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In the wake of Paris...

Journyman16

Journyman16

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
1,226
I came home from the hospital to an upset wife. Paris. Who the fuck are these people that can do such things? Over a cartoon apparently...

So, from the deep anger I am feeling that someone could get my missus so upset she greets me at the door in tears, please go have a read of this...

How To Suck At Your Religion

I take your fanaticism and I reply with humour... and truth. :D
 
^
The best way to "promote" your faith is by action.
Actions speak for themselves and are louder than words.
If you don't conduct yourself where someone wants to willfully follow your faith,
you have failed IMO.
Your light should lead the way out of darkness.

These guys think they have the way out of darkness.
I disagree.
But J-man,
if you believe you have the truth you have just conceded absolute truth exist.
Do you accidentally get to truth?
Or is their a correct path to take?
If so, what is it?
 
A correct path doesn't mean it IS Truth. It's like happiness - it's not a destination you arrive at, it's a journey. Truth is just such a journey because we live in bodies that limit what we can know. So what we can do is decipher in which direction Truth might lie and go that way. Along the path we find things that either confirm we are heading the right way or that we aren't.

The Human path is to adjust to how life and our experiences guide us. At it's depth I guess that is my problem with Belief - Believers have already decided what Truth is and nothing will sway them from it. They will kill others for it and elevate themselves as special because of it. And if their Belief disagrees with the objective reality around them, they will choose to live in a subjective world instead where what they do is right, no matter who gets hurt.

For some reason BL will not allow sigs in a profile, but I normally have, "Never doubt there is Truth, just doubt that YOU have it!" I try to live by it. But because I have reasoned my way to where I stand, you will need to do more than just cast a few rocks in my direction, you would need to show where the underlying evidences of Truth I have come across are incorrect.

Most people aren't capable of that because they argue from Belief and in generalities.

I am truly doubtful the gunmen are true Muslims. I cannot see how ANY real Muslim could see this act as anything but harmful to Islam. The only logical consequence to this is provoking the West to yet more violence against Muslims and we have done more than enough to them already and that's with more than half the populations of western countries against the various wars and destabilisations. Imagine what might come if the population becomes convinced these are scum who need to be eradicated? Imagine the Western military/Intelligence complex given a free hand to go wipe out the heathen monster who kill indiscriminately?

It's bad enough now, where they have to program the population to allow 'modest' response (I know it doesn't seem like it, but really, given what could be done, the response, horrific though it is, is a modest one) but just imagine what it would be like if say 90% of US, UK, France, Germany etc. ALL started protesting on the streets for the termination of Islam?

I'm on the fence but I'm thinking this is false flag.
 
So do you think what these guys did was absolutley wrong or not?
And does absolute truth exist or not?
Not -does an absolute path to get to truth exist?..... I mean does absolute truth exist ?
 
People really get religious politics and religious spirituality mixed up, don't they?

I don't care about politics. It's a distraction. Just because wars were fought in Jesus' name doesn't mean Jesus was for those wars.

I can't believe this kind of ideology can be used on the public.
 
No one exists in isolation. There are people who know who these fucktards are.. friends, family, community, neighbours. I'm getting a bit tired of people apologizing for the Muslim community which isn't doing enough to out these dickheads and send them packing back to a third world nation where they would thrive better.
 
People really get religious politics and religious spirituality mixed up, don't they?

I don't care about politics. It's a distraction. Just because wars were fought in Jesus' name doesn't mean Jesus was for those wars.
Click to expand...

+1

(Well said.)
 
Peace enforced through the gun is not all that peaceful I suppose...:\
 
methamaniac said:
So do you think what these guys did was absolutley wrong or not?
And does absolute truth exist or not?
Not -does an absolute path to get to truth exist?..... I mean does absolute truth exist ?
Click to expand...
Why do you want absolutes? Is it not enough to be human with all the choices and chances to find new ways, different paths? Absolutes seem to be the means to kill, rape, pillage and rampage because they make people choose between two and only two extremems. This makes it very easy to program anyone who sees the two absolutes as how things are - all you have to do is make it apparent that 'those guys over there' are NOT in YOUR absolute group and you can justify anything at all against them.

Seeing the world in a human way is to see the grey between the black and white and to realise all black has a little white and all white has a little black. Anything else and it seems to me we are wasting intelligence and might as well go join the chimps... if they would have anyone so limited in their tribes.

And no, I refuse the easy path to say these guys are absolutely wrong... or right for that matter. To me that's a coward's choice, a path that makes your decisions for you and lets you condemn anybody not 'just like you' to any kind of misery and degradation you might want.

