper).
Step 2:
Start your clonazepam taper. First thing you do is decide how long of a period you want to do it over. Say you choose a 2 month rapid taper. 3 milligrams divided by 60 days is 0.05 milligrams per day. So if you want to drop your dosage every 5 days take 0.05 x 5 days which equals 0.250. This means you reduce your dosage by a quarter of a 1 milligram pill every 5 days or an eighth of a 2 milligram pill.
To make it simple:
(current dosage - 3 milligrams) / (amount of days for entire taper) = (amount per day) x (number of days between dosage drop) = (milligram dosage to drop)
So to follow the example above:
This is for 60 days and a drop every 5 days:
(3) / (60) = (0.05) x (5) = (0.250 milligrams) - so that means you drop 0.250 milligrams every 5 days
This is for 90 days and a drop every 6 days:
(3) / (90) = (0.033) x (6) = *(0.200 milligrams) - so that means you drop 0.200 milligrams every 6 days for 90 days
Step 3:
Starting from 24-36 hours since you take your last clonazepam dosage, start taking the gabapentin. I would suggest you talk to your doctor about upping your dosage during that period. What I've seen in detoxification centers is usually 300 milligrams x 3 daily. Follow that regimen for a month, maybe more, maybe less depending on when you first start to feel comfortable. As soon as that happens, start tapering the gabapentin. I would suggest a long taper for that, because the benzodiazepine withdrawal lingers for a while, so the longer you take while tapering the gabapentin, the more likely the benzodiazepine withdrawal will have gone. Taper over a 2-4 month period following the same formula for the benzodiazepine taper.
Step 4:
Once you finish tapering the gabapentin, take a VERY low dose benzodiazepine for a maximum of a week to two weeks only if needed. If you feel decent which you most probably will, because you've tapered sensibly, there should be no need for a benzodiazepine at all.
There are of course other options, like a very rapid taper at a detox center using phenobarbital or carbamazepine, but you seem to be somewhat sensitive to discomfort, and you've been on these drugs for a long time. If and when you do plan this out, write it down, show it to your doctor, review it with him, have him confirm it.
Like I said before, patience is your friend, time is your enemy.
Empty your private inbox please. it seems to be full.
If it's central it's permanent, and you need to see a neurologist to confirm its extent through a neurological examination and an MRI, a CT SCAN, nerve conduction test and several other methods. Depending on how severe it is, you have to make a decision whether you want to use natural remedies to treat it, or you want medication.
If you can live with the neuropathy, the tingling/burning/loss of sensation or your doctor says its local, or you want to use over the counter medications or non-dependence causing drugs to treat it. then you need to work out a plan on how you want to stop the gabapentin and the clonazepam.
First thing you need to decide is which drug do you want to stop first. I would recommend you stop the benzodiazepine since you've been on them for a long time. You decide how quick you want to stop, the faster you decrease your dosage, the more discomfort you'll feel, but the quicker the process.
Step 1:
Stop the gabapentin (so you can use it after you're done with your benzodiazepine taper).
Step 2:
Start your clonazepam taper. First thing you do is decide how long of a period you want to do it over. Say you choose a 2 month rapid taper. 3 milligrams divided by 60 days is 0.05 milligrams per day. So if you want to drop your dosage every 5 days take 0.05 x 5 days which equals 0.250. This means you reduce your dosage by a quarter of a 1 milligram pill every 5 days or an eighth of a 2 milligram pill.
To make it simple:
(current dosage - 3 milligrams) / (amount of days for entire taper) = (amount per day) x (number of days between dosage drop) = (milligram dosage to drop)
So to follow the example above:
This is for 60 days and a drop every 5 days:
(3) / (60) = (0.05) x (5) = (0.250 milligrams) - so that means you drop 0.250 milligrams every 5 days
This is for 90 days and a drop every 6 days:
(3) / (90) = (0.033) x (6) = *(0.200 milligrams) - so that means you drop 0.200 milligrams every 6 days for 90 days
Step 3:
Starting from 24-36 hours since you take your last clonazepam dosage, start taking the gabapentin. I would suggest you talk to your doctor about upping your dosage during that period. What I've seen in detoxification centers is usually 300 milligrams x 3 daily. Follow that regimen for a month, maybe more, maybe less depending on when you first start to feel comfortable. As soon as that happens, start tapering the gabapentin. I would suggest a long taper for that, because the benzodiazepine withdrawal lingers for a while, so the longer you take while tapering the gabapentin, the more likely the benzodiazepine withdrawal will have gone. Taper over a 2-4 month period following the same formula for the benzodiazepine taper.
Step 4:
Once you finish tapering the gabapentin, take a VERY low dose benzodiazepine for a maximum of a week to two weeks only if needed. If you feel decent which you most probably will, because you've tapered sensibly, there should be no need for a benzodiazepine at all.
There are of course other options, like a very rapid taper at a detox center using phenobarbital or carbamazepine, but you seem to be somewhat sensitive to discomfort, and you've been on these drugs for a long time. If and when you do plan this out, write it down, show it to your doctor, review it with him, have him confirm it.
Like I said before, patience is your friend, time is your enemy.
Empty your private inbox please. it seems to be full.
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dhopeless
Bluelighter
I used to take 4mgs of klonopin a day and my doc switched me over to the same dose of ativan, which first of all is half as potent by mg, and secondly is a very different benzo. I went through hell until I convinced my doc to switch me back to the klonopin. Even taking over 10mgs of ativan would not make me feel normal.
Swimmingdancer
Bluelight Crew
katy1954 - Thanks for providing more info about your medication and diagnosis history, that is helpful. I agree with Chromophobia. As he said in more detail, it seems likely that some of your problems are/were caused by the drugs you've been taking, some are caused by stopping/changing drugs, and some are due to other health conditions. I also think it's a good idea as he said to try to mention some of the possibilites Chromophobia brought up to your doctor. I also still really recommend that if your doctor is not giving you adequate help that you try to find a new doctor accepting patients, through the link I posted above.
You didn't answer about if you are still seeing your psychiatrist?
In answer to your question: Opioids include opiates and synthetic opiate-like drugs, which bind to opioid receptors in the brain and body. For example morphine is the most well-known opioid drug (others include codeine, hydrocodone, oxycodone, hydromorphone, and so on). Buprenorphine is an opioid, I believe you mentioned you were on the buprenorphine patch before?
You didn't answer about if you are still seeing your psychiatrist?
In answer to your question: Opioids include opiates and synthetic opiate-like drugs, which bind to opioid receptors in the brain and body. For example morphine is the most well-known opioid drug (others include codeine, hydrocodone, oxycodone, hydromorphone, and so on). Buprenorphine is an opioid, I believe you mentioned you were on the buprenorphine patch before?