It's a harder choice to see your enemy as a Man or Woman and to make the choice to try to see why they do what they do.

But it is at least the civilised thing to do.

If we let them force us into their black and white world then they win, no matter who dies or lives. The neo-cons in the US won because of 9/11. Got their agenda running and removed the protection of the Constitution AND the Bill of Rights in one fell swoop - now the USA is governed by a criminal gang and with Jeb Bush being groomed as next PotUS, it looks like a 20+ year control of the US by the Bush Dynasty is set to keep on rolling over everyone else's right and freedoms.

I can only wonder how long it will be before we get supposedly Western nations invaded for disagreeing with the US - Russia is already on the firing line and rumours of the US wanting to take them then China are running rife across the net. Personally I think if the US DOES tackle Russia China will ally with Russia and take the US out - whether the neo-cons are insane enough to go nuclear over that I don't know. I think they are certifiable so an 'If we can't own it nobody can' attitude would seem suited to their madness.

It may come down to whether the US people are willing to tear down their Govt to prevent a dead planet floating in space as testament to how stupid humans can be.
 
Journyman16 said:
Why do you want absolutes? Is it not enough to be human with all the choices and chances to find new ways, different paths? Absolutes seem to be the means to kill, rape, pillage and rampage because they make people choose between two and only two extremems. This makes it very easy to program anyone who sees the two absolutes as how things are - all you have to do is make it apparent that 'those guys over there' are NOT in YOUR absolute group and you can justify anything at all against them.

Seeing the world in a human way is to see the grey between the black and white and to realise all black has a little white and all white has a little black. Anything else and it seems to me we are wasting intelligence and might as well go join the chimps... if they would have anyone so limited in their tribes.

And no, I refuse the easy path to say these guys are absolutely wrong... or right for that matter. To me that's a coward's choice, a path that makes your decisions for you and lets you condemn anybody not 'just like you' to any kind of misery and degradation you might want.

It's a harder choice to see your enemy as a Man or Woman and to make the choice to try to see why they do what they do.

But it is at least the civilised thing to do.

If we let them force us into their black and white world then they win, no matter who dies or lives. The neo-cons in the US won because of 9/11. Got their agenda running and removed the protection of the Constitution AND the Bill of Rights in one fell swoop - now the USA is governed by a criminal gang and with Jeb Bush being groomed as next PotUS, it looks like a 20+ year control of the US by the Bush Dynasty is set to keep on rolling over everyone else's right and freedoms.

I can only wonder how long it will be before we get supposedly Western nations invaded for disagreeing with the US - Russia is already on the firing line and rumours of the US wanting to take them then China are running rife across the net. Personally I think if the US DOES tackle Russia China will ally with Russia and take the US out - whether the neo-cons are insane enough to go nuclear over that I don't know. I think they are certifiable so an 'If we can't own it nobody can' attitude would seem suited to their madness.

It may come down to whether the US people are willing to tear down their Govt to prevent a dead planet floating in space as testament to how stupid humans can be.
Click to expand...

Absolutes exist. As I said we may not know what all absolutes are absolutely but they do exist.
2+2=4 is absolutely true.
This is not the same as saying everything or statement has an absolute. Statement of 'Tomatoes are bad tasting' has no absolute.
If you stick your arm unprotected in a running wood chipper you will absolutely cut your arm.
If you stick your arm unprotectected in a woodchipper while it is running it will absolutely cut your arm everytime you do it.
True for you and everyone all the time, has no chance of change, and has no regards in respect to perspective.
-An absolute truth.

Evil is evil absolutely everytime it takes place.
We can disagree if something is evil or not but evil absolutely exists.
I can say without a doubt what those guys did was absolutely evil. Time and perspective will never change my view. You can have a different perspective but in this case only one of us can be correct.
You can still disagree with what I said but
if you honestly (really think about it)
believe we can both be right in this instance,
than you have zero ground to stand on in declaring anything more or less good or evil than another.
You should remove terms from vocabulary.
Maybe refer these situations as "situations"
or "random occurrences" or "happenings".
As follows, you should have no position on raping,
killing, or pillaging. You ought to be neutral because perspective could change your definition.
Likewise you couldn't call someone "cowardly".
Cowardly compared to what? If someone doesn't think what they did is corwardly than it would not be cowardly. Relativity reigns with this world view.
Cowardly doesn't exist.

Grey areas are what they are -- grey.
They are hard to define----not undefinable.
I think what are you are "scared" of are generalizations
Yes, most definelty we should not apply absolutes to a group in this instance.
 
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Living in a world of grey areas does not mean judgement cannot be reached. Just that one has to be aware of the choices and limits being made before one decides. Trying to determine what I can and can't have positions on simply misses the point of removing the black&white blinkers worn by most people these days.

To be Human means to be able to look at a situation and make choices based SOLELY on that situation, EVERY TIME insted of reacting as if THIS situation is just like THAT one from last year. To use the funnels most people are trained into having all their time in school means abdicating the right to be Human. By letting outsiders tell you how to divide the world you hand them the control over your actions.

Rape doesn't have to be an absolute to be wrong nor does any situation involving the enforcement of one human over another. But being a Human means being able to look at the entire situation and apply actions that respond ONLY to this situation. For example, suppose the rape occurs because the girl comes from Greece or Macedonia and has little or no English. When the incident begins she nods her head so he goes right on in.

How was he to know that in her country a nod of the head is 'No'? Do we shoot him for not knowing that? Or do we take that into account in dealing with the situation?
 
Journyman16 said:
Living in a world of grey areas does not mean judgement cannot be reached. Just that one has to be aware of the choices and limits being made before one decides. Trying to determine what I can and can't have positions on simply misses the point of removing the black&white blinkers worn by most people these days.

To be Human means to be able to look at a situation and make choices based SOLELY on that situation, EVERY TIME insted of reacting as if THIS situation is just like THAT one from last year. To use the funnels most people are trained into having all their time in school means abdicating the right to be Human. By letting outsiders tell you how to divide the world you hand them the control over your actions.

Rape doesn't have to be an absolute to be wrong nor does any situation involving the enforcement of one human over another. But being a Human means being able to look at the entire situation and apply actions that respond ONLY to this situation. For example, suppose the rape occurs because the girl comes from Greece or Macedonia and has little or no English. When the incident begins she nods her head so he goes right on in.
Click to expand...


I don't know. Little bit of a stretch to think you can't convey no with actions.
But still, it is evil and truth existing that is really the question.
I'm not sure on what is absolutley true on every single possible good or evil action.
When in doubt , I leave that up to my conscience and God. What you would call "grey" areas in some cases may in fact not have any color existing. Likewise some things are black and white and have no grey. This would be kin to the the same pole ends of two magnets repelling.
There wouldn't be any combination of N/n / S/s area existing to even speak about.
I believe it is possible as I have stated (or rather hopefully implied) for something to not be absolute, and absolutes still exist.
Things can just exist with zero value
and things can exist with a 100 % value.
Can things exist with let's say 80% value?
Not in repsect to truth, good, and evil.
You stick a lie in a statement full of truth it becomes a lie.

Like I said, I believe something is either evil or it isn't. Sometimes we know for sure sometimes might be harder to tell.
But I don't see any way of an action being a little or partly evil-- like I see no way of being little bit pregnant.
I don't want to get caught up in semantics as it seems we often do.☺
My point is absolutes can and do exist.
My view shouldn't in any way affect you if you truly
disagree.
It's my view relative to me so that makes me right--right?
But not absolutley right that is- ;)
Good debate
 
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I think Evil, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. (or as we say in Australia, Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder :D)

We cannot know what is Evil, nor even what is absolute Evil, without perfect Knowledge and while we might have come a long way from the cave, we are nowhere near that level.

As an example, I see the situation God put Adam and Eve in as evil - to know in advance how someone will behave then set a test that if they get it wrong, will punish ever person ever to be born is just plain evil. God claims perfect knowledge, so therefore the Adam and Eve story (and a lot of others) is not what we've been led to believe.

But that is because that story is told given only one perspective. The Religious one. And I don't see the lessons it is supposed to impart, I see a failed telling of a story. The hero is actually the Serpent, because he gave Man the ability to be Human. God comes across as rather petulant and reactive - Humans come to their fulfillment as self-determining creatures and all God is concerned about is to make sure they don't also get everlasting life and 'be like us.'

Without the Serpent we would not be who we are, but instead would most likely be hairless apes wandering around in a daze waiting for God to show up so He will talk to us. The Serpent gave us a chance to fulfill our destiny. To me, if you argue that God was somehow thwarted in his plans by the Serpent's actions, then God is not the God he is made out to be.

And if the plan was, all along, to have Adam and Eve to become human, then the story itself is suspect and just a control mechanism to get us all believing we are guilty of something from birth, which becomes a stick to beat us with so we stay under the domination of the Church.

So even the 'absolute' evil of the Serpent turns out not to be so.
 
^This is a whole other debate.
But I will point out that if you concede God has infinite/"supreme" knowledge than it would make anything that is possible, possible for God.
We have absolutely zero idea what "possible" even means really.
We are the created not the creator.
What position is a finite being in to judge a no where near fully known infinite entity?
I guess you either accept things are the way they are for a reason and God has it under control or you don't. For some reason God requires obedience out of us. He offers eternal life free from sin in return.
Maybe we have to flow into God to have eternal life. Maybe once seperated from God you can not exist but for a period of time before the energy keeping you alive has to flow back to the source, and when it does it needs to purified first.
Could be somehow sin is an unbalance of the homeostatis of God. He will tolerate this for a time but will not tolerate it for ever. Somehow it seems it affects all of God's creation, so it is not just to his other creations to allow sin to exist.
I think we both agree good and evil exist.
We just differ on what exactly those are and what if any implications this entails.
 
There is more we differ on... to take just one statement, (or pair)
God requires obedience out of us. He offers eternal life free from sin in return.
Click to expand...
There is no way to know this at all. The only references come from a book so compromised by alteration into a control manual to subjugate the people that we cannot trust ANYTHING it says. Just as it takes only a tiny amount of leaven to make bread, and they vanish in the mix, so the tiny bits of Truth in the bible and other Judaic religious tomes are almost impossible to find and usually given in such a way as to twist the meaning entirely.

Who says God requires our obedience? The bible and the Priests. The Christian Church is clearly a man-made invention with hierarchy built in so some few can rule over the rest. THEY are the ones who have programmed all Christendom to believe God requires both worship and obedience.

But if we can believe any of it, the words of Jesus the Christ seem to point at an entirely different way to view things, a path that is one of self-determination and not subject to having to worship or obey.

I will always suspect systems that require us to elevate other people as somehow better and I will refuse any message from them because of the contagion possibilities as they mishandle the truth for their own gain.

And I note, my thoughts about who benefits pointing away from Islam are starting to be voiced around the net as people notice discrepancies in what they have been told and shown.

e.g.
 
I don't know about not being able to intuitevely know what is good and evil. I seem to remember even as a small child being intently aware of when something doing something would be evil. I don't agree that is unknowable, more that you can choose to ignore, deny, or dissociate from it.

When people are first getting into drugs they might convince themselves drugs don't need to be evil or harmful, for instance. They might not NEED to be, but when they're abused or used too regularly they invariably turn out to be.

But you really need to get over your obsession with the Old Testament God and how evil he is. This isn't helpful at all and won't lead anywhere for you. The Old Testament God is a completely different God from the New Testament. In fact, I don't identify him as God at all, and would never read the Old Testament.

And the Church doesn't have any "dominion" over us any more, that is an old story. The churches are pretty much abandoned and we have full freedom of religion. I see the Godlessness of our society after the decline of Christianity as more of a problem.

Not because Christianity is an ideal religion but because people in general at least had some form of spiritual guidance.
 
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I think it might be dangerous to believe the Church no longer has dominion over us. It would seem difficult to NOT accept the ties between the Vatican, the Royal bloodlines and the families such as the Rothschilds and others. The links trace right through to the leaders of countries involved in manipulating the world for the convenience of Corporations.

To dismiss their influence in our lives is to become victims of them I think.

While saner people recognise the disconnect between the OT God and the NT God - who by the way has a significantly less amount of presence - he is not at all visible in scripture except as talked about, and given Paul is the one who talks the most, I would think is a VERY suspect entity - almost the entire Christian world views the NT one as the same being as the OT one. The apparent schizophrenia seems to bother them not at all.

And both Islam and Judaism both still follow the OT God.

I would also debate the existence of any 'spiritual guidance' issuing from the Christian Church - I've mentioned it before but I seriously doubt any truth can come from institutions which place an intercession between a person and God. Which pretty much counts out every Church that has a pastor, priest, bishop minister etc.

Almost every guru, sage, messiah and prophet has reiterated that the path is a personal one. I'd view with deep suspicion anything told me by people who wish me to be subservient to what they have decided I should know.
 
But does the Vatican yield any power over your mind?

There's not ideal religion. If you wait for an ideal religion to come along you'll never get anywhere. And religion shouldn't be the focus, it's just an inducer.

If you have the potential for spiritual growth and God-connection you can achieve it within the frames of any religion. It doesn't really matter what religion you were born into. Religions themselves are too general and superficial to matter that much when it comes to your inner spiritual life.

Anyway, the people who complain the most about religion also seem completely unable to look away from it.

It's like they can't see the forest for the trees.
 
